Do Muslims work?

[KeysBear]

 

Originally posted by RockStarBassist And based on your initial reply- when was the last time you had the Mexican gov't. dumping the dregs of their society on your country because they refuse to do anything about it, while your own gov't. refuses to make a move either? Just curious...

 

I have observed that most other countries around the globe have very strict policies for even obtaining a visitors visa. You are not going to simply walk across their border with nothing and find a job. You are going to prove that you have enough money to support yourself for the entire length of your stay. If you desire to stay longer you are going to be required to invest the equivilent of $100,000 to $200,000 in U.S. dollars into a business or prove an income of $2,000 to $3,0000 a month in the form of a pension. You are not going to go into their country as a senior citizen to use their health insurance program, or to have a baby, or to have an operation. The United States is the biggest sucker nation of all time. Come one, come all, we'll take out your gall bladder and give you free prenatal care. We'll cut programs for our own children so we can give yours an education in your own language. And while you're here please protest our government and demand that we give the Southwestern U.S. back to Mexico. After all you've earned it.

[walkerci]

Originally posted by Jazz Ad What the Pope said is true and doesn't contain an ounce of hate. It's also true that it wasn't very wise to start this debate right now.

 

Thank you for cutting to the chase.

 

If what the Pope said was true and he didn't say it with hateful intentions, then his critics must be afraid of the truth.

 

He probably thought long and hard about his speech and the possible reaction before he made it. Undoubtably he sought guidance also. I believe he meant every word he said and was fully aware of what kind of reaction to expect.

[RSBro]

 

Originally posted by KeysBear I have observed that most other countries around the globe have very strict policies for even obtaining a visitors visa. You are not going to simply walk across their border with nothing and find a job. You are going to prove that you have enough money to support yourself for the entire length of your stay. If you desire to stay longer you are going to be required to invest the equivilent of $100,000 to $200,000 in U.S. dollars into a business or prove an income of $2,000 to $3,0000 a month in the form of a pension. You are not going to go into their country as a senior citizen to use their health insurance program, or to have a baby, or to have an operation. The United States is the biggest sucker nation of all time. Come one, come all, we'll take out your gall bladder and give you free prenatal care. We'll cut programs for our own children so we can give yours an education in your own language. And while you're here please protest our government and demand that we give the Southwestern U.S. back to Mexico. After all you've earned it.

 

 

Couldn't of said it better myself.

[bassman1956]

I loved Bermuda so much I jokingly enquired about what it would take to find a job there.

 

I was quickly and non-jokingly informed there are fewer methods faster at getting one's self forcibly removed from the islands.

 

And by more than one person.

 

 

 

 

 

We are being intentionally invaded in an intentionally militant fashion by people who are not from here and are intentionally violating our rules to be here but who will gladly use our rules to force for themselves a place in our nation, whether they are invited or not, whether they obtain it legally or not.

 

The fact that there are no guns is secondary.

 

Make no mistake, people, this is a militant invasion, aimed at taking over the country.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Originally posted by bbl Again, what a short-sided statement you've made. If we saw Muslims doing something besides protest and violence? I see Muslims all the time, working, going about their day. Doesn't make the news, though. Do you not see Muslims where you live? Or do you not notice them? Your statement seems to validate the "generalization" that people here are making about Muslims. I think that's terribly sad. And I don't think you're that narrow-minded.

 

 

You misunderstand. I am referring to the fact that the *only* thing we see on tv coming from the middle east is violence. We don't see anyone over there saying anything good about the US. Do such people exist? Perhaps, but we sure wouldn't know about it.

 

So if there are Muslims over there working, who don't have the time to spend tossing rocks and burning effigies, nobody is doing much to let Mr. Avg American know about it. Is it because our opinion of this doesn't matter?

 

Of course, what fails to be mentioned in this thread is that nobody, even the OP, really thinks that *NO* Muslim works. It's a figure of speech.

[bassman1956]

 

Originally posted by Craigv ... I am referring to the fact that the *only* thing we see on tv coming from the middle east is violence. ...

 

 

 

 

 

I receive all kinds of emails about what our people are doing there, and weapons found, and good that is accomplished, none of which is shown in our media. And I've heard vets FROM THERE, active and reserve alike, officer and enlisted alike, offer info substantially counter to anything we see on the news.

 

Our media continue to be influenced and controlled by '60's type radical negativism that is based on nothing good to say about anything. Which means there is no way anything our current gov't is involved with over there could be beneficial, positive, or remotely even middle-of-the -road. If they can't slam it, it can't be news. Which is even more fundamentally lopsided than the heirarchy the radical veiwpoints of that bygone era tried to overturn.

[Crescent Seven]

 

Originally posted by bassman1956 I receive all kinds of emails about what our people are doing there, and weapons found, and good that is accomplished, none of which is shown in our media. And I've heard vets FROM THERE, active and reserve alike, officer and enlisted alike, offer info substantially counter to anything we see on the news.

 

 

This has been my experience as well. I asked a buddy who was back on leave a couple years ago what the {censored} was going wrong in Iraq, and he said that the older the man, the harder he worked. He said that every morning at 10am, there would be groups of 20-somethings standing on the street corners complaining, and this was at the beginning of the reconstruction, when contractors were searching daily for people to PAY to work for them on infrastructure projects. These guys would turn down jobs, and say "If Allah wills it, I will work." Meanwhile, guys in their 60's were pouring concrete and framing buildings.

Incidentally, it's the same demographic you always see burning effigies and throwing molitov cocktails, and the same demographic fighting in the insurgency. Something or someone has convinced the Muslim youth in the Arab world that the only path to glory is Jihad, and they are following it. It's not their fathers and uncles teaching them this {censored}, it's the clerics and mullahs and warlords driving this into their heads. If these Muslim clerics would preach to these guys "hey, make your country great, take advantage of this opportunity, live alongside Israel, quit killing each other.", maybe the world wouldn't be dealing with this {censored}.

I know Muslims work, that's an obvious statement. It's just that there is a whole generation, maybe two, that's been poisoned by a nasty form of Islam into believing that murder, mayhem, terror and world domination is the only way to live, that the western world is the enemy, and that we deserve to die for not thinking the way they do.

THOSE are the Muslims I don't like. Not the cab driver in NYC, or the liquor store owner in Lakewood, CO, or the 70 year old woman with a purple index finger. I really am afraid now that the hateful young Muslims in the Arab world are becoming the majority.

C7

[philthygeezer]

[Rippin' Robin]

Meh. What the pope said weren't even his own words, as he was quoting some dude from Byzantian (sp?) times. This being said, by now we know (through the Denmark affair and what not) that the real 'thin-skinned' people are the hatemongering leaders in muslim countries, the insidious ones who go around and rally everyone to go out on the streets and burn flags.

 

I've quoted this in the thread about the Denmark affair, a Dutch correspondent in the Middle East in the middle of a peaceful protest. All went well, until a few 'leader' type figures came to the scene and starting hurling abuse and hate in an orchestrated manner. Things like the pope quoted... It's just propaganda food for inflammatory beardos (OMFG I'm such a bigoted racist nazi scumbug!!!1!!!) like that.

 

As always, lack of information leads to misunderstanding, and misunderstanding leads to hate.

 

Now it's time to get my pinko jihad-hugging liberal hippie ass some coffee.

[niomosy]

Originally posted by burdizzos Yep, we work like crazy for a while. Once the old resume is padded and the income is climbing we realize that we enjoy diminishing returns on effort thanks to the tax man. Then we become lazy Americans who do a solid 30 hours of work per week and make enough money to live very comfortably. It's an awful cycle and I blame George Bush.

 

30 hours? Optimist

[niomosy]

 

Originally posted by Craigv You misunderstand. I am referring to the fact that the *only* thing we see on tv coming from the middle east is violence. We don't see anyone over there saying anything good about the US. Do such people exist? Perhaps, but we sure wouldn't know about it. So if there are Muslims over there working, who don't have the time to spend tossing rocks and burning effigies, nobody is doing much to let Mr. Avg American know about it. Is it because our opinion of this doesn't matter? Of course, what fails to be mentioned in this thread is that nobody, even the OP, really thinks that *NO* Muslim works. It's a figure of speech.

 

 

That's an easy cop-out, though. The only news we really care about is bad news with maybe a few bits of good news (Team X won the championship, etc). That there are Muslims that go to work and pay their taxes isn't news so no one's going to report on it. Bad news sells and they're selling it well.

[Benjamin]

 

Originally posted by Jazz Ad What the Pope said is true and doesn't contain an ounce of hate. It's also true that it wasn't very wise to start this debate right now.

 

 

I was waiting for someone to say this.

 

I guess those who have been offended by Benedict's remarks still believe that what Mohammed brought to the table is still valid. Last I looked the world had changed considerably.

[niomosy]

Originally posted by Benjamin But that is my opinion. Call me anti-Christian if you like, call me anti-Islamic, anti-Luddite, whatever. It doesn't change how I see an individual if they are nice to me and don't try to sell me a few hundred pages of their God

 

Don't worry. I'm sure plenty enough Christians will give you a pass on the anti-Christian thing so long as you don't like the Muslims

[Benjamin]

Originally posted by niomosy Don't worry. I'm sure plenty enough Christians will give you a pass on the anti-Christian thing so long as you don't like the Muslims

 

When did this become a popularty contest? Sounds to me like a competition to claim your friends at school before you get left with the smelly kid who picks his nose all the time

[the_grouse_mouse]

there's no welfare system in India, so they have to work.

 

But they do seem to have their own take on time!

 

I've been to India and have met plenty of nice Muslims, but also some arseholes. They're just like us - people are people, though they are shaped by their environment.

 

As with us, the media shapes a lot of what the public believes. Call me a dreamer, but I'd give my left nut to have objective media worldwide!

 

"squeak"

[hawkhuff]

 

Originally posted by Jazz Ad You really can't separate a person and his function can you ? Or express an opinion without resorting to insults ? I happen to be a mod. You respect the rules and the players, we're fine. You don't, we bust your ass. I also am a human being with opinions and the right to express them. Pour as much as you want over my head, I don't care. At all. You can't harm me this way. You can't think properly when you're blinded by hate. Just like the guys up there in the pic, and just like you. Every time you look at events through the filter of prejudices and personal agendas, you fail understanding {censored} to what happens. Just like the guys up there in the pic, and just like you. What the Pope said is true and doesn't contain an ounce of hate. It's also true that it wasn't very wise to start this debate right now.

Yes, I can separate the people from the actions but in this case there really is no separation.

 

You started the insults Jazz. Not me. But I am sure you don't see it with those blinders you're wearing.

 

Yes, yes, we must not outrage the moslems must we? We must be nice, right? It will make them hate us less. RRRRRiiiggghhhttt.

 

These people are either terrorists or they are facilitators of terrorists. They want us dead, all of us and that includes you unless you convert. That is the teaching of the day with them.

 

Of course I hate those who kill thousands of Americans and intend to kill millions more. Yes, I hate those who continue to kill our soldiers. Yes I hate those who want to wipe an entire nation off the face of this Earth because they believe them to be the worlds' plague. The same who people who danced in the streets all over the muslim world when the WTC fell. The same people who will cheer when another calmity befalls us. I am not apologetic in the least for these sentiments.

 

Just listen to their words. Watch their actions. Look at what they teach their children. The same people who teach their children that you are a F'ing hero if you're a martyr. These are the people who represent islam which as a peaceful religion? C'mon it is you who knows nothing about this group.

 

Have they stopped burning your country yet? My understanding of that issue is the real French population will not allow them to assimilate and that they do not wish to assimilate into French society. Are you eventually going to allow them to take over your country? I ask this as a legitimate question not as any insult.

 

Hey who wants to wager that some moslem will attempt to assassinate the Pope? Happened to the last Pope, recall and they said he was a deranged man. Yeah, right.

 

F, they are all deranged from our cultural point of view. And they want to kill us while the others stand and cheer.

[Rippin' Robin]

 

Originally posted by hawkhuff ((snip rant))

 

 

Not all of 'em are bad, you know.

 

How many muslims do you know personally?

[jetmech727]

In all seriousness, why the hell does the rest of the world constantly have to apologize to these people? A little over sensitive ya think....?

 

F*#K off already!!!

[Zamfir]

Originally posted by Craigv It's sarcasm. Ironic that so many times I've had people ask why Americans can't appreciate sarcasm, but so many times it's minsinterpreted here. The question is, "why are there so many muslims protesting the US, or the Pope, or some newspaper op-ed, or cartoon? Why do they do so with violence almost every time, while the religion is supposedly peaceful? Where are all the peaceful Muslims, and why aren't they doing anything about the violent ones?" It's frustration with a group of people who see hell-bent on {censored}ing up the world for no good purpose. [different post:] And perhaps if we saw Muslims doing something besides protest and violence, folks wouldn't ask what else they do.

 

 

Pop quiz: Which is more likely to get on the cameras and distributed to media agencies?

 

A. Peaceful Muslims working their jobs, going to mosque, and taking care of their families.

 

B. A particular Muslim group venting for an hour with nice burning visuals, before going back to their jobs, their mosques, and their families.

 

As for the violence by a group of people in the leadoff photo of this thread being generalized to the entire culture, JazzAd was exactly right. You cannot generalize off anecdotal pictures, which is what the lead photo was.

 

If that's all you see, go beyond the news media, and try traveling there. If that's too much to ask, make a Muslim friend in this country and do social things with her/him and her/his circle of contacts.

 

Originally posted by Crescent Seven As hateful as people think Americans are, we just don't have that kind of thing going on in our streets, especially not in the form of spontaneous violence and outrage over something like the Pope saying something we disagree with.

 

Think again:

 

 

 

 

 

Now - why aren't all those majority peaceful Americans who go to church without violence "doing something about it?"

 

That includes every person in this thread asking the same question about Muslims burning things.

 

If you have your excuse to avoid counterprotesting the Klan or Mexican flag-burners, maybe ordinary Muslims have equally good reasons for not showing up at the nearest anti-American outburst...

 

 

Far as I'm concerned, a lot of people in this thread need to dial back their 9/11 fear/paranoia. The vast majority of Muslims are not out to get you, and the tiny few who are, are not a valid justification for you to indulge bigotry against all of them.

 

Because if you choose to accept the bigoted assumption that all Muslims are culturally disposed towards violence, especially against Americans, you certainly do not believe that all men and women are created equal. And all your expressions of culturally-centered hatred amount to PR ammunition for the fanatics trying to argue that America is waging a war on Muslims.

 

If you want to be morally superior to paranoid religious extremists, start choosing and acting like it.

[theoriz]

 

Originally posted by Zamfir ...

 

 

That was one of the best reasoned replies I've ever seen on this forum. I totally agree.

 

Human beings are human beings. As many others said, you don't have to be a white protestand, Jewish or Muslim to be a good person. Either you are or you are not. Race and religion has nothing to do with it.

[Crescent Seven]

Zamfir, I considered the KKK when I made my post, but I don't think that they are parallel with what happens in the Arab world with regard to protests. Today's KKK puts together rallies and espouses their {censored}ed up views. As far as I know, when somebdy speaks out against them, or even alludes to them, they don't go looking for minorities to behead, they don't drive car bombs into markets, and they don't firebomb embassies. I'm not defending them, but there is a difference, and the violence perpetrated by the hate groups in America is roundly denounced and PUNISHED. Further, the American people decided 40 years ago that while they would tolerate protected speech, they wouldn't tolerate hate based violence and discrimination, and Americans DID SOMETHING ABOUT IT. I don't ever see cops arresting these guys in the Middle East like I would see here in the USA if somebody burned a cross in the middle of a street or put together a large crowd calling for the killing of a figurehead for saying something they disagree with. I also never hear about peace marches and candlelight vigils calling for peace in the Middle East, either. If it's happening, and I'm not being told about it by our media, then they are perpetuating the problem, not me, because as much as I don't like people in the Middle East, I'm not going around kidnapping Arabs and cutting off their heads.

C7

[bholder]

Originally posted by the_grouse_mouse there's no welfare system in India, so they have to work. But they do seem to have their own take on time! I've been to India and have met plenty of nice Muslims, but also some arseholes. They're just like us - people are people, though they are shaped by their environment. As with us, the media shapes a lot of what the public believes. Call me a dreamer, but I'd give my left nut to have objective media worldwide! "squeak"

 

Wow, I feel the same way - I'd give your left nut for objective worldwide media too!

[RoboChrist]

 

Originally posted by Crescent Seven This has been my experience as well. I asked a buddy who was back on leave a couple years ago what the {censored} was going wrong in Iraq, and he said that the older the man, the harder he worked. He said that every morning at 10am, there would be groups of 20-somethings standing on the street corners complaining, and this was at the beginning of the reconstruction, when contractors were searching daily for people to PAY to work for them on infrastructure projects. These guys would turn down jobs, and say "If Allah wills it, I will work." Meanwhile, guys in their 60's were pouring concrete and framing buildings. Incidentally, it's the same demographic you always see burning effigies and throwing molitov cocktails, and the same demographic fighting in the insurgency. Something or someone has convinced the Muslim youth in the Arab world that the only path to glory is Jihad, and they are following it. It's not their fathers and uncles teaching them this {censored}, it's the clerics and mullahs and warlords driving this into their heads. If these Muslim clerics would preach to these guys "hey, make your country great, take advantage of this opportunity, live alongside Israel, quit killing each other.", maybe the world wouldn't be dealing with this {censored}. I know Muslims work, that's an obvious statement. It's just that there is a whole generation, maybe two, that's been poisoned by a nasty form of Islam into believing that murder, mayhem, terror and world domination is the only way to live, that the western world is the enemy, and that we deserve to die for not thinking the way they do. THOSE are the Muslims I don't like. Not the cab driver in NYC, or the liquor store owner in Lakewood, CO, or the 70 year old woman with a purple index finger. I really am afraid now that the hateful young Muslims in the Arab world are becoming the majority. C7

 

 

Very interesting point and I couldn't agree more with that....it's the kids ...those punks.

[Zamfir]

 

Originally posted by Crescent Seven Zamfir, I considered the KKK when I made my post, but I don't think that they are parallel with what happens in the Arab world with regard to protests. Today's KKK puts together rallies and espouses their {censored}ed up views. As far as I know, when somebdy speaks out against them, or even alludes to them, they don't go looking for minorities to behead, they don't drive car bombs into markets, and they don't firebomb embassies. I'm not defending them, but there is a difference, and the violence perpetrated by the hate groups in America is roundly denounced and PUNISHED. Further, the American people decided 40 years ago that while they would tolerate protected speech, they wouldn't tolerate hate based violence and discrimination, and Americans DID SOMETHING ABOUT IT. I don't ever see cops arresting these guys in the Middle East like I would see here in the USA if somebody burned a cross in the middle of a street or put together a large crowd calling for the killing of a figurehead for saying something they disagree with. I also never hear about peace marches and candlelight vigils calling for peace in the Middle East, either. If it's happening, and I'm not being told about it by our media, then they are perpetuating the problem, not me, because as much as I don't like people in the Middle East, I'm not going around kidnapping Arabs and cutting off their heads. C7

 

 

 

Well, I still hear about white supremacists dragging a black man behind a pickup truck, crosses being burned into lawns, minority law-abiding individuals being thrashed simply because of their race, vigilantes with hunting sights on their guns at the border, and other forms of intimidation (phone calls, broken windows and other vandalism...) being used against ethnic and racial groups in the United States. Not to mention more than a few abortion clinic bombings and Oklahoma City...

 

Hell, last month, two assholes in a passing Ford yelled "faggot" at me out the window before speeding off. (I'm married, as you know.) You wanna tell me these guys and hundreds, probably thousands like them wouldn't have helped tie Matthew Shepard to a fence if they'd been asked?

 

So no, I disagree completely that fellow Americans don't use terror and violence to frighten and kill non-violent people for twisted political and social ends. The only difference is that American chicken{censored}s get out of the car-bomb ahead of time. And I disagree that most of the racially-based crimes get punished. The reason why you don't see beheadings in this country is because law enforcement has enough resources and works just well enough to track some -- far from all -- homicides down, not because American racists are a lesser order of devil. They're just more cowardly.

 

Our rate of social violence against vulnerable groups may have slackened off since 1800-1968, but it has hardly disappeared, and may arguably be rising. Militant racist groups wouldn't hang onto their arsenals without a strong expectation of future violence...

 

Couple years ago, a moderate Republican friend of mine said, "Take away our standard of living and we'll see just how 'civilized' we are in this country." I'm inclined to agree.

 

P.S. You get beheadings of Americans and Europeans in Iraq and Afghanistan where there is virtually zero law and order because there is no state worth the name. Much the same in parts of Pakistan or Algeria where the government cannot exercise control. The only people getting beheaded in, say, Saudi Arabia are Islamic extremists, and that's done by the state.

[hawkhuff]

Originally posted by Zamfir Well, I still hear about white supremacists dragging a black man behind a pickup truck, crosses being burned into lawns, minority law-abiding individuals being thrashed simply because of their race, vigilantes with hunting sights on their guns at the border, and other forms of intimidation (phone calls, broken windows and other vandalism...) being used against ethnic and racial groups in the United States. Not to mention more than a few abortion clinic bombings and Oklahoma City...

Yeah, but it's not happening every day or even frequently. The reason? Many in the KKK don't want to do the jail time. And they don't cut off heads.

 

How's that for the application of moral relativism? Both are wrong but what does one have to do with the other?

 

I know there are good moslems and yes I do know some. However, that's not the point either. But many of you apologists use this same old boring tactic.

 

Why do we let off an entire culture who makes women second class citizens, who cheer when we are bombed and 3,000 of us are murdered in the name of some 'peaceful' god and who teach their children to hate Jews and that they have no right to exist? A group who teaches their children that homocide bombing is the exalted reason for being?

 

Anyone who supports this lunacy is a lunatic themselves. And those who don't speak out are no better than the mother who looks the other way and says nothing when her children are being phyically and/or sexually abused by her husband. These types are WORSE than the abuser in my mind; they are the facilitators. Just so they can keep the peace with their mate which is FAR more warped, if possible, than the abuser. I lump the 'silent' moselems into this same disreputable mass of inhumanity. And these facilitators are peaceful? Yeah, right.

 

How anyone can defend this religion and culture in its present form is beyond me. Yeah, and I am the bigot. :rolleyes:

 

Tell me is there ANYONE more racist than a moslem?? Yes, those that defend them. You're no better than that mother in the home of those abused children.