How's that free healthcare workin' for ya?

[lug]

Prenounced fit enough to wait 1 year before cosmetic hangnail surgery by the Canadian Health Ministry.

[Jazz Ad]

That's how you treat yer ol' daddy ?

[bikehorn]

Prenounced fit enough to wait 1 year before cosmetic hangnail surgery by the Canadian Health Ministry.

That's only because they found out he was related to Stephen Harper

[bassgirl9]

I'll have to ask my cousin (brain surgeon) why she decided to move back here. I know she moved to the states to get more experience. She was working in Edmonton and spent most of her time kissing boo boos and stitching up hockey puck injuries, which was not what she was trained for. She moved to the states so she could do her job and get into research etc. (way more people there, so more brain surgeon work required)

So I'm interested to see why she came back to Canada. I'm sure she made more money there and worked more in her field.

[zesty brick]

As I said before....seems both sides are screwed. Private insurance is screwed with so many horror stories as are the free health-care stories. Just don't get sick or injured....anywhere....on the planet.

 

 

thats going to be hard with how easily i can get cheetos these days

[bikehorn]

 

I'm interested to see why she came back to Canada. I'm sure she made more money there and worked more in her field.

 

 

She probably found that it's hell for doctors to practice in the US relative to Canada.

 

In your cousin's case, she practices a specialty whose required (and expensive) facilities don't exist at just any hospital and there are probably only a handful of facilities in Alberta equipped for neurosurgery. Since US HMOs are loaded and the population is larger, these facilities are more plentiful in the US and thus super-specialised doctors have a better shot at getting a job, which is attractive to some frustrated Canadian super specialists. When he finally finished all his training in interventional cardiology, my brother nearly moved to Indianapolis until he found a position at University of Western Ontario simple because there aren't a lot of catheter labs around with open positions. If you take on work that you are qualified for but isn't your exact specialty and don't get to do what you trained for, your training in that gets considered unpracticed "out of touch" and further training is required to refresh it in order to practice again when you finally are able to, which is a big headache. On the plus side, Alberta compensates its physicians the best out of all Canadian provinces and territories and taxes them the least, so if she was able to find a position in a hospital with a neurosurgery department(in her case probably ideally a university faculty position with room for research, teaching and procedure development) she would be all set forever.

 

Group practices(often or maybe even usually required to have practice privileges at a US hospital) strongly favour "senior partners" and therefore two doctors performing the exact same procedure on the same patient for the same duration of time would be paid differently if one was higher up in the group practice pecking order. You are working just as hard but being paid less, and a portion of the money that is billed for your work goes to the doctors at the top. Here, doctors are in demand and there are a lot of incentives for them to take work basically anywhere, particularly underserviced areas.

 

Theoretically doctors are paid better and/or taxed less in the US but malpractice insurance can be insane like I said before, which reduces net income dramatically. It depends on the state and the doctor's specialty but any aspirations of healthcare reform in the US are going to have to begin with tort reform and anyone who thinks otherwise would be naive. Enough of this BIG CASH $ETTLEMENT RIGHT NOW bull{censored}. Provisions for legal action against medical practitioners was put in place to compensate victims of genuine medical incompetence, oversight or malpractice, not just because some uninsured trashbag would rather(or, can only afford to, since many lawyers guarantee a settlement and take their cut at the end) sue the doctor than pay the bills. This astronomical insurance compels doctors to leave their home state or to stop practicing normally, and instead take on lightweight things like attending to foreign tourists in medical distress or consult work. Some even practice abroad for parts of the year as semi-vacations. A lot of good doctors can't be bothered with the crap anymore and opt to get out of it or go elsewhere. Many of my dad's medical school friends who practice in the US have been reduced to this and a few have moved to Canada. The time, money and energy required to deal with frivolous medical lawsuits is exhausting and no MD wants to deal with that.

 

Corporate healthcare is a disease that's invading Canada, and it'll only be a matter of time before non-medical beancounters and useless MBA clowns start auditing doctors and asking why there were so many instances of this kind of test or that type of medicine being ordered. Financial types should never interfere with what a physician deems is necessary for a patient's treatment.

[WynnD]

So some of you prefer private industry rationing health coverage to Government rationing it. Hope you don't have a pre-existing condition that prevents you from getting any private coverage and the government doesn't want to take you either. (Private corporations skimming the least expensive clients and hoping that the government will take all the high risk clients. Corporations do that all the time.)

 

It's a mess that private insurance won't fix. (It's not profitable enough.)

[Super_Donut_Man]

Both systems as currently implemented have their flaws. If anyone has a better suggestion, feel free to suggest it rather than trade jabs.

 

 

+1

 

Although I hear about how flawed the US system is from my Brother (just about done with med-school), and my mom (nurse). I don't hear too much for the socialized med system, other than taking a huge waiting period to get done what you need done. So meh, both need work

[J.]

If the US goes to a socialized healthcare system (which I think is a possibility), I hope it would be as good as the one in France. Unfortunately, judging by the way we've run other social programs, it would probably be terrible. Care would be rationed in order to contain costs, and everyone would pay the price.

 

The problem with giving things away (make no mistake - we'd all pay for universal healthcare with our taxes, especially the wealthy) is that there is always unlimited demand. If a McDonald's location started to give away free burgers, people would be lined up around the block. The amount of human trash living in the United States would clog up the system. They'd contribute virtually nothing in taxes, yet they'd be showing up in the ER every doggone time they thought they had an ailment.

 

My mom saw the exact same problem when she worked at a hospital in WI during the 80's (before Wisconsin enacted welfare reform). The people on welfare were always in the hospital for every stupid thing because they didn't have to shell out a dime for care. I see the same thing at prison. Since healthcare is free for inmates, they go to see the doctor for the stupidest things. One guy bumped is elbow on his bunk and demanded a doctor visit. He didn't even have a bruise or a mark - but he still wanted to see the doctor. I had to stand outside the door and listen to the doctor put up with the inmate's complaining over his non-issue. If it was up to me, the only healthcare inmates would get would come in the form of a potassium chloride injection, but I digress...

[ec437]

If the US goes to a socialized healthcare system (which I think is a possibility), I hope it would be as good as the one in France. Unfortunately, judging by the way we've run other social programs, it would probably be terrible. Care would be rationed in order to contain costs, and everyone would pay the price. The problem with giving things away (make no mistake - we'd all pay for universal healthcare with our taxes, especially the wealthy) is that there is always unlimited demand. If a McDonald's location started to give away free burgers, people would be lined up around the block. The amount of human trash living in the United States would clog up the system. They'd contribute virtually nothing in taxes, yet they'd be showing up in the ER every doggone time they thought they had an ailment. My mom saw the exact same problem when she worked at a hospital in WI during the 80's (before Wisconsin enacted welfare reform). The people on welfare were always in the hospital for every stupid thing because they didn't have to shell out a dime for care. I see the same thing at prison. Since healthcare is free for inmates, they go to see the doctor for the stupidest things. One guy bumped is elbow on his bunk and demanded a doctor visit. He didn't even have a bruise or a mark - but he still wanted to see the doctor. I had to stand outside the door and listen to the doctor put up with the inmate's complaining over his non-issue. If it was up to me, the only healthcare inmates would get would come in the form of a potassium chloride injection, but I digress...

 

 

That's what I'm worried about.

[Anubis]

You are correct; they wouldn't have. Hospitals in the US are forbidden to turn away anyone that shows up in their ER; they are legally obligated to get you stable. This may mean an amputation rather than an operation, but they must get you stable.

I believe in my case that would've worked.

[King Kashue]

Just because some web site reports it doesn't make it a fact. That article was not sourced at all.

 

 

You mean, except for all the sources? Right?

 

 

[Jugghaid]

DIdn't we kinda solve part of this in the thread on the "other" forum KK?

[jasper383]

This is not entirely true. If you work, you pay for healthcare just like lucky US citizens do to private companies.

 

 

+1

 

Jeez, does anyone old enough to type actually think anything is free?

[Perfessor]

French healthcare is far from perfect but it's the best I've seen anywhere. Please don't try to cut it off.

 

 

If you're worried they'll cut it off I'd stay away from those doctors!

[Perfessor]

Actually the Dems plans are that everyone should be forced to buy health insurance just like you have to have car insurance. If you are unable to pay then Medicare would pick you up. That way the pool of people increases and along with the freeing up of interstate insurance, which is not allowed now, the cost would drop as competition heats up. For example why can't I buy insurance from a company in California?

At least that's the theory.

[FreestyleIntruder]

Canada needs to make private access to doctors legal

 

 

I'm not a Canadian and I'm not entirely au fait with the nuances of the Canadian health care system, but I would be inclined to agree with this statement

[jasper383]

I'm not a Canadian and I'm not entirely au fait with the nuances of the Canadian health care system, but I would be inclined to agree with this statement

 

 

It seems a bit much to make private medicine illegal, doesn't it?

[Hawkeye]

It seems a bit much to make private medicine illegal, doesn't it?

 

 

There are only 3 countries in the world with mandated public health care. Canada, Cuba, and North Korea. Hip replacements can take months or even years to get done. The same goes for cornea surgery.

 

As a Canadian, I'm fed up with the government pronouncements about how we have to pay more to keep our public health care system. There is a myopic ideological mantra that we cannot change the existing system, but the existing system stinks. Actually, we already have two-tiered health care but it's under the table.

 

There are private clinics in Canada where executives can receive specialized care and consultations (at a price). A small example of our two-tiered system was when my wife broke her foot. The hospital gave us the option of buying a lightweight blue cast for an additional $25 fee as opposed to the regular heavy white plaster cast. This is user pay, and I don't have a problem with it.

 

Plus, do you think one of the Toronto Maple Leafs or any other professional athlete has to wait 6-12 weeks for an MRI after an injury. Do you think the Prime Minister waits in line for 8 hours at the local Emergency Room to get treated? I guess not.

 

A recent news story I heard described how one Buffalo area hospital had one third of its beds taken up by Canadians.

 

The public system is not accountable for the money it spends and in fact, is getting to the point where its budgest will not be sustainable without tax increases. Health care is the single largest expenditure by government. Whereas the inflation rate is going up around 2-3% per year for most sectors, public health care costs are increasing as much as 12% per year in many provinces.

 

The last time I took someone to an ER, I noticed there were security guards there that were not there before. I guess they are having problems with sick people and their families becoming irrate after waiting for hours and hours to be treated. Putting band-aids on the problem and not doing good old root cause analysis. I'm sure you could hire a nurse for every 2 security guards.

 

The fact that your star Bolshevik candidate Hillary Clinton pushes doggedly towards publicly-funded health care should be scaring you guys.

 

A combination of private and public facilities is what is needed. Policy and guidelines established by the government for both public and private sectors and the private sector working alongside the public facilities leading the way in achieving productivity, continuous improvement, maximizing throughput, etc.

 

I also have an interest in this beyond a mere intellectual exercise, my daughter's studying to be a nurse.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

So some of you prefer private industry rationing health coverage to Government rationing it. Hope you don't have a pre-existing condition that prevents you from getting any private coverage and the government doesn't want to take you either. (Private corporations skimming the least expensive clients and hoping that the government will take all the high risk clients. Corporations do that all the time.) It's a mess that private insurance won't fix. (It's not profitable enough.)

 

 

Why would it take a government takover to fix this?

[bikehorn]

 

The public system is not accountable for the money it spends and in fact, is getting to the point where its budgest will not be sustainable without tax increases. Health care is the single largest expenditure by government. Whereas the inflation rate is going up around 2-3% per year for most sectors, public health care costs are increasing as much as 12% per year in many provinces.

 

 

Wanna know where a massive chunk of that is going? Administrative waste brought in by MBA assholes. Canadian healthcare is a government service, not private(right now anyway) and yet all of our hospitals are being made into "corporations" so that they can superficially resemble American hospitals. Now we have Starbucks and other such crap in hospitals. The administrative structure in most Ontario regional health networks(such as William Osler, which covers Etobicoke General, Brampton Memorial and Georgetown) is so horrendously cumbersome, bloated and inefficient that it's really no surprise where the "rising costs" are coming from. There are so many non-medical leeches(read: people with business degrees) in the system drawing huge six and maybe seven figure salaries while doing nothing useful.

 

As an example, the slogan for the William Osler network of hospitals, where my dad practices, a year or two ago was some generic corporate crap I don't really remember, which itself had only been in place for about two years. Then it was changed to "Caring for you, sharing for you". Sounds inconsequential in and of itself, but think about what went into that slogan change. A big old corporate meeting(or probably several) had to be held first, which means paid dinners and that sort of thing for all the corporate chiefs in the organisation, then some sort of PR or marketing agency was involved and paid to come up with something suitable. Once another such meeting was held to agree on it all, more meetings had to be arranged to "introduce" the "reinvented" hospital slogan to all the staff, and of course the slogan had to actualy be put into place, which meant replacing everything in three hospitals that had the old slogan printed on it. Lots and lots of signs, everything web-related to the hospital, all paper items and pamphlets would have to be discarded and replaced, all the old letterheads and such would no longer be useful - on and on and on. In the end, the slogan change effected nothing and did not increase the quality of healthcare in the facilities, yet it was deemed a necessary expense(likely in the millions), because these MBA assholes that have been hired by OHIP have nothing better to do and not being medical professionals, have really no connection to the hospital. They could just as easily have been hired by Coca Cola or something. 30 years ago there were no MBA assholes at the head of hospitals and the administrative structure was lean and trim.

 

If Ontario health ministry was serious about fixing healthcare in the province they would start by firing these morons, and watch the budget surpluses suddenly appear.

[Joey Joe Joe]

Correct me if I

[WynnD]

The government won't be allowed to exclude pre-existing conditions.

 

The Canadians pay 90% of US insured for better health care coverage. That 17% overhead that the insurance companies have would pay for all the uncovered US citizens. (That covers real costs, profits and ceo bonuses!) The US government does the same thing for less than 3%.

 

Ask the Canadians if real emergencies aren't covered. My Mother waited more than two years for her hip replacement. (At her own choice. Worried about having to go through the surgery more than once.)

[ec437]

Actually the Dems plans are that everyone should be forced to buy health insurance just like you have to have car insurance. If you are unable to pay then Medicare would pick you up. That way the pool of people increases and along with the freeing up of interstate insurance, which is not allowed now, the cost would drop as competition heats up. For example why can't I buy insurance from a company in California? At least that's the theory.

 

 

If so, that is something I could possibly get behind.

[rcz]

Actually the Dems plans are that everyone should be forced to buy health insurance just like you have to have car insurance. If you are unable to pay then Medicare would pick you up. That way the pool of people increases and along with the freeing up of interstate insurance, which is not allowed now, the cost would drop as competition heats up. For example why can't I buy insurance from a company in California? At least that's the theory.

 

 

my father-in-law is a republican, but he argues that a large single-payer (i.e. government) is really the only entity that can provide the necessary leverage to negotiate lower costs.

 

personally, i think we have health-cost insulation moreso than health-care insurance. i believe market forces can help contain costs if we change how we pay for our care. like bluescout offered, if we pay less in premium and receive less care, but also receive more freedom to choose based on our own cost v. quality assessment, we'd be far more likely to choose more reasonable care and not "expect a mercedes when a ford will do."

 

after all, i'd buy a lot more good brie, name brand cereal, and the best tomatoes at the store if i knew i'd be paying a $40 food co-pay either way. when i had LASIK surgery, i chose to pay $2900 instead of $1000 because i was more comfortable with the quality for that care than i would be for a simple diagnosis or physical. but if i had to choose between $75 and $100 for some other doctor and my current PCP (primary care physician), i'd still choose my current guy for what he offers me. other people would save the $25 for a dinner out. either way the insurance costs go down, we have more choice, and the care costs go down because there is competition.

 

robb.