Members Anderton Posted July 10, 2012 Members Share Posted July 10, 2012 I'm really enjoying this thread for the extremely perceptive comments. It's sort of an "anti-Idiocracy" moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hard Truth Posted July 11, 2012 Members Share Posted July 11, 2012 I know what Beck is saying, though. Firewire may be great when it works, but I don't know that I've ever had a more unstable connection. My old PCI connection was far more stable than firewire. If one must go digital, D-Sub connectors, PCIe connectors/cards, Toslink or Thunderbolt if it ever comes around and proves to be stable, I don't know, whatever....but firewire..... Odd that you should say that, of all the technical problems I have had with my medium budget project studio over the years, firewire has been the least of them. The one time firewire seemed to be a problem, it turned out to be a broken firewire device (Yamaha interface). Perhaps I have had such good luck with firewire because of mostly using MOTU devices. I routinely record 20 channels of audio through firewire at 44.1/24bits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rekel Posted July 11, 2012 Members Share Posted July 11, 2012 And why do kids these days all need six independent stereo in-ear monitor mixes? Well Mike, I'm most certainly not a kid but I can't imagine what a mono in-ear mix would sound like. I joined a professional 9 piece band some 15 years ago and this was the first time I was forced to use an in-ear system and played with them for 4 years doing well over 120 gigs a year using this system. I really had to get used to it at first but the sound I had on this system was as good or better than their CD's. I played several instruments in this band and also did backing vocals. It was great to have the 2 backup singers on one side and my voice on the other. Also, having the guitar player and keyboard player on one side and my instruments on the other was perfect. The only thing I regret is that I usually turned up my beltpack volume too loud most of the time since I missed the feeling of the sound pressure from amps behind/around me. Another advantage was that we always used the same sound crew/PA every gig and it didn't matter where we played, this system always sounded great as soon as I plugged in. All we needed was a line check although, and unfortunately, sound checks usually lasted at least an hour and a half because of insecurity from the lead singer in this band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BushmasterM4 Posted July 11, 2012 Members Share Posted July 11, 2012 If someone cant tell the difference between stereo and mono sound, they shouldnt be on stage and or recording. I can send mono headphone mixes to my live room via the aux channels on my mixer/interface. And I can send a DAW mix (I set it up in stereo) to the live room headphones. And everyone loves the stereo mix better. But I cant give them "more me" with the DAW mix, only with the mono mixes off my aux sends. So thats why the Behringer Powerplays interest me, Stereo !!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 11, 2012 Members Share Posted July 11, 2012 If someone cant tell the difference between stereo and mono sound, they shouldnt be on stage and or recording. I can send mono headphone mixes to my live room via the aux channels on my mixer/interface. And I can send a DAW mix (I set it up in stereo) to the live room headphones. And everyone loves the stereo mix better. But I cant give them "more me" with the DAW mix, only with the mono mixes off my aux sends. So thats why the Behringer Powerplays interest me, Stereo !!!!!! I'm not saying they can't tell the difference in a comparison, or don't prefer stereo. I just don't see how if you send people a mono mix and tell them "that's why you get" why they couldn't be OK with that if that's the house system. Personally, I'd love a stereo IEM mix. I'd love to listen to my keys and the guitars in stereo. But we don't have the channels for that. So I prefer mono rather than hearing more of one instrument panned to one side than the other. With this 32 channel board, I guess running everything in stereo is an option. With our 16 channel A&H MixWiz monitor board, it sadly is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rekel Posted July 11, 2012 Members Share Posted July 11, 2012 If someone cant tell the difference between stereo and mono sound, they shouldnt be on stage and or recording. BTW, I just took a closer look at that Behringer and at that price point, it most definitely is going to be a game changer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BushmasterM4 Posted July 11, 2012 Members Share Posted July 11, 2012 BTW, I just took a closer look at that Behringer and at that price point, it most definitely is going to be a game changer. On my wish list. And what few reviews I have read, they say they work great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rekel Posted July 11, 2012 Members Share Posted July 11, 2012 On my wish list. And what few reviews I have read, they say they work great. I will most certainly check this thing out, myself I have two behringer pieces here. A very old Composer MDX 2000 which has been performing flawlessly for the last 15 years or so and I recently bought a ULTRAGRAPH PRO FBQ1502 because I needed a cheap and quick solution for a certain occassion and that thing works as advertised for a silly $94,-. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Beck Posted July 11, 2012 Members Share Posted July 11, 2012 Odd that you should say that, of all the technical problems I have had with my medium budget project studio over the years, firewire has been the least of them. The one time firewire seemed to be a problem, it turned out to be a broken firewire device (Yamaha interface). Perhaps I have had such good luck with firewire because of mostly using MOTU devices. I routinely record 20 channels of audio through firewire at 44.1/24bits. That's nice and all, but We should always keep in mind that our personal anecdotes about our own systems are of little value on their own. My system is outstanding... and so is my creativity and musicianship... and the results I get recording. But that's just me. I've never been one to say, "If I can do it then anyone can." Because it's not true. Even most musicians my age or older are total morons when it comes to recording, so it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rekel Posted July 11, 2012 Members Share Posted July 11, 2012 Odd that you should say that, of all the technical problems I have had with my medium budget project studio over the years, firewire has been the least of them. The one time firewire seemed to be a problem, it turned out to be a broken firewire device (Yamaha interface). Perhaps I have had such good luck with firewire because of mostly using MOTU devices. I routinely record 20 channels of audio through firewire at 44.1/24bits. I've never run into a problem with firewire, so far. I recently upgraded a studio of a friend of mine with a fast Windows computer, Cubase and a Yamaha N12 and it works without any problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MrKnobs Posted July 11, 2012 Moderators Share Posted July 11, 2012 Personally, I'd love a stereo IEM mix. I'd love to listen to my keys and the guitars in stereo. But we don't have the channels for that. So I prefer mono rather than hearing more of one instrument panned to one side than the other. With this 32 channel board, I guess running everything in stereo is an option. With our 16 channel A&H MixWiz monitor board, it sadly is not. Well, let me count the ways I've experimented with just this situation. I love stereo too, so when I play with wedges I just bring two small amps running in stereo and most of my monitoring comes from them. In a very small place I'll use just one amp and DI the other side of the stereo to the house guy who then puts THAT in the wedge and mains. Since the place is small, my amp sound is abouth half of the FOH and half of what I hear on stage, with the wedge / mains delivering the other side so everyone, including me, hears my sound in stereo. When I use IEMs I frequently am happy with the stereo FOH mix in my ears because the real problem was never getting ME to be louder it was to our vocalist to have enough "MORE ME" in that wonderful person's IEM mix so the rest of us can hear a more reasonable mix. I'm saying I didn't need more ME I needed less HER. And IEMs let her have herself and nearly nothing else in her ear buds and that gives us all a better playing experience. Back when I was a Shure product tester and the PSM 200s weren't officially out yet, I discovered that having an ambient mic clipped right on my person (as opposed to one or two set up on stage and fed to us by the sound person) was amazingly useful. That let me walk to my sweet spot on the stage and have as little or as much of that stage ambience I wanted. Best of both worlds. Now if only someone (NOT SHURE ) made a stereo IEM system with a jack on the belt pack for an ambient mic I'd be in heaven. Both my PSM 400s and PSM 200s are now illegal, so I'm in the market for a new system and it would be awesome if it had that feature. Terry D. P.S. And just to return this thread to topic, I'll make the observation that this thing won't be a game changer in the coffee house, at least not because of it's ability to mix 16 tracks and / or record 32. There aren't 16 places to put mics on a coffee house act, let alone 32. The game changer for the coffee house was either the Yamaha all in one powered mixer plus speakers on a stick, or else it was the $49 Behringer 6 channel disposable mixer. (Calling it "single use" would be a little unfair. You usually get 10 -12 shows out of one of those before it dies). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 11, 2012 Members Share Posted July 11, 2012 When I use IEMs I frequently am happy with the stereo FOH mix in my ears because the real problem was never getting ME to be louder it was to our vocalist to have enough "MORE ME" in that wonderful person's IEM mix so the rest of us can hear a more reasonable mix. I'm saying I didn't need more ME I needed less HER. And IEMs let her have herself and nearly nothing else in her ear buds and that gives us all a better playing experience. I am definately intrigued by your earlier post of doing a "full mix" on one side and a "more me" mix on the other. I think I will do that with my keys and guitar so I can turn myself up as needed without needing to go to the mixer and I'll suggest a similar mix to the other people in the band. I had never thought of that before, but it certainly makes sense and is a great way to utilize the stereo feature which right now is virtually useless with everyone essentially doing a "dual mono" mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rekel Posted July 11, 2012 Members Share Posted July 11, 2012 I am definately intrigued by your earlier post of doing a "full mix" on one side and a "more me" mix on the other. I think I will do that with my keys and guitar so I can turn myself up as needed without needing to go to the mixer and I'll suggest a similar mix to the other people in the band. I had never thought of that before, but it certainly makes sense and is a great way to utilize the stereo feature which right now is virtually useless with everyone essentially doing a "dual mono" mix. http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/MA400.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 11, 2012 Members Share Posted July 11, 2012 http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/MA400.aspx I actually use one of those at home for a web-radio I have next to my bed but the earphone output isn't loud enough for whatever reason. (I have a RadioShack pillow speaker I use so I don't disturb the wife). But I think I can cover the "more me" deal on stage simply by panning what I need to pan on the A&H mixwiz. Good idea though for those who might need it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted July 11, 2012 CMS Author Share Posted July 11, 2012 I was just saying that, if we're talking about a band showing up to a house board, if you send them a mono signal are they really going to know? Especially if they are young "kid" bands? Probably not, unless they're used to hearing stereo from their own board in their rehearsal garage. But is a house system in a venue where a "kid" band would be playing likely to be equipped to handle multiple in-ear mixes anyway, even in mono? If they showed up with their own monitor rig, perhaps a rack of wireless transmitters, and asked for six stereo feeds, I'd be honest with them and tell them what I could provide and what I couldn't. If they balk, I'd send them to the club's manager. "Show me the rider in the contract." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted July 11, 2012 CMS Author Share Posted July 11, 2012 Well Mike, I'm most certainly not a kid but I can't imagine what a mono in-ear mix would sound like. I really had to get used to it at first but the sound I had on this system was as good or better than their CD's. I played several instruments in this band and also did backing vocals. It was great to have the 2 backup singers on one side and my voice on the other. Also, having the guitar player and keyboard player on one side and my instruments on the other was perfect. That's not stereo, it's two channels. I think that hearing like that would be very distracting, but I guess with enough time, like you, I'd get used to it. But then you can't expect an engineer who's never worked with you to give you a headphone feed like that, at least not without some time to set it up. And he'd probably not touch a knob once you were happy. I accept, though, that there can be many ways of working and this is yours. Another advantage was that we always used the same sound crew/PA every gig and it didn't matter where we played, this system always sounded great as soon as I plugged in. This is not the same as a band walking into a bar, or a band playing in church and whatzisname is working the sound this week. For every band like yours, there's probably 500 mixers sold to people whose first forum post starts out something like "I don't know a lot about mixers, but .... " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MrKnobs Posted July 11, 2012 Moderators Share Posted July 11, 2012 Probably not, unless they're used to hearing stereo from their own board in their rehearsal garage. But is a house system in a venue where a "kid" band would be playing likely to be equipped to handle multiple in-ear mixes anyway, even in mono? If they showed up with their own monitor rig, perhaps a rack of wireless transmitters, and asked for six stereo feeds, I'd be honest with them and tell them what I could provide and what I couldn't. If they balk, I'd send them to the club's manager. "Show me the rider in the contract." The Shure PSM200 transmitter has combo XLR / 1/4" inputs, two channels, so you can set up your own IEMs without needing to touch the sound guy's board at all. You just insert the little transmitter in the line between your mic feed and / or instrument. The mic and instrument continue on to him as if nothing has changed, and you have volume knobs to adjust the two on your transmitter. Add a cheap $10 radio shack lav mic to the belt pack for ambient sound and you're all set. Or you can pay $125 for the Shure lav mic which has an inline volume control but the two settings "LOW" and "HIGH" on the belt pack have always been good enough for me. I have the Shure lav and a RS lav, either is fine. Terry D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rekel Posted July 11, 2012 Members Share Posted July 11, 2012 Good idea though for those who might need it! Cheers. I am also looking into getting one of these: http://www.bax-shop.nl/personal-mixer/dap-audio-mmix-4-personal-monitormixer/product-details.html#!prettyPhoto (it's in Dutch but hopefully you get the idea) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted July 11, 2012 CMS Author Share Posted July 11, 2012 I'm not saying they can't tell the difference in a comparison, or don't prefer stereo. I just don't see how if you send people a mono mix and tell them "that's why you get" why they couldn't be OK with that if that's the house system. I get people at traditional folk festivals who don't know a thing about sound, but they get a questionnaire that's supposed to help the stage crew. One of the questions is "How many monitor mixes do you need?" This is too technical for most of the performers who, if there are five members of the band, will answer that with "five." I've never had a request for in-ear monitors but once, and that band brought their own rack of gear and their own tech to set up their mixes. And he expected mono feeds, it's what he got, and he and the band were happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted July 11, 2012 CMS Author Share Posted July 11, 2012 BTW, I just took a closer look at that Behringer and at that price point, it most definitely is going to be a game changer. And I'll ask you, as I asked at the beginning of this thread, what game will it change, and how? You think every band is going to start using stereo in-ear monitors? Remember, there's more to an IEM system that just enough output buses to feed it. It may not improve the sound of the band playing through it, but it will definitely change the level of the technician operating the mixer. Any boob can get a working mix out of a simple analog console with a good ear and good taste. I don't know about with a console like the Behringer X32. There are too many ways to screw up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted July 11, 2012 CMS Author Share Posted July 11, 2012 Now if only someone made a stereo IEM system with a jack on the belt pack for an ambient mic I'd be in heaven. I saw a system like that at NAMM a couple of years ago. I can't remember who made it, maybe Future Sonics or Westone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted July 11, 2012 CMS Author Share Posted July 11, 2012 I am definately intrigued by your earlier post of doing a "full mix" on one side and a "more me" mix on the other. I think I will do that with my keys and guitar so I can turn myself up as needed without needing to go to the mixer. You have a volume control for each earphone on your system? Or volume and pan? I guess that would work, but I think an unbalanced mix like that would be really distracting. But then I hate sticking things in my ears, so I guess I'll never find out what I think I'd like or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 11, 2012 Members Share Posted July 11, 2012 You have a volume control for each earphone on your system? Or volume and pan? I guess that would work, but I think an unbalanced mix like that would be really distracting. But then I hate sticking things in my ears, so I guess I'll never find out what I think I'd like or not. It's a volume and pan. I could put more of "me" in one ear and just balance towards that if I need to turn myself up. I can get that you would think such an unbalanced mix would be distracting---I would have thought so too at first. But after working with IEMs for awhile and working with different mixes, as well as often pulling one ear out when I can't hear some things in my ears quite to my liking, I now don't think it would be distracting at all. It's amazing how much and how quickly the human ear/brain adjusts to different mixes as needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted July 11, 2012 Members Share Posted July 11, 2012 And now we Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Temple of Light Posted July 11, 2012 Members Share Posted July 11, 2012 Now if the quality of musicianship would just follow suit...what passes for pop radio airplay these days is f-ing pathetic...I miss bands like Zeppelin, Yes, Steely Dan & others that actually push the edge ofthe theoretically possible, everything now is twice baked potato formula and for the most part, crap. College radio is the only refuge for hearing anything really cool anymore and most of what they are playing is 20 years old too.Take a real music theory class or two before you start recording, the rewards are obvious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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