When is a (Fender, Gibson, etc.) no longer a (Fender, Gibson, etc.)?

[Flatspotter]

All the recent discussion about counterfeit/fake guitars got me thinking. When you start changing parts on a stock guitar, at what point is that guitar no longer the "real thing"? Most people here would agree that putting together a partscaster, slapping a Fender decal on the headstock and selling it as a genuine Fender is counterfeiting/wrong/immoral/illegal. But what about a guitar with aftermarket parts?

 

Let's look at my 1982 Fender '57 Reissue Strat as an example. Here is a list of the original parts still on the guitar:

 

Tuners

Body

Output jack

Trem springs

Trem claw

 

Here's a list of replaced parts:

 

Pickups (Kinman)

Bridge (Callaham)

Whammy bar (Callaham)

Pickguard (Warmoth)

Neck (Genuine Fender '57 RI neck, obtained directly from Fender)

Knobs

Electronics

Straplocks

 

So, is it still a Fender? It has a Fender body and neck, and says Fender on the headstock. Is it still a '57 RI?

 

Now, suppose I take the neck off this guitar and put it on a partscaster. Is that a Fender? It has a genuine Fender neck,and says Fender on the headstock. I think most people would say it's not. Now, suppose I put a genuine Fender body on the partscaster. Is it a Fender now? It has a genuine Fender body and neck. As a matter of fact, it's just like my '57 RI, but it got there through a different path.

 

For the sake of argument, let's disregard whether any of these guitars would be for sale or not. I'm not going to sell my '57 RI, but if I did, I would make it clear that it's not stock, and would list all the replacement parts. That's just the kind of person I am; I'm not out to screw anyone.

 

Consider a third case: a bone stock Fender Strat with a replacement aftermarket neck. It only has one replacement part, but it's the one that says Fender on it. Is this a Fender? Probably not, right? But it only has one part that's not stock. Granted, the neck is an important part, but so are the pickups, and if I replace the pickups on a stock Strat, I think we'd all agree it's still a Fender.

 

A fourth case: a bone stock Fender Strat with a replacement aftermarket body. Still a Fender? It is, right? It says Fender on the headstock. Or should the Fender decal be removed?

 

Certainly this is a slippery slope argument, but I'm curious what you all think about this.

 

Discuss. Preferably violently.

[Kap'n]

If the body and neck don't match, it's a partsocaster.

 

If it doesn't have the original pickup configuration (addition or removal of pickups that don't resemble the original in design), or had body modification to fit aftermarket parts, I would consider it a "highly modified" version of the original

[sgt mukuzi]

same with Charvels and Hamers, they really arnt charvels or hamers anymore because they are made by fender. i yawn at all the new models, people bitching about not finding the new candy apple blue charvel, its not at all a charvel mate, its a fender with a charvel sticker one the headstock.

[xrleroyx]

If you change where the guitar is built, then it is no longer an X.

 

MEANING:

 

If I stripped my Fender strat and replaced everything besides the neck and body, it's still a fender guitar - made by fender - with aftermarket parts.

 

No matter how many genuine Gibson USA parts you duct tape to your epi, it's still an epi (not that it's a bad thing).

[Grantus]

 

same with Charvels and Hamers, they really arnt charvels or hamers anymore because they are made by fender. i yawn at all the new models, people bitching about not finding the new candy apple blue charvel, its not at all a charvel mate, its a fender with a charvel sticker one the headstock.

 

 

So are all Epiphones Gibsons with Epiphone on the headstock?

[kayd_mon]

Tough to say, I think. For me, if the body and neck are stock, it's still "genuine." The rest I see as mods/upgrades/etc. But really, if you have a partscaster that's made from all (or nearly all) Fender parts, I'd still call it a Fender, but I'd still qualify it as a partscaster.

[cratz2]

Yeah, I think I agree with the 'neck and body should match' thing. I'm a partscaster guy though... three of my four 'good' strats are partscasters.

 

This guitar is about as modded as a guitar can get and still looks close to stock. Literally the only stock parts are the body, the neck, the neck plate, the neckplate screws, the baseplate of the bridge, the baseplate screws and the output jack plate, but not the actual jack itself. Everything else was replaced... but I still consider it an Ibanez.

 

[Steadfastly]

If some of the parts are changed you may also have a better guitar. At that point who cares what it is except a better guitar.

[Kap'n]

If you change where the guitar is built, then it is no longer an X..

 

By this logic, any Telecaster not built in the building in the B/W picture

 

 

is not a Telecaster.

[BoneNut]

 

When is a (Fender, Gibson, etc.) no longer a (Fender, Gibson, etc.)?

 

 

I think the important question is..."Does it matter?"

 

I have a parts caster. Neck from a Fender Deluxe V neck, Fender Classic 50s body, Fender CS69 pups and Callaham hardware. Is it a Fender? I don't really give a {censored}. What's important IMO, is that it's mine and a Stratocaster through & through.

 

We are seriously hung up on brand names around here.

[Doctor49]

for me its only important when in the context of faking /counterfeiting for profit.

 

But I would say as soon as you substitute any part for the original XXXX guitar, it deserves to be correctly described as a modified XXXX.

XXX guitars built from parts outside the normal production of the XXX company are just that and should be described as such whoever made the parts.

[honeyiscool]

I think if it's a Fender body with a Fender neck, it's a slightly different kind of Partscaster than a non-Fender Partscaster. Everybody calls Blackie a Fender Strat.

 

Is there such a thing as a matching Fender body and neck anyway, especially when you take it from two guitars of the same model? I had a Fender Mustang I assembled from two Japanese Fender '65 RI Mustangs. I took the bridge and neck from one, body from the other, and reassembled them, such that I had one perfect Mustang and one pretty good Mustang, instead of two pretty good Mustangs. I ended up selling both of them eventually, and the buyers obviously didn't care because my selling price wasn't Partscaster-prices. It was definitely Fender-prices.

 

Fender bodies and necks were never matched, they just both came off the line at the same time. Do Fender bodies even have a serial number that matches the neck? I've taken apart so many bolt-on Fenders, and I've never noticed that on most of my instruments. People probably can't even tell if you swap necks between two guitars of the identical specs.

 

I think when you start matching parts that were built for different specs, you have more of a Partscaster, and at some point, it becomes a full blown one. There's a slight bit of negative connotation with Partscasters, and I just don't think all Partscasters are equally Partscaster, and I don't exactly know when it goes from matching superior to parts to a Frankenstein. But just like Potter Stewart's definition of pornography, "I know it when I see it."

[Doctor Morbius]

So are all Epiphones Gibsons with Epiphone on the headstock?

Only if you're trying to sell them on my local Craig's List. Of course, Squiers are Fenders also.

[xrleroyx]

By this logic, any Telecaster not built in the building in the B/W picture is not a Telecaster.

 

How does that make any sense at all? I didn't say where the guitar was designed or where it originated from. What I was trying to say (and maybe I didn't make any sense, I've been up for 3 days due to school and work obligations) is that if the guitar is made in a Fender plant for example, it is a Fender.

 

I'll go into a little more detail:

 

Let's use an Epiphone Les Paul Standard. I don't know if Epiphone uses OEM's like Samick but even so, consider the following:

 

The guitar was manufactured by Epiphone. You buy the guitar. You agree that is is an Epiphone Les Paul Standard. You don't really like the hardware, but you're a big fan of your Gibson Les Paul so you buy all Gibson USA parts (truss cover, tuners, pups, pots, literally everything). Does that make it a Gibson Les Paul? No, it makes it an Epiphone Les Paul with upgraded parts.

[Spike Li]

A modified guitar is a modified guitar... how is this a hard concept to understand??

 

You have a strat and change a part, guess what? That makes it a strat with a changed part!

 

You have a Guitar and do X, Y and Z to it, that makes it a Guitar that has had X, Y and Z done to it- not something completely new or different...

[Kap'n]

How does that make any sense at all? I didn't say where the guitar was designed or where it originated from. What I was trying to say (and maybe I didn't make any sense' date=' I've been up for 3 days due to school and work obligations) is that if the guitar is made in a Fender plant for example, it is a Fender.

 

What if it's a Fender-owned plant in Ensenada?

 

Or a Fender owned plant in Japan, China, India, Korea, or Indonesia?

[soundcreation]

How does that make any sense at all? I didn't say where the guitar was designed or where it originated from. What I was trying to say (and maybe I didn't make any sense, I've been up for 3 days due to school and work obligations) is that if the guitar is made in a Fender plant for example, it is a Fender.

What if it's a Fender-owned plant in Ensenada? Or a Fender owned plant in Japan, China, India, Korea, or Indonesia?

 

not even. Fender doesn't own a factory in japan or korea. In japan they contract guitar factories to build them guitars.

[Flatspotter]

A modified guitar is a modified guitar... how is this a hard concept to understand?? You have a strat and change a part, guess what? That makes it a strat with a changed part! You have a Guitar and do X, Y and Z to it, that makes it a Guitar that has had X, Y and Z done to it- not something completely new or different...

 

But if you keep changing parts, eventually you have a guitar with no original parts, and it's no longer a Fender (assuming you're using non-Fender parts). The question here is, at what point can you no longer call it by its original brand/model?

 

So far, the consensus seems to be that once you change something made of wood, you've crossed the line.

[WRGKMC]

If the instrument comes from a Gibson factory, its a Gibson, if it comes from a Fender factory, its a Fender.

They are brand names, no more no less. If you mod a gibson, its a midded Gibson, If you mod a Fender its a modded Fender.

If you build a clone, its a clone, If you have some parts that are Fender or Gibson in that build, Its a Frankenstein.

Thats all there is to it. You can build a clone that sounds just like or even better than a Fender or Gibson,

but that doesnt make it one because it wasnt manufactured by those companies.

[Kap'n]

 

How does that make any sense at all? I didn't say where the guitar was designed or where it originated from. What I was trying to say (and maybe I didn't make any sense, I've been up for 3 days due to school and work obligations) is that if the guitar is made in a Fender plant for example, it is a Fender. not even. Fender doesn't own a factory in japan or korea. In japan they contract guitar factories to build them guitars.

 

 

That was a "what if?"

 

Anyway, When FMIC bought Fender from CBS, they essentially bought the trademarks, not the factory. Any original manufacturing equipment they might have now they had to source on the open market. In fact, when the Fullerton plant closed down, the only factory producing Fender-branded guitars was Fuji Gen in Japan. Are those Fenders? What about stuff in Corona? It's not like they packed up the Fullerton factory and moved it down the road.

 

I don't have an opinion one way or another, it's just funny to hear people rationalize why their instrument is a "real" Fender, and why somebody else's isn't.

[soundcreation]

 

That was a "what if?" Anyway, When FMIC bought Fender from CBS, they essentially bought the trademarks, not the factory. Any original manufacturing equipment they might have now they had to source on the open market. In fact, when the Fullerton plant closed down, the only factory producing Fender-branded guitars was Fuji Gen in Japan. Are those Fenders? What about stuff in Corona? It's not like they packed up the Fullerton factory and moved it down the road. I don't have an opinion one way or another, it's just funny to hear people rationalize why their instrument is a "real" Fender, and why somebody else's isn't.

 

 

ahhh...OK...

 

Yeah I agree. I don't really care one way or another. I buy japanese copies anyway.