So I played through the PA the other night.

[wades_keys]

 

As a guy who plays gigs on weekends and goes to see bands when I'm not playing, I appreciate bands who have their {censored} together and play to the venue. It's the assholes with a pair of Marshall Stacks and a Fridge in a 75 person room that drive the bar owner to hire DJs and KJs.

 

Amen bro.

 

But see, I can get the tone I want and not blow people out of their seats.

 

So I can "play for myself" and still not be stupid loud - it's all about using the ears and getting a good mix regardless of any particulars with the setup.

[Thunderbroom]

 

A lot of things - personal preference being first and foremost. Also if the bass stage volume is already filling the club, then no need to add to that by putting the signal through the PA - I'm not saying I fit this category - I don't actually.

 

 

I always want my bass to be in the PA. This allows the engineer to mix for the room not what I think is best. I'm on stage playing; I don't want to go wireless to check the mix.

[Jugghaid]

 

Yeah - I agree too. Ya gotta have guitar and one drum mic at the very least in there. Though I'm a little mixed on whether bass should be in the PA - I'd say it depends, though so far I'm not a big fan of that.

 

 

I think it should definitely be in the PA, but it should be the tone from my rig, not a driect signal from my bass.

[wades_keys]

 

I think it should definitely be in the PA, but it should be the tone from my rig, not a driect signal from my bass.

 

 

Word - I wish I could afford a good speaker sim and try that.

 

In the meantime I'm gonna try mic'ing the cabs.

 

Who knows - I may go back to sending a DI from the sansamp to the board plus using the stage rig for monitoring.

 

What I don't like about that arrangement - for me - is that I am using a bi-amp setup and the sansamp side is for the 2x10's. So I've got bass rolled off and presence brought up a few db, plus a little growl from the drive.

 

That sound does not go over well through the PA....

[wades_keys]

 

I think it should definitely be in the PA, but it should be the tone from my rig, not a driect signal from my bass.

 

 

How are you pulling that off if you don't mind me asking? Are you mic'ing your cabs?

[Thunderbroom]

 

How are you pulling that off if you don't mind me asking? Are you mic'ing your cabs?

 

 

He could be using his head's DI.

 

I do this and have the choice of pre and post EQ. I go pre-EQ personally because what I dial in on stage may not be the best for FOH sound.

[isaac42]

 

Oh, I see what you're getting at. That wasn't where I was coming from though - but yeah that's an example of how paying attention to tone can kill the performance. That could be - but to me, it does not matter. The issue for me is that I have to have that "feedback loop" with my instrument - a big part of that for me is the immediacy of the sound from my rig - uncluttered with other sounds. That's where we differ - I'm all about playing and sounding my best - that is my priority. If the audience doesn't notice - I'm fine with that - as long as we're not blowing people out the door with stupid volume I think it's all good.

 

 

Sounds as though we're mostly in agreement, but, if you're looking to connect with your instrument, and don't care about the audience, you might as well stay home, and let those of us that want to connect with the audience do so.

 

I, too, want to play and sound my best, but that has to be secondary to connecting with the audience when we have one.

 

Just to make my point, last Saturday we played. the audience was having a great time. Some said they hadn't had that good a time listening to a band in forty years (we play a fair amount of psychedelic stuff, and that takes them back to their youth, I suppose). During one song, something I was playing didn't sound right. After the song, I realized that I'd been off a fret, playing off a C when the band was playing a B. Obviously, I wasn't playing at my best at that moment, but no one, not the audience, not even the rest of the band, noticed, because the rest of the groove was good. I'm not saying that this is the ideal situation, of course. I'd much prefer that I'd been perfect, laying down some awesome lines and making booties shake all night long, but that wasn't the case. In fact, the lines may have been awesome, but that one section, well, a half step sharp is a half step sharp, regardless of anything else. At rehearsal, I'd have been annoyed. At home, I'd have played it over and over until I got it right. In performance, though, I just shrugged my shoulders and promised myself I'd try to do better.

[Thunderbroom]

 

Just to make my point, last Saturday we played. the audience was having a great time. Some said they hadn't had that good a time listening to a band in forty years (we play a fair amount of psychedelic stuff, and that takes them back to their youth, I suppose). During one song, something I was playing didn't sound right. After the song, I realized that I'd been off a fret, playing off a C when the band was playing a B. Obviously, I wasn't playing at my best at that moment, but no one, not the audience, not even the rest of the band, noticed, because the rest of the groove was good. I'm not saying that this is the ideal situation, of course. I'd much prefer that I'd been perfect, laying down some awesome lines and making booties shake all night long, but that wasn't the case. In fact, the lines may have been awesome, but that one section, well, a half step sharp is a half step sharp, regardless of anything else. At rehearsal, I'd have been annoyed. At home, I'd have played it over and over until I got it right. In performance, though, I just shrugged my shoulders and promised myself I'd try to do better.

 

 

Great post.

[bnyswonger]

Depends on what?!?

 

I'd say it depends on the system, the environment, whether there is a FOH guy available and what he's been smoking, etc, etc. I'm really about eliminating as many variables as possible. We carry a portable system which may or may not include a sub - depends on the room. if so, the kick is in there. We don't play any rooms locally (unless it's a bigger show like the PDots at Southgate) where I need to be in the system and we don't have a full time FOH guy. Most portable systems struggle hard enough with vocals, so the less stuff running through them, the better.

 

What really is at issue here is awareness. You either have ears and are aware of what works or you don't.

[Jugghaid]

 

How are you pulling that off if you don't mind me asking? Are you mic'ing your cabs?

 

 

Combination of Mic and DI out of my Trace Elliot Preamp. Tht way the "DI" sound is actually the post EQ sound of my pre and the other signal is a mic on my cab. I bring my own {censored} so the sound dude can't give me any grief.

 

 

Get a good floor tom mic. They work great for bass cabs.

[isaac42]

 

I think it should definitely be in the PA, but it should be the tone from my rig, not a driect signal from my bass.

 

 

Or maybe you should get a bass you actually like the sound of. :poke:

[Jugghaid]

What really is at issue here is awareness. You either have ears and are aware of what works or you don't.

 

Truth.

[Thunderbroom]

I'd say it depends on the system, the environment, whether there is a FOH guy available and what he's been smoking, etc, etc. I'm really about eliminating as many variables as possible. We carry a portable system which may or may not include a sub - depends on the room. if so, the kick is in there. We don't play any rooms locally (unless it's a bigger show like the PDots at Southgate) where I need to be in the system and we don't have a full time FOH guy. Most portable systems struggle hard enough with vocals, so the less stuff running through them, the better. What really is at issue here is awareness. You either have ears and are aware of what works or you don't.

 

There's certainly many variables.

 

I just know for my band we will not play a gig without a full PA for the band. It's the reason we have our own PA for gigs where a venue's PA is inadequate or non-existent. We don't do this (gig) for secondary income and are willing to pay our soundguy well (more than an even cut out of the take for the night) to run our system and make sure we sound good when the situation necessitates it.

[wades_keys]

Sounds as though we're mostly in agreement, but, if you're looking to connect with your instrument, and don't care about the audience, you might as well stay home, and let those of us that want to connect with the audience do so.

I hear ya - the thing is, I get a good mix with the band and STILL don't care about the audience.

 

I'll admit it - when it comes to music I'm selfish.

 

But to me, a big part of sounding good is making the band sound good - that means the mix, including me, has to be even and not too loud.

 

I never said I don't connect - I'm no shoegazer but I'm no jumping jack monkey either. I make eye contact and all that fun stuff - it's just that ultimately, my needs are my priority:

I want my tone, regardless of what I have to do to get it (equipment wise).

 

If the band doesn't sound good, i don't sound good. So I set my volume accordingly, at sound check and leave it there - we all do.

[Zeromus-X]

When in doubt, I just put a pile of reverb on everything and add 100 ms of delay to the vocals. That always makes it sound better.

 

Hey, it gets us gigs apparently!

[funkrockfreedomfighter]

 

yup. as long as it don't sound like mud, and it produces a danceable beat, the masses will be happy.

 

 

The masses would be happy if they played Top 40 tunes, does that make it right?

[bnyswonger]

 

There's certainly many variables. I just know for my band we will not play a gig without a full PA for the band. It's the reason we have our own PA for gigs where a venue's PA is inadequate or non-existent. We don't do this (gig) for secondary income and are willing to pay our soundguy well (more than an even cut out of the take for the night) to run our system and make sure we sound good when the situation necessitates it.

 

 

YFC has a lot of members and a lot of information pouring off stage...it would take a whole lot of of gig experience for you guys to mix yourselves right, so you are taking the best approach.

[ThudMaker]

When playing larger rooms with decent PA/subs, no instrumentalist should want to carry the house with their rig. Playing a small gin joint is a completely different matter.

[wades_keys]

 

When playing larger rooms with decent PA/subs, no instrumentalist should want to carry the house with their rig. Playing a small gin joint is a completely different matter.

 

 

Truth.

[FreestyleIntruder]

But we're not talking about different people. We're talking about 1. That's called style. Tone isn't in the fingers anymore than it's in the instrument, anymore than it's in the amp. It's all part of one's tone. Tom Petersson gets his tone by splitting his signal between 3 amps for lows, mids and highs. Last I did a rig check, the mids had a slight bit of chorus. Now in the studio he requires(d) the speaker(s) to be mic'd and no DI. Also, in the studio he may play a 12, an 8 or a 4. Complete tonal difference, but you know it's him playing because of his style .

 

I have no idea who that is, but good for him

 

My point was that the difference between two players using the same stuff is going to be more than with one player using two different sets of stuff.

 

It's not just style. They will produce notes of completely different timbre, because they will be hitting the strings differently, and fretting them differently, and responding differently to the kinaesthetics of playing the instrument. Their tone will be different.

[Jugghaid]

Or maybe you should get a bass you actually like the sound of. :poke:

 

I have several. And I like the sound of them out of my amp way better.

 

I'm sure a clean signal from a Les Paul sounds great for all styles of music too.

[Les_Izzmor]

 

noticed, because the rest of the groove was good. I'm not saying that this is the ideal situation, of course. I'd much prefer that I'd been perfect, laying down some awesome lines and making booties shake all night long, but that wasn't the case. In fact, the lines may have been awesome, but that one section, well, a half step sharp is a half step sharp, regardless of anything else. At rehearsal, I'd have been annoyed. At home, I'd have played it over and over until I got it right. In performance, though, I just shrugged my shoulders and promised myself I'd try to do better.

 

 

Can your band-mates hear you?

 

Not to sound like a asshole. But. If you're a half-step off, you're gonna sound like ass. Unless it's a maj7 chord and you're a half-step flat.

 

I know I make a couple of half-step flubs a night and I immediately get that funny grin from our guitar players after the song is over.

 

Getting the groove right is paramount. And. I'd say tone is less important than groove. But. I would think playing in the correct key is pretty important as well.

 

As I said. I'm far from perfect. I make plenty of mistakes onstage. But. In this instance I can't believe your band-mates couldn't tell there was a problem.

[wades_keys]

 

As I said. I'm far from perfect. I make plenty of mistakes onstage. But. In this instance I can't believe your band-mates couldn't tell there was a problem.

 

Exactly.

 

Somethings wrong with the mix on stage for that to happen.

 

I don't see how the band can groove if the drummer cannot even hear the bass - or if the guitarists can't tell you're a half step off.

[Kindness]

I want to interject on one of the tangents.

 

I play for myself, the music and my bandmates. When I go to a show and think that the band cares more about me having a good time than they do about themselves, their music and their band, I am entirely turned off. I am not coming to listen to clowns entertain me. I am there to witness someone performing their craft at the highest level they can. They can be fun and entertaining, etc., but if I get the sense that I am somehow more important to them than their music... it just feels false.

[Les_Izzmor]

 

I want to interject on one of the tangents. I play for myself, the music and my bandmates. When I go to a show and think that the band cares more about me having a good time than they do about themselves, their music and their band, I am entirely turned off. I am not coming to listen to clowns entertain me. I am there to witness someone performing their craft at the highest level they can. They can be fun and entertaining, etc., but if I get the sense that I am somehow more important to them than their music... it just feels false.

 

 

I'd agree to that. I like to see a band that enjoys the music their playing.