Members FreestyleIntruder Posted December 11, 2007 Members Share Posted December 11, 2007 There's no point typing that if you can't understand the difference between an individual player's tone and comparative tone amongst players using the same equipment, which is like suggesting Picasso was different than Monet, even though they had the same tools available to them. That's not tone. With the same tonal palette available that's style, emotion and technique that creates a difference. You're 80% is off, too. Completely rolling off the tone knob can make a huge impact at the amp. Depending on the amp, rolling off the volume just a bit can make quite a dent, too. I see where you're coming from, and I DO understand the difference. But look, it's basic scientific methodology. If you have two different variables A and B, and changing A makes a bigger difference than changing B, then obviously A is the more important factor to the overall outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FreestyleIntruder Posted December 11, 2007 Members Share Posted December 11, 2007 i hate london!!!!! Me 3, can't stand the place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted December 11, 2007 Members Share Posted December 11, 2007 If you have two different variables A and B, and changing A makes a bigger difference than changing B, then obviously A is the more important factor to the overall outcome. I can't very well swap out my fingers though. At this point, they do what they do. I work on exercies to improve my dexterity and consistency, but my technique is what it is - it ain't changing radically. So variable A (finger tone) in theory has more impact - but in most cases it can't be changed radically enough to make a difference in tone. I'm not gonna start "hooking" the strings just cuz Jamerson did, for example - that does not feel comfortable to me. If I need more thump I push down a little harder on the string before plucking it (that's how i'd describe it I guess)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted December 11, 2007 Moderators Share Posted December 11, 2007 Can your band-mates hear you? Not to sound like a asshole. But. If you're a half-step off, you're gonna sound like ass. Unless it's a maj7 chord and you're a half-step flat. I know I make a couple of half-step flubs a night and I immediately get that funny grin from our guitar players after the song is over. Getting the groove right is paramount. And. I'd say tone is less important than groove. But. I would think playing in the correct key is pretty important as well. As I said. I'm far from perfect. I make plenty of mistakes onstage. But. In this instance I can't believe your band-mates couldn't tell there was a problem. Well, in their defense, it was only one chord, so maybe eight notes, twice during the song. Still, I was surprised they didn't hear it. I know I hear it when they do similar things. And yes, they could hear me. Even the keyboardist, on the other side of the stage, mentioned that he could hear me, but that he couldn't feel the bass as well as at rehearsal. So they could hear me all right. They just weren't listening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted December 11, 2007 Moderators Share Posted December 11, 2007 Exactly. Somethings wrong with the mix on stage for that to happen.I don't see how the band can groove if the drummer cannot even hear the bass - or if the guitarists can't tell you're a half step off. It does make one wonder, dunnit? But who said that the drummer couldn't hear me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted December 11, 2007 Moderators Share Posted December 11, 2007 Guess I won't be seeing you at another YFC show then. As a cover band, we do care about our audience. We are being paid to entertain them and bring the party. When we choose our songs, we (5 of 7 anyway) have to agree on them. Part of that criteria is choosing songs that we will think will have an impact with the crowd. I guess maybe it's different playing in an originals band. We've scrapped almost as many songs as we currently have in our setlist because they just didn't resonate with our audience. We do enjoy what we do though, and I think it shows in our performances. There's no going through the motions with us. I'm with you. There's a reason musicians are called entertainers. If one is playing for oneself and the music, what does one need an audience for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassesofalessergod Posted December 11, 2007 Members Share Posted December 11, 2007 I'm with you. There's a reason musicians are called entertainers. If one is playing for oneself and the music, what does one need an audience for? to turn them on to new things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted December 11, 2007 Moderators Share Posted December 11, 2007 So I take it you're not fans of these guys? Those guys suck! What are they thinking? Putting on a show for the audience? What kind of crap is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted December 11, 2007 Moderators Share Posted December 11, 2007 to turn them on to new things. Drinks? Drugs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members burdizzos Posted December 11, 2007 Author Members Share Posted December 11, 2007 Drinks? Drugs? If not for the audience, I'd have to pay for all of my own drinks every night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted December 11, 2007 Members Share Posted December 11, 2007 I'm with you. There's a reason musicians are called entertainers. If one is playing for oneself and the music, what does one need an audience for? Maybe because the audience is there to hear music, first and foremost? Is Billy Joel any less entertaining when he is confined to his piano bench - Elton John? Look at Deep Purple's Richie Blackmore - horrible stage presence. Are you saying that no one in their crowd is being entertained? Do musicians need to dress and act like clowns to be entertaining? Can't music, in and of itself, be entertaining? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members collinwho Posted December 11, 2007 Members Share Posted December 11, 2007 Can't music, in and of itself, be entertaining? Sure, but then why hire a band when I can just buy a jukebox and have people plug quarters into that all night? :poke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted December 11, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted December 11, 2007 Maybe because the audience is there to hear music, first and foremost?Is Billy Joel any less entertaining when he is confined to his piano bench - Elton John?Look at Deep Purple's Richie Blackmore - horrible stage presence. Are you saying that no one in their crowd is being entertained?Do musicians need to dress and act like clowns to be entertaining?Can't music, in and of itself, be entertaining? Yup, sure can. But the key is that the musician is playing *to* the audience. If he's just up there masturbating and and they happen to be voyeurs, they'll sense the disconnect and it detracts from the experience. Did you notice the irony of asking if musicians need to dress like clowns a few lines after mentioning Elton? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted December 11, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted December 11, 2007 Sure, but then why hire a band when I can just buy a jukebox and have people plug quarters into that all night? :poke: Yup. Lotsa bars that used to host bands eventually came to the same conclusion, and now have DJ's along with the digital jukebox. People don't want to pay $5 cover to watch some 20-somethings stare at their shoes or the fretboard for 4 hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators ThudMaker Posted December 11, 2007 Moderators Share Posted December 11, 2007 Did you notice the irony of asking if musicians need to dress like clowns a few lines after mentioning Elton? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted December 11, 2007 Members Share Posted December 11, 2007 Did you notice the irony of asking if musicians need to dress like clowns a few lines after mentioning Elton? Yeah, sortof. But Elton is (these days anyway) mostly behind his piano - usually all you see is the hat and shades. I'm all for entertainment, but not when it comes at the expense of the music. Kiss at least had some listenable tunes - though I'm not a fan of their corporate, contrived clown-like imagery. I'm also not a fan of their lyrics - most of which are contrived to sell product. GWAR is not as popular as kiss, because they did not have listenable tunes - it's 100% clown act with those guys. It's a tough call really, but I know a clown act when I see it. I don't get entertained at all watching guys jump around on stage like meth addicts. I don't get entertained by having hot lights blasted in my face, or tons of fog. I want to hear good quality music, first and foremost. If I want smoke and mirrors, I'll go see David Copperfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted December 11, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted December 11, 2007 Yeah, sortof. But Elton is (these days anyway) mostly behind his piano - usually all you see is the hat and shades.I'm all for entertainment, but not when it comes at the expense of the music.Kiss at least had some listenable tunes - though I'm not a fan of their corporate, contrived clown-like imagery. I'm also not a fan of their lyrics - most of which are contrived to sell product.GWAR is not as popular as kiss, because they did not have listenable tunes - it's 100% clown act with those guys.It's a tough call really, but I know a clown act when I see it. I don't get entertained at all watching guys jump around on stage like meth addicts.I don't get entertained by having hot lights blasted in my face, or tons of fog.I want to hear good quality music, first and foremost. If I want smoke and mirrors, I'll go see David Copperfield. It better be blow-me-away-no-better-yet-literally-blow-me great music if you're only gonna stand there and play. I go to see live bands to be entertained by *performers*....bands that can play music proficiently and have enough charisma and stage presence to keep me interested. Otherwise, why bother watching?.....may as well be a dinner-music band, and I may as well be in another room as long as I can hear it well enough. Calling a good performance "a clown act" is like calling expert musicianship "wankery". It merely denotes the fact that you haven't got any appreciation for that art form. And FWIW I've seen Elton a few times in the past several years and the ol' flamer still gets up and does a few of his parlor tricks. All depends whether the audience is reacting well....he's very sensitive that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members collinwho Posted December 11, 2007 Members Share Posted December 11, 2007 It's a tough call really, but I know a clown act when I see it. I don't get entertained at all watching guys jump around on stage like meth addicts. I don't really know how meth addicts jump around . . . but in my last band, I did plenty of jumping around, never at the expense of the music, but I absolutely never stood still either. Before I started going crazy when the music got loud, we were a big sounding band that got OK reactions, steady clapping between songs, etc. When I decided to up the showmanship, we had crowds going crazy, screaming at the top of their lungs between songs, dancing, etc. In any show there has to be a balance of showmanship and musicianship, if I would have been jumping around like a madman and screwing up every song, or never playing, no one would have responded, we would have been written off as attention whores. If I played perfectly, but had to stay still, people were civil, but no one remembered us. But when I made it a point to put on a show, but kept the songs in my head the whole time, people really enjoyed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted December 11, 2007 Members Share Posted December 11, 2007 It better be blow-me-away-no-better-yet-literally-blow-me great music if you're only gonna stand there and play. I go to see live bands to be entertained by *performers*....bands that can play music proficiently and have enough charisma and stage presence to keep me interested. Yeah that's important too - I never said anyone should just stand there. I'm just saying that the big light shows, the deafening volume, and the stupid outfits are not entertaining to me. Everyone's got a different idea I suppose of what is acceptable - but to me, if I have to see another shlub up on stage showing his goddam hairy chest through some cheeze leather vest, I think I'm gonna hurl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ec437 Posted December 11, 2007 Members Share Posted December 11, 2007 No problem. Your band could play that song if your keyboard player didn't suck. Damn:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted December 12, 2007 Moderators Share Posted December 12, 2007 Maybe because the audience is there to hear music, first and foremost?Is Billy Joel any less entertaining when he is confined to his piano bench - Elton John?Look at Deep Purple's Richie Blackmore - horrible stage presence. Are you saying that no one in their crowd is being entertained?Do musicians need to dress and act like clowns to be entertaining?Can't music, in and of itself, be entertaining? You miss my point. I'm not asking why the audience is there. I'm asking why the musician who plays for himself would care? Why would such a person go to the effort of playing in front of an audience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted December 12, 2007 Members Share Posted December 12, 2007 I'm asking why the musician who plays for himself would care? Why would such a person go to the effort of playing in front of an audience? Because the music is good and somebody might like it? Because it is fun to play in front of an audience? You say "plays for himself" - my definition of that is not giving a rats ass about what people may or may not think of your music. That is a commerical concern, and not an artistic one. Like I said, should the Blues Brothers have packed it in because their material didn't go over (for the wrong audience)? Should Zep have packed it in because their 3rd album was not well received? Should the Pistols have packed it in because some audiences didn't get what they were trying to do? Of course in a cover band there is less freedom - but that does not mean your band has to be the now-tunes, or a cocktail band. It is still possible to rock the boat and do something a little more fresh than Mustang Sally Brown Eyed Old Time Rock and Roll - maverick bands do it all the time and thank GOD for that - otherwise live music would likely cease to exist - all cover bands would just go with the same limp, tired-ass formula that has worked for "everyone else" - that's lame and like I said, someone's gotta rock the boat a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members der oxenrig Posted December 13, 2007 Members Share Posted December 13, 2007 The problem child isn't the guy who hauls in a huge amp but keeps his volume in check...it's the guy who has to have a huge amp *cranked* on stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassesofalessergod Posted December 13, 2007 Members Share Posted December 13, 2007 one thing that can be said about the Ox. He is the keeper of the flame of rock and roll for sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted December 13, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted December 13, 2007 ....and a problem child...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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