If Gibson Were Gone..............

[STRANDMAN]

mispost

[smorgdonkey]

Holy zealots Batman!!

[elsupermanny14]

 

An idiotic poll, for sure. Seems designed mostly to precipitate another {censored}storm of HCEG Gibson bashing. I think it goes without saying that Gibson has a history of making industry-changing design innovations and they make excellent guitars. Their electric and acoustic guitars are terrific. Let's face it, if you were honest with yourself, you would like to have a Les Paul, an SG, or a 335, if not one of each.

 

 

100% on the money. Everyone here would be more than happy to own any of those guitars. If you can't afford something, it's easy to develop a bias against it. I'm not calling anyone out on their economic situation, but honestly, we are going through harsh economic times right now. Everyone is affected in one way or another and has had to make cut backs. Getting an Agile or any other Asian copy is more affordable and attainable than dishing out a grand for an LP Studio or SG. It's natural to develop negativity towards things you can't afford or have.

 

This applies to everything. Look at the Occupy Wall Street movements. It's driven mostly by unemployed college grads in their 20s and 30s. It's all the weed smoking people who majored in English, History, Liberal Studies, and other useless majors who can't find a job. Last time I checked, Silicon Valley can't find enough computer scientists and engineers, yet kids today still do not chose those majors. They continue to pursue liberal arts degrees and then cry about not find a job. Then they go out and protest "the system" because they can't find jobs. They start to develop a dislike for those who have succeeded, but are not owning up to the fact that spending $100k at a private school for a degree in graphic design takes you no where in this day and age.

 

Everyone is pissed at the 1% because it's not fair for them to be so rich, yet I don't see a whole lot of people going out and trying to start their own businesses. the CEO from Starbucks was once homeless, Larry Elison (Oracle), Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, all these guys dropped out of school to pursue companies. Hell, Donald Trump, whether you like him or not, has had NINE separate bankruptcies. These people took major risks to start a business. If you consider how many students are willing to drop out of college to pursue a business opportunity or how many of you are willing to go through multiple bankruptcies you might understand why only 1%-5% of America has about 80% of the cash. But in the end everyone hates the 1% because they will not share their money with the rest of us.

 

So after a long rant of everything, what it comes back to, is we all develop negative biases towards things we can not afford, have, or be. I'm not a Gibson owner nor a fan bay, but I like their guitars and I want a Les Paul. And honestly the only people I see Gibson bashing are the guys who do NOT have Gibson in their sig... I don't see very many Gibson owners turning against their guitars. That might say something as well.

 

Sorry for the long rant, feel free to tear it apart, feel offended or whatever. If you're a supporter of occupy wall street, I just have this to tell you. I'm going to walk into my office on Monday, enjoy my nice cushy office job, love my income, and be thankful that I majored in economics with a strong focus in mathematics. Then I'm going to laugh at all of the liberal arts kids protesting downstairs and laugh about it with my college buddies who work in finance, engineering, and aerospace.

[Deadbeat Son]

 

Are you absolutely sure of this? I'm not saying you are not. It's just that others have said otherwise. Of course, Gibson would not likely admit it because they want to keep their mystique. I am interested to have any other details you could share with us. Thank you, Steadfastly

 

 

As am I interested in any actual evidence you can provide to the contrary and not just libelous accusations.

[photon9]

I think it will be a sad day if Gibson is ever gone. They are fully capable of making extremely nice instruments. Unfortunately the last few years the QC has been pretty bad. I've seen and played some pretty bad Gibsons. But when you find a really good one it's a revelation that's hard to put into words. If Henry would only take some of the good advice coming out of this thread (obviously ignore the trolls ) they would put a lot more Gibsons out there that people will pick up and just go wow! But Henry's a damn bean-counter, perhaps that's what Gibson needed in the mid-80s, and he really did help improve the perception of the brand back then but now they really need someone that is a visionary, someone that can bring on a new golden age. Screw all the gadgetry and gimmicks, just put out the most amazing guitars they can. That's what they need, and I don't think Henry will be the one to do it.

[bsman]

Since I don't have a Gibson, I'm staying out of the argument. I will say, however, that one certain result of a Gibson Chapter 11 would be fewer multi-page threads on Gibson QC...

[Flintc]

I'm no authority, but from what I've seen and heard, Gibson is far from a model business. Do they even make Tobias basses anywhere anymore? Try to find out! I called Gibson customer "support", and they'd never heard of Tobias basses. "Oh, we make those? Where?"

The Tobias bass story is characteristic. Gibson bought out Michael Tobias somewhere around 1990. At the time Gibson was on the verge or bankruptcy. So Gibson did what they've done with Steinberger, Baldwin, Kramer, etc. etc. etc. They made fast bucks selling cheap crap until the customers figured out that these brands weren't anywhere near what they used to be. Once the goodwill was sucked dry, Gibson dropped them.

Local dealers complained that in order to carry the Gibson-label Les Paul, Gibson forced them to buy somewhere on the order of $20,000 worth of inventory little of which had any chance of selling anytime soon. Not one local dealer (out of 4 or 5 around here) that used to carry Gibson, does so anymore. They all carry Fender. And Ibanez, and Samick.

One local dealer the other day had (on consignment) a like-new Gibson Les Paul Supreme and an Epiphone Les Paul Elitist. Except for color, these looked identical, so I asked what the differences were. He told me there were two differences: finish (Gibson was lacquer, Epi was poly) and price. BIG price difference. Same wood, same construction, same weight, same pickups, same electronics otherwise, same machine heads, etc. Maybe the poly finish is a little bit more durable anyway.

Gibson will stay in business so long as there's a good healthy demand for the Les Paul at eye-gouging prices (for an instrument generally quite inferior to competitors like Carvin or PRS).

[jhorne]

 

One local dealer the other day had (on consignment) a like-new Gibson Les Paul Supreme and an Epiphone Les Paul Elitist. Except for color, these looked identical, so I asked what the differences were. He told me there were two differences: finish (Gibson was lacquer, Epi was poly) and price. BIG price difference. Same wood, same construction, same weight, same pickups, same electronics otherwise, same machine heads, etc. Maybe the poly finish is a little bit more durable anyway.

 

 

Your local dealer has no idea how a Les Paul Supreme is constructed if he thinks it has the same construction as an Epiphone Elitist (or pretty much any other Les Paul for that matter).

[bsman]

Your local dealer has no idea how a Les Paul Supreme is constructed if he thinks it has the same construction as an Epiphone Elitist (or pretty much any other Les Paul for that matter).

 

Yeah -- for one thing, the Gibson is "chambered" and the Elitist isn't...

 

[kulardenu]

Is Gibson Teflon? What about Hostess Twinkies? I equate Kodak in Chapter 11 in the same breath as Gibson. Kodak the company that put photography in the hands of ordinary people. A much larger piece of Americana than Gibson... Hope ya kept some nice Polaroids of your Gibbys to sell on flea bay...

[STRANDMAN]

100% on the money. Everyone here would be more than happy to own any of those guitars. If you can't afford something, it's easy to develop a bias against it. I'm not calling anyone out on their economic situation, but honestly, we are going through harsh economic times right now. Everyone is affected in one way or another and has had to make cut backs. Getting an Agile or any other Asian copy is more affordable and attainable than dishing out a grand for an LP Studio or SG. It's natural to develop negativity towards things you can't afford or have. This applies to everything. Look at the Occupy Wall Street movements. It's driven mostly by unemployed college grads in their 20s and 30s. It's all the weed smoking people who majored in English, History, Liberal Studies, and other useless majors who can't find a job. Last time I checked, Silicon Valley can't find enough computer scientists and engineers, yet kids today still do not chose those majors. They continue to pursue liberal arts degrees and then cry about not find a job. Then they go out and protest "the system" because they can't find jobs. They start to develop a dislike for those who have succeeded, but are not owning up to the fact that spending $100k at a private school for a degree in graphic design takes you no where in this day and age. Everyone is pissed at the 1% because it's not fair for them to be so rich, yet I don't see a whole lot of people going out and trying to start their own businesses. the CEO from Starbucks was once homeless, Larry Elison (Oracle), Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, all these guys dropped out of school to pursue companies. Hell, Donald Trump, whether you like him or not, has had NINE separate bankruptcies. These people took major risks to start a business. If you consider how many students are willing to drop out of college to pursue a business opportunity or how many of you are willing to go through multiple bankruptcies you might understand why only 1%-5% of America has about 80% of the cash. But in the end everyone hates the 1% because they will not share their money with the rest of us. So after a long rant of everything, what it comes back to, is we all develop negative biases towards things we can not afford, have, or be. I'm not a Gibson owner nor a fan bay, but I like their guitars and I want a Les Paul. And honestly the only people I see Gibson bashing are the guys who do NOT have Gibson in their sig... I don't see very many Gibson owners turning against their guitars. That might say something as well. Sorry for the long rant, feel free to tear it apart, feel offended or whatever. If you're a supporter of occupy wall street, I just have this to tell you. I'm going to walk into my office on Monday, enjoy my nice cushy office job, love my income, and be thankful that I majored in economics with a strong focus in mathematics. Then I'm going to laugh at all of the liberal arts kids protesting downstairs and laugh about it with my college buddies who work in finance, engineering, and aerospace.

 

 

 

 

Oh my God. This one takes the cake. It used to be that you guys blamed it on the few people who got a bad deal on their Gibson. Now, failing all else the fan boys have decided that it has now become a Socio Economic issue. Now the story is that people are upset with Gibson because they are the impoverished huddled masses who have turned to Left Wing Socialism and are green with envy of those who can afford the luxury of owning a Gibson guitar. Are you nuts? Are you listening to what you are saying? You sound like those idiots in the Bush administration. Next you will be telling us that if we don't love Gibson we are unpatriotic and that love of Gibson is essential to the national security.

 

If that is the case then how do you explain someone like me who has over $4000.00 invested in Gibsons and 14 guitars that add up to well over $20,000.00 in value, and who retired as Director of Construction for one of the top 5 National Home Builders who still thinks that the Gibson Guitar Company and Henry Js' business model are an unmitigated joke?

 

Have you no shame. Is there no limit to the despicable arguments you people will put forward. Take it from me, who had an office the likes of which you will never see and an income you will only dream of and an ability to treat his fellow man with a dignity that you obviously will never understand, to say that others don't like something because they are less well off than you and are envious simply because they are not standing in awe of your overpriced status symbol is nothing less than obnoxious.

 

One more piece of advice. From the way I hear you talking it is unlikely that you have been invited to any managerial or policy meetings. However, if you ever are it would be a good idea not to come across this arrogant and self serving. Attitudes like that do not impress.

 

Oh dear....excuse me.... I think I may have to.........................BAAAAARRRRRFFFFF!!!!!

[jhorne]

 

Yeah -- for one thing, the Gibson is "chambered" and the Elitist isn't...

 

 

Chambered and with a AAAA Flame Maple top and back with a Mahogany core. The chambering on the Supreme pre-dates the current chambering that everyone bitches about now. Back when the Supreme came out, the chambering was a high end 'feature' of this model. But if this dealer thinks a Supreme and Epi Elitist have the 'same construction', who am I to question them?

[aenemated]

 

I equate Kodak in Chapter 11 in the same breath as Gibson.

 

 

not really.

 

kodak couldn't/didn't/wouldn't/whatever keep up with changes in the photography business - from amateurs to professionals. digital camera technology has grown to the point most amateurs just use the camera in their phone instead of shelling out a couple hundred bucks for a point and shoot; and every single professional photographer i know (some VERY well known) went all digital as well.

 

failing to keep up with technology is what did kodak in.

 

have there been leaps in guitar tech? sure - but considering it seems most guitar players prefer instruments and amps modeled after those built 40-50 years ago, traditional instrument makers don't have much to worry about for now.

 

now, once all the boomers and gen X'ers are gone ... i suspect there'll be a huge change. i remember standing in line for a show at safari sam's in hollywood (RIP) a couple years ago. a kid behind me noticed the LP tattoo on my left forearm. i overheard him say to his buddy "whoa, that dude has a cool tattoo of a les paul." his friend says "pft ... those are old guy guitars."

 

i guess time will tell, eh?

[elsupermanny14]

If that is the case then how do you explain someone like me who has over $4000.00 invested in Gibsons and 14 guitars that add up to well over $20,000.00 in value, and who retired as Director of Construction for one of the top 5 National Home Builders who still thinks that the Gibson Guitar Company and Henry Js' business model are an unmitigated joke?

 

 

Director of Construction huh? So the guy that benefited from all of the Republican and Bush era tax cuts that helped lead the U.S. to over construct in generic over priced "model" homes now hates Gibson for overcharging and lowering their quality? Fair enough...

 

So did you direct the company to overbuild in unsustainable locations like Henderson, or the Inland Empire? God the construction industry, there's something to be proud of... At least Gibson guitars don't lose a 1/3 of their value.

[BoneNut]

 

100% on the money. Everyone here would be more than happy to own any of those guitars. If you can't afford something, it's easy to develop a bias against it. I'm not calling anyone out on their economic situation, but honestly, we are going through harsh economic times right now. Everyone is affected in one way or another and has had to make cut backs. Getting an Agile or any other Asian copy is more affordable and attainable than dishing out a grand for an LP Studio or SG. It's natural to develop negativity towards things you can't afford or have.

 

 

Uh...no.

I can afford them and have owned them as well but wasn't impressed. Instead I've found other options that offer better quality and work out better for me.

[nicholai]

 

^^^ Bloody hell. Is English not your first language, or is your post that bad due to excessive editing?

 

 

Really that bad? Well it was after my wife passed out after our wedding..... Ok, seriously, I was half drunk and responding to ten posts, my apologies.

[Steadfastly]

 

This should answer your question. This is where Gibson makes all of it's Chinese guitars. No mention of Gibson branded guitars. http://www.qingdaonese.com/made-in-qingdao-epiphone-guitars/

 

 

It looks like this company is owned by Gibson or run by Gibson? The one I was told was the one that makes J & D guitars which is a different plant. I'll see if I can find the info on them and post it. Thanks for the info, though, Steadfastly

[Steadfastly]

 

100% on the money. Everyone here would be more than happy to own any of those guitars. If you can't afford something, it's easy to develop a bias against it. I'm not calling anyone out on their economic situation, but honestly, we are going through harsh economic times right now. Everyone is affected in one way or another and has had to make cut backs. Getting an Agile or any other Asian copy is more affordable and attainable than dishing out a grand for an LP Studio or SG. It's natural to develop negativity towards things you can't afford or have. This applies to everything. Look at the Occupy Wall Street movements. It's driven mostly by unemployed college grads in their 20s and 30s. It's all the weed smoking people who majored in English, History, Liberal Studies, and other useless majors who can't find a job. Last time I checked, Silicon Valley can't find enough computer scientists and engineers, yet kids today still do not chose those majors. They continue to pursue liberal arts degrees and then cry about not find a job. Then they go out and protest "the system" because they can't find jobs. They start to develop a dislike for those who have succeeded, but are not owning up to the fact that spending $100k at a private school for a degree in graphic design takes you no where in this day and age. Everyone is @#!*% at the 1% because it's not fair for them to be so rich, yet I don't see a whole lot of people going out and trying to start their own businesses. the CEO from Starbucks was once homeless, Larry Elison (Oracle), Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, all these guys dropped out of school to pursue companies. @#!*% , Donald Trump, whether you like him or not, has had NINE separate bankruptcies. These people took major risks to start a business. If you consider how many students are willing to drop out of college to pursue a business opportunity or how many of you are willing to go through multiple bankruptcies you might understand why only 1%-5% of America has about 80% of the cash. But in the end everyone hates the 1% because they will not share their money with the rest of us. So after a long rant of everything, what it comes back to, is we all develop negative biases towards things we can not afford, have, or be. I'm not a Gibson owner nor a fan bay, but I like their guitars and I want a Les Paul. And honestly the only people I see Gibson bashing are the guys who do NOT have Gibson in their sig... I don't see very many Gibson owners turning against their guitars. That might say something as well. Sorry for the long rant, feel free to tear it apart, feel offended or whatever. If you're a supporter of occupy wall street, I just have this to tell you. I'm going to walk into my office on Monday, enjoy my nice cushy office job, love my income, and be thankful that I majored in economics with a strong focus in mathematics. Then I'm going to laugh at all of the liberal arts kids protesting downstairs and laugh about it with my college buddies who work in finance, engineering, and aerospace.

 

 

Actually, I can afford them and I am not interested in owning one. Just because I can afford one and a good one, doesn't mean I would go out and buy one. Why buy something for Gibson's price when you can have something every bit as good for 1/2 or less the price? I've never been interested in brands. I am only interested in getting quality for the price.

[STRANDMAN]

misposted

[STRANDMAN]

Director of Construction huh? So the guy that benefited from all of the Republican and Bush era tax cuts that helped lead the U.S. to over construct in generic over priced "model" homes now hates Gibson for overcharging and lowering their quality? Fair enough... So did you direct the company to overbuild in unsustainable locations like Henderson, or the Inland Empire? God the construction industry, there's something to be proud of... At least Gibson guitars don't lose a 1/3 of their value.

 

 

 

Since you know nothing about it I'll fill you in. A Director of Construction tells the builder how many they can build not how many they should build. The decision of how many will be built is in the hands of the CEO. For most of those years I worked for a well known family owned builder who truly delivered on the promise. Then we were bought out by a typical corporate monster who practiced and took full advantage of all of the Bush era insanity which is what eventually led me to hate that company and in the end to retire from it. And you are correct. I hate Gibson and other companies like it for the same reason I grew to hate that company. The difference between you and I is that I found that corporations philosophy of disrespect for the dignity of others repulsive and took steps to end that relationship whereas you don't seem to have those values. In fact, in your own writings you echo the same attitudes of those self entitled Bush people you are now condemning. You seem to relish in the thought that you are somehow better than others because you have it and they don't.

 

With that I'm going to sign off. I had to end our last conversation with a barf and if I continue I'll have to go to the kitchen and put something in my stomach in order to avoid dry heaves.

[larry50]

 

Are you absolutely sure of this? I'm not saying you are not. It's just that others have said otherwise. Of course, Gibson would not likely admit it because they want to keep their mystique. I am interested to have any other details you could share with us. Thank you, Steadfastly

 

 

It is very well known that Gibson owns and operates a plant in Qingdao China where they manufacture all of their collateral brands. There is no evidence whatsoever that they are passing off any of those instruments as Gibson "Made in USA". When they manufacture in China, it is so noted on the instrument. So, what conspiracy are you talking about?

[Flintc]

 

Chambered and with a AAAA Flame Maple top and back with a Mahogany core. The chambering on the Supreme pre-dates the current chambering that everyone bitches about now. Back when the Supreme came out, the chambering was a high end 'feature' of this model. But if this dealer thinks a Supreme and Epi Elitist have the 'same construction', who am I to question them?

Well, I admit I didn't take a table saw and slice them apart to compare. I hefted them both and could not tell any weight difference, so if you asked me to pick the lighter guitar, I'd have flipped a coin. Just looking at them doesn't show any real difference. Both were flame maple carved tops.

 

But to be fair, there are different ways to interpret a question like "what's the difference", and it's probably the case that the dealer interpreted this as asking for a functional, musical difference rather than a manufacturing construction difference. They looked alike, felt alike, sounded alike, played alike. From a tech's viewpoint, they set up and repair alike both externally and internally. I suppose as a musician rather than a manufacturer, I'd personally be more concerned with sound and feel -- and maybe with the logo's status factor...

[Steadfastly]

Strandman: Here is the info I was looking for on the Gibson guitars made in the far east. It does say that it is the lower end guitars so perhaps that is just the Epiphones and other brands besides the Gibson.

 

"Jack & Danny Brothers is one of the largest and best known guitar manufacturers in the far east. World famous companies like Gibson, Ibanez and Yamaha have some of their low priced models made at the Jack & Danny factories."

 

http://www.musicstore.com/en_EN/EUR/Home/Jack-und-Danny/cat-Home-Logo_Jack_Danny

[Guitar_Dan]

 

Actually, I can afford them and I am not interested in owning one. Just because I can afford one and a good one, doesn't mean I would go out and buy one. Why buy something for Gibson's price when you can have something every bit as good for 1/2 or less the price?

 

 

I paid $3800 for my R9 VOS, show me something as good and that has as much character as that for $1900 or less brand new? I don't agree with what Gibson are currently doing, but they have produced some outstanding guitars.

[Deadbeat Son]

 

It looks like this company is owned by Gibson or run by Gibson? The one I was told was the one that makes J & D guitars which is a different plant. I'll see if I can find the info on them and post it. Thanks for the info, though, Steadfastly

 

 

Here's the info on J&D:

 

 

Jack & Danny Brothers is one of the largest and best known guitar manufacturers in the far east. World famous companies like Gibson, Ibanez and Yamaha have some of their low priced models made at the Jack & Danny factories. Jack&Danny operates a super modern factory equipped with the most high end CNC milling cutters and lacquer chambers for the production of e-guitars, e-basses, acoustic guitars and acoustic basses.

 

 

That blurb says nothing about actual Gibsons being produced there. With Epiphone being built in the Qing Dao factory, it's likely the only thing being produced in this factory are Maestro or Baldwin guitars. I believe Gibson's Kramer branded instruments are still built in Korea.

 

On his own forum, HJ said:

 

 

We have made a choice, that being that Gibson brand product will be produced in America as it has been since the founding of the company in 1984. I continue to be committed to that important part of our heritage, and to the brilliant craftspeople that work in our shops.