Do Muslims work?

[Zamfir]

I'm pretty sure I have four Muslim female friends, one Jordanian, one Turkish, one Iranian Azeri, one Bosnian who are all unswervingly in favor of womens' rights, and are also fiercely proud of being Muslims from their respective countries.

As well they should be.

Given that Muslim societies are facing their own social pressures internally to emancipate women (and some are farther than others...), why do you take the line of conservative male imams as the definitive position of Islamic cultures?

[Fran da Man]

hhhmmm...yep...they be peaceful...
http://www.comcast.net/news/index.jsp?cat=GENERAL&fn=/2006/09/17/478453.html&cvqh=itn_nunshot

Italian Nun Shot Dead by Somali Gunmen
MOHAMED SHEIKH NOR, Associated Press Writer
2 hours ago

MOGADISHU, Somalia - Two gunmen killed an Italian nun and her bodyguard at a hospital Sunday, and a security official for an Islamic militia controlling the capital speculated the attack was linked to worldwide Muslim anger over a speech by Pope Benedict XVI.

The nun, whose identify was not released, was shot in the back four times at the entrance to the Austrian-run S.O.S. Hospital in northern Mogadishu, said Dr. Mohamed Yusuf, a physician at the facility, which serves mothers and children.

There was no immediate claim of responsibility for the attack, which came hours after a leading Somali cleric condemned remarks by the pope that quoted a Byzantine emperor who characterized some of the teachings of Islam's founder as "evil and inhuman."

The head of security for the Islamic militia, Yusuf Mohamed Siad, said one man had been arrested and a second was being hunted. He said the killing might have stemmed from the uproar over the pope but stressed he didn't know for sure.

"They could be people annoyed by the pope's speech, which angered all Muslims in the world, or they could have been having something to do with S.O.S," he said. "We will have to clarify this through our investigation."

A Vatican spokesman called the nun's slaying "a horrible episode," the Italian news agency ANSA said.

"Let's hope that it will be an isolated fact," the Rev. Federico Lombardi said. He expressed hope Muslim anger would ease following Benedict's explanation Sunday that the quotation he cited did not reflect his personal opinion about Islam.

The nun, who spoke fluent Somali, was believed to be around 60 and had been working at the hospital since 2002, people at the hospital said, insisting on anonymity for fear of reprisals. She taught at the hospital and also looked after children, said one doctor.

Her body was being flown to Nairobi, Kenya, before being returned to Italy, he added.

Like many foreigners, she traveled with a bodyguard in Somalia, which sank into anarchy after warlords overthrew the country's longtime dictator in 1991.

But attacks on foreigners have continued.

In June an award-winning Swedish journalist, Martin Adler, was fatally shot while covering a demonstration in Mogadishu. Veteran Italian aid worker Annalena Tonelli was shot dead in 2003 in the breakaway republic of Somaliland in the north.

Islamic fundamentalists have stepped into the political and security vacuum, seizing control of Mogadishu and much of Somalia's south, imposing strict religious rule.

A U.N.-backed acting government was established two years ago, but it has failed to assert any power outside its base in Baidoa, 150 miles from Mogadishu.

The Islamic militia's courts are credited with bringing a semblance of order, but the West fears the emergence of a Taliban-style regime.

On Sunday, a Somali cleric strongly criticized Benedict's speech.

"The pope's statement at this time was not only wrong but irresponsible as well," said Sheik Nor Barud, deputy leader of the Somali Muslim Scholars Association.

"Both the Pope and the Byzantine emperor he quoted are ignorant of Islam and its noble prophet," he told journalists at a news conference.

[Jazz Ad]

Just for a change, try searching for people killing in the name of Jesus ?
Why do you want to make it a religious issue ?

[Fran da Man]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad Just for a change, try searching for people killing in the name of Jesus ? Why do you want to make it a religious issue ?

Google lists a couple 100 thousand pages.
Oh, that Nun just happened to step in the path of that guys bullets (4 times) i get it now.

[syciprider]

What I want to see are the world's Islam leaders to condemn/distance themselves from the violence of their extremist minorities.

When this happens, I will truly believe that Moslems just want to co exist.

[dubwolf]

There're about 1.3 billion muslims worldwide. I think if they all wanted America dead, the country would be a smoking crater right now.

[syciprider]

M.A.D.

[Jazz Ad]

Well here we reach a major issue.
Islam isn't an organized religion. The Kuran encourages people to think and interpret it by themselves.
It's not like they had a pope who could speak for all muslims.
You can claim yourself an imam tomorrow and start recruiting guys for your terrorist group.

This said, I've heard many imams protest against terrorism.
In France, Dalil Boubakeur (imam for the mosque of paris and president of the council for french musulmans) does it very often. I heard today that he appreciated the Pope's later explanations and considered the case closed.

[syciprider]

Islam isn't an organized religion?

Then why do they have dogma, rituals and leaders? These are parts of an organization.

It doesn't matter if there is no one world leader. Heads of state or high level clerics are well placed enough to be able to use their position to very publicly urge the rest of the Moslem world to distance themselves from and cut support for the fanatics. Your Imam in France doesn't constitute an appreciable effort IMO.

[niomosy]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad Well here we reach a major issue. Islam isn't an organized religion. The Kuran encourages people to think and interpret it by themselves. It's not like they had a pope who could speak for all muslims. You can claim yourself an imam tomorrow and start recruiting guys for your terrorist group. This said, I've heard many imams protest against terrorism. In France, Dalil Boubakeur (imam for the mosque of paris and president of the council for french musulmans) does it very often. I heard today that he appreciated the Pope's later explanations and considered the case closed.

 

 

Huh? That doesn't sound right. One of the problems between the Shiites and Sunni's is question of who's the leader of Islam. The Shiites claim that only a blood descendent of Mohammad can be the leader. The Sunni's don't. This coming to me as info from Muslims I used to work with. I doubt things have changed in the 3 years or so since we discussed this unless they were just way off int he first place.

[hawkhuff]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad Well here we reach a major issue. Islam isn't an organized religion. The Kuran encourages people to think and interpret it by themselves.

No religions are organized, per se. There are many sects of Judaiism and of Christianity. All have a violoent past there is no arguing that point. But that isn't the point now. You can cast aspersions on Chrisitanity all you like and hate all you like but they are not the issue.

 

The moslems have never come out of the 12th century. And here is the major problem now. They are thinking big in terms of killing the infidels, they want to disrupt economies, they want to destroy infrastructure and not just of this country but ANY country that does not submit and convert. This would include Europe.

 

Still worse, they are trying everything to get their hands on nukes and bio-weapons.

 

How many here think these 'peaceful' people won't use them? How many of the 'peaceful' facilitators will stop them?

 

HMMMM??

[Jazz Ad]

Stop waving your flag about possible european attacks would you ?
We've had our share of terrorism, for 50 years. It's hardly news for us.

[Rob Martinez]

As a Catholic, I am offended at Muslim responses to the pope's comments. But I don't burn anyone in effigy or call for the death of anyone.

It is a miracle!! All of a sudden, Islam DOES have a collective voice! It was silent for 9/11, it was silent when that hitlerian dictator of Iran called for wiping Israel off the face of the earth, and it is silent when Muslims call for the death of the USA.

An APOLOGY?? When will the Muslims apologize for stealing, by fire and sword, half of Christendom from the west? How about an apology for starting all those wars with Israel?

The pope's comments reveal much about Islam, and that is that it is an intolerant, fascistic civilization that has no room for free speech, or even free thought.

Islam has contributed nothing to the world in the last five centuries, except for terrorism and suicide bombers.

We Catholics have made many mistakes in the past, and a pope (John Paul II) apologized for them. We have eveolved. Where is the progression and evolution of the Muslims?

Faith AND reason are necessary for a religion to be true and effective. Islam has faith, but has lost its reason. I hope someday soon they will find it again.

[Jazz Ad]

[niomosy]

Originally posted by Rob Martinez An APOLOGY?? When will the Muslims apologize for stealing, by fire and sword, half of Christendom from the west?

As soon as Christians apologize for stealing it from the religions that came before them.

While we're at it, how about we have the U.S. apologize for taking all that land from the "Native" Americans and Mexicans? We'll just go through the whole list of people that took land from others and have everyone apologize for taking it. We'll make it the Apologize Fest 2006. Actually, probably 2007 at the earliest given the need for accurate research, etc. Come to think of it, I think even 2008's pushing it if the historians start getting into debates. Oh well, we'll get to it eventually, I'm sure

[chugheshc]

I don't know if anyone has read this:

Sam Harris - The End of Faith (first ten pages)
I'm getting ready to buy the book, but in this interview,
Interview with Sam Harris he
gives an interesting thought: (forgive my inaccurate quotation)


If we bought a Christian back from the 14th century, just popped him into our current world, he would be completely up to date on religion - his view of religion would be unimpeachable.
However, his knowledge of every single other subject would be laughable by todays knowledge; a 7 year old would know far more about the world.

Sam Harris thinks spirituality should move away from religion, can't say i disagree.

To speak more to the subject of this thread, extremists are the problem, be they muslim, christian, pro-life, anti-government, etc. Anytime people believe that someone with different thoughts/skin color/gods should die or be harmed simply for disagreeing..... well, we all know what can happen.
Auschwitz, Rwanda, Oklahoma City, Atlanta, Trade Center,
Kurdistan.
imho, this thread should be deleted.
C>

[Rob Martinez]

OK, niomosy, we Catholics hereby apologize to the Romans, Aztecs, Incas, and Druids for taking your lands!! Oh and to the Persians and Bedoin tribes. There, ya happy now???

[bassman1956]

Originally posted by niomosy As soon as Christians apologize for stealing it from the religions that came before them. While we're at it, how about we have the U.S. apologize for taking all that land from the "Native" Americans and Mexicans? We'll just go through the whole list of people that took land from others and have everyone apologize for taking it. We'll make it the Apologize Fest 2006. Actually, probably 2007 at the earliest given the need for accurate research, etc. Come to think of it, I think even 2008's pushing it if the historians start getting into debates. Oh well, we'll get to it eventually, I'm sure

What about all the South and Latin American lands conquered by the Spanish Conquestadors?

[bassman1956]

Originally posted by niomosy As soon as Christians apologize for stealing it from the religions that came before them. While we're at it, how about we have the U.S. apologize for taking all that land from the "Native" Americans and Mexicans? We'll just go through the whole list of people that took land from others and have everyone apologize for taking it. We'll make it the Apologize Fest 2006. Actually, probably 2007 at the earliest given the need for accurate research, etc. Come to think of it, I think even 2008's pushing it if the historians start getting into debates. Oh well, we'll get to it eventually, I'm sure

What about all the South and Latin American lands conquered by the Spanish Conquestadors? Just because they were some of the first to do it in the New World doesn't mean they're without blame or guilt.

[Rob Martinez]

Ia m from New Mexico, my family has been here since 1598, I descend from both Spanish colonists and Native Americans. Of course there are historical issues stemming from Spanish Catholic aggression in this region, followed my American Protestant conquest in the mid 1800s. There is plenty of guilt to go around.

That is not what this thread is about. My family lost land and cultural identity when the US invaded the southwest and stole it from Mexico. That doesn't even touch on the injustices imposed on Native Americans by Spanish and American/US peoples.

But Native Americans and Hispanics in the southwest are not suicide bombing or terrorizing anyone.

So let's stop with the ignorant comparisons. And don't talk to me about being conquered and displaced. It happened to my people and we try an co-exist and even benefit from history.

The issue at hand is a fascist, intolerant strain of Islam that is plaguing the world right now. The pope may apologize to appease some extremist idiots in the Middle East, but let's get one thing straight: these assholes will need to be dealt with, sooner or later. Just like the Nazis.

[lug]

Originally posted by Rob Martinez Ia m from New Mexico, my family has been here since 1598, I descend from both Spanish colonists and Native Americans. Of course there are historical issues stemming from Spanish Catholic aggression in this region, followed my American Protestant conquest in the mid 1800s. There is plenty of guilt to go around. That is not what this thread is about. My family lost land and cultural identity when the US invaded the southwest and stole it from Mexico. That doesn't even touch on the injustices imposed on Native Americans by Spanish and American/US peoples.

 

 

Well, to be accurate, Mexico invaded Texas in 1846 causing a declaration of war by the US.

[Rob Martinez]

Well, lug, that is the US perspective, but not necessarily the truth. The boundary was in dispute, the US entered space that was Mexican, and that was that, a war was started.

Even US historians acknowledge the US provoked that war, using "manifest destiny" as an excuse to justify their actions. Historians agree on both sides the US antagonized Mexico by annexing Texas.

Let's try to be intellectually honest. You certainly don't have to believe me, just check it out.

[lug]

Originally posted by Rob Martinez Well, lug, that is the US perspective, but not necessarily the truth. The boundary was in dispute, the US entered space that was Mexican, and that was that, a war was started. Even US historians acknowledge the US provoked that war, using "manifest destiny" as an excuse to justify their actions. Historians agree on both sides the US antagonized Mexico by annexing Texas. Let's try to be intellectually honest. You certainly don't have to believe me, just check it out.

 

 

Sorry, I have to disagree. Texas was an independant country for a full decade before this incident, being recognized by other countries, etcc.. Mexico claimed Santa Anna's recognistion of Texas as independant was made under duress. well, ALL wars end with one side "under duress", that's just the way things go. Santa Anna lost, end of story. By invading, they gave the US an excuse for the manifest destiny stuff that happened later.

[Crescent Seven]

Originally posted by Rob Martinez Well, lug, that is the US perspective, but not necessarily the truth. The boundary was in dispute, the US entered space that was Mexican, and that was that, a war was started. Even US historians acknowledge the US provoked that war, using "manifest destiny" as an excuse to justify their actions. Historians agree on both sides the US antagonized Mexico by annexing Texas. Let's try to be intellectually honest. You certainly don't have to believe me, just check it out.

 

 

I've never felt the need to apologize to anybody about what my father's great-great-great grandfather's generation did, and I've never validated any argument against me because of those actions. I've never oppressed anybody, and I've never enslaved anybody. You could be 100% correct about it, but the bearing it has on the realities of today is moot.

C7

[Rob Martinez]

Thank you, Crescent Seven, for making my point for me!

The issue at hand is how Muslims act in the world TODAY. Whatever my, or the pope's opinion, the fact is, they need to learn to live in the world with the rest of us.

I don't think the pope owes anyone an apology. Just like Crescent Seven doesn't.