Members mrblockofcheese Posted January 30, 2008 Members Share Posted January 30, 2008 What makes you think costs would go down? Private, for-profit healthcare providers are going to reduce fees out of the goodness of their hearts as a gesture of good will towards people who depend on them? And the cost will then drop so low that people would feel comfortable living uninsured? Have you even thought about what you just wrote?Competition between oil companies has not really resulted in the best deal for end users, has it? It's the same. A very particular type of product(or in our case a service) is in constant and huge demand forever. Unlike oil, healthcare will never become obsolete. If a few massive organisations are in charge of controlling its accessibility, distribution and remuneration that means they wield massive control which could drag the industry with them. If they collude to raise fees to line their own coffers, which would be astronomically lucrative and obviously in their interest, suddenly the "competition" which is supposed to "lower costs" has vaporised and instead the exact opposite happens: the cost goes through the roof and people think it's the "new norm". Oil companies work in collusion, and so will giant medical corporations. Something tells me you know very little about healthcare. Stop reading Conservapedia, homie. are you kidding me do you have any idea how a free market actually works? we don't have a free market in america. there are so many regulations that you can't just jump in and start providing health services. so let me explain to you how it works. lets say you've got three major health care providers in a country. they are all charging ridiculous rates. so i jump in and start providing the same services for cheaper. do you think everyone is just going to keep paying stupid high rates? no. so when i start taking business from the other guys their only choice will be to lower prices or go out of business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mrblockofcheese Posted January 30, 2008 Members Share Posted January 30, 2008 You're suggesting that government involvement is the biggest problem in Healthcare. I'm suggesting to you that it is not. but the doctors quitting has nothing to do with the healthcare issue. its not as though doctors will stop getting sued and quitting if the government take over healthcare fully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bikehorn Posted January 30, 2008 Members Share Posted January 30, 2008 are you kidding me do you have any idea how a free market actually works? we don't have a free market in america. there are so many regulations that you can't just jump in and start providing health services. so let me explain to you how it works. lets say you've got three major health care providers in a country. they are all charging ridiculous rates. so i jump in and start providing the same services for cheaper. do you think everyone is just going to keep paying stupid high rates? no. so when i start taking business from the other guys their only choice will be to lower prices or go out of business. Guess what. In a free market, you can be bought out, undercut, run out of business or colluded against. By the way, only a major corporation or a government agency is capable of providing the financial capital to sustain a group of healthcare facilities, so there's no such thing as "Mr Johnny Nice Guy independent healthcare". Just how is your Mr Johnny Nice Guy healthcare going to actually provide lower costs and remain profitable? Can it buy medical supplies in large enough quantities to get the same price as a bigger corporation it may be competing with? Is it going to skimp on hospital maintenance? Pay its staff less? Cover the interior of the hospital in advertisements? Recover its costs in hidden fees? Or perhaps even...step down its level of service? You really think that a significantly better quality of service is going to be provided for so little money that people are going to go uninsured? Are you serious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mrblockofcheese Posted January 30, 2008 Members Share Posted January 30, 2008 Just how is your Mr Johnny Nice Guy healthcare going to actually provide lower costs and remain profitable? Can it buy medical supplies in large enough quantities to get the same price as a bigger corporation it may be competing with? Is it going to skimp on hospital maintenance? Pay its staff less? Cover the interior of the hospital in advertisements? Recover its costs in hidden fees? Or perhaps even...step down its level of service?You really think that a significantly better quality of service is going to be provided for so little money that people are going to go uninsured? Are you serious? you've actually got alot of great ideas there. i think advertisements in the hospital would be great. and they could probably pay there employees a little less. and the price of technology always goes down with time. so yea i think some of your ideas a really good. i don't think they would step down their level of service because then people wouldn't want to come same thing with maintenance. but never the less your on the right track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bikehorn Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 are you kidding me do you have any idea how a free market actually works? we don't have a free market in america. there are so many regulations that you can't just jump in and start providing health services. So right here, you're saying a truly free market doesn't exist in the US. How is your proposal for a 'free market' medical system going to work, if there isn't a free market for it to work in to begin with? What are you driving at? The whole US economy and market has to magically change overnight, removing regulations and accountability so that your plan can be put into place? Are you 15 years old? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jazz Ad Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 actually, my whole point is that the government being involved in healthcare is why the system is so {censored}ed up. if there was no government involvement you wouldn't even need insurance because the price of medical services would drop dramatically. and i love how you basically defeat your own argument by saying that the system you love so much isn't efficient and cant even make a profit and you think that thats okay. also those numbers are meaningless because you don't tell us the differences in the actual budget. any government's budget is going to be larger than a "private" company because the government steals money to fund their operation. private companies actually have to make a profit by satisfying their customers which, you have already so helpfully admitted, government can't do.Wow. You win. I got nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators ThudMaker Posted January 31, 2008 Moderators Share Posted January 31, 2008 but the doctors quitting has nothing to do with the healthcare issue. its not as though doctors will stop getting sued and quitting if the government take over healthcare fully.Please explain how doctors quitting has nothing to do with the healthcare issue. I can't wait for your explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mrblockofcheese Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 Let's go back for a minute:So right here, you're saying a truly free market doesn't exist in the US. How is your proposal for a 'free market' medical system going to work, if there isn't a free market for it to work in to begin with? What are you driving at? The whole US economy and market has to magically change overnight, removing regulations and accountability so that your plan can be put into place? Are you 15 years old? well if you want to change to a socialist system are you proposing we change the entire system too? we're both proposing something be done i'm just saying the answer is with less government not more. no i wish i was 15 because you would be getting pwnd by a kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mrblockofcheese Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 Please explain how doctors quitting has nothing to do with the healthcare issue. I can't wait for your explanation. i apologize i meant to say that it has nothing to do with the issue of government involvement in health care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members anothertxn Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 Is it getting uncomfortable in here or is it just me? Seriously folks, cut the bull{censored} on the law thing. Yes, those involved in the law can occasionally be jackasses, but obviously that's possible in all professions. On the other hand, many lawyers do fundamentally positive things in our society. This generic bashing really does nothing to address the problems at hand while at the same time simply reinforces a stereotype that does not accurately reflect the circumstances. If you don't believe it, just ask yourself if you'd really tell Kindness to his face that he's better of dead solely on the basis of his profession, ignoring all the good attributes consistently on display within this foruml all of which I'm certain he carries over to his work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members takeout Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 Seriously folks, cut the bull{censored} on the law thing. Yes, those involved in the law can occasionally be jackasses, but obviously that's possible in all professions. On the other hand, many lawyers do fundamentally positive things in our society. This generic bashing really does nothing to address the problems at hand while at the same time simply reinforces a stereotype that does not accurately reflect the circumstances. If you don't believe it, just ask yourself if you'd really tell Kindness to his face that he's better of dead solely on the basis of his profession, ignoring all the good attributes consistently on display within this foruml all of which I'm certain he carries over to his work.Exactly. Everyone hates "lawyers" until they need one. Then, somehow, that lawyer is "different". "One of the 'good' ones", if you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators ThudMaker Posted January 31, 2008 Moderators Share Posted January 31, 2008 Seriously folks, cut the bull{censored} on the law thing. Yes, those involved in the law can occasionally be jackasses, but obviously that's possible in all professions. On the other hand, many lawyers do fundamentally positive things in our society. This generic bashing really does nothing to address the problems at hand while at the same time simply reinforces a stereotype that does not accurately reflect the circumstances. If you don't believe it, just ask yourself if you'd really tell Kindness to his face that he's better of dead solely on the basis of his profession, ignoring all the good attributes consistently on display within this foruml all of which I'm certain he carries over to his work.I've only seen one or two posts in this thread that seriously bashed attorneys and Kindness did an effective job of handling it himself. Great irony can be found in a post that generically bashes posters who are supposedly generically bashing lawyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members anothertxn Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 I've only seen one or two posts in this thread that seriously bashed attorneys and Kindness did an effective job of handling it himself. Great irony can be found in a post that generically bashes posters who are supposedly generically bashing lawyers. Before I proceed, I'd just like to point out that I'm not trying to pick a fight here, I'm simply responding to those that basically put death threats on a group of individuals simply because of their profession. I find that pretty offensive, considering I have friends in both that and similar industries (such as law enforcement) that get treated like crap by folks unjustly. Just the other day my friend's truck was keyed by a kid that was pissed to see a cop in uniform get out of it. On the other hand, I'm lucky enough to have a job that people tend to possess a great deal of respect for and get special treatment I don't honestly think I deserve because of it. Some call it a perk, but I consider it unfortunate because many other hard-working individuals make an equal or greater contribution to society and yet are dismissed because of rather uninformed stereotypes. This type of bias is amazingly prevalent in our society and considered disturbingly acceptable. I find that puzzling. As for the question of the posts, it's not so much the number as it is the message. It doesn't take many people saying particularly hateful things to deserve a response. The truth is, I doubt many of the posters actually believe what they write, but rather they are doing it for effect. That's fine, but it bothersome when Kindness steps up to the plate to suggest that perhaps individuals are crossing the line and not a single person puts for a word of support. I know Kindness can take care of himself, and I'm hardly trying to posse up on this thing. He's an obviously intelligent guy who I don't know in the slightest, so I'm not particularly attached to his "standing" in form. That said, I think it's rather depressing that people don't take into consideration the potential impact of their words on someone they otherwise respect, be it Kindness or anyone else, particularly when their message is inaccurate or incomplete in terms of the reality of the situation. I don't care to live in a PC culture really, but I think it's fair to say that blanket statements suggesting DEATH are probably unwarranted...if you are going to go that far, at least make it funny. I have no desire to regulate what other people say. I could care less honestly, but I hardly think I'm "bashing" in a way comparable to what some of the above posters state in regards to lawyers. I'm mostly just suggesting that perhaps some of the previous statements fail to illustrate the actual facts of the case at hand and in process tend to be pretty damn rude. It's quite possible I've fallen into the same trap, but I certainly don't claim to be perfect. Hell, in the end it's just arguing on the internet, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members collinwho Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 We've heard from you, a few times now, that the government is the reason prices are so high. . . how? You are missing a step or two in there somewhere. You need to support that argument before you are going to get anywhere here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NeonVomit Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 I don't really consider myself 'liberal' - that term means something totally different outside the US. I'm socially liberal I guess (I don't see homosexuality as an abomination, what two consenting adults do in private is no buisiness of mine) and the whole 'small government' thing doesn't really make sense to me. It certainly isn't very applicable in Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mrblockofcheese Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 Again: We've heard from you, a few times now, that the government is the reason prices are so high. . . how? You are missing a step or two in there somewhere. You need to support that argument before you are going to get anywhere here. mainly prices go up due to government regulation designed to "protect" the consumer. earlier some one brought up oil companies colluding to raise prices on gas and petroleum products. well did you know that the government has actually made that possible by outlawing the opening of new off shore drilling refineries? you see you can't just say i want to get into the oil business and go buy a piece of property and start drilling off shore. so the same companies just stay around because the government has outlawed competition. it works the very same for healthcare or any other industry. the government is in bed with the pharmaceutical and insurance companies. those companies have lobbyists that go to dc and just lobby for laws that will favor their company. like not allowing new guys to come in to the business with out paying large fees or making sure they get a larger cut of the medicare and medicade money. and thats just one of the ways government {censored}s you. don't forget that they're not even really providing you with healthcare i mean they're taking your money and then giving you this "service" and you don't even have a choice. at least now you get to choose which {censored}ty place you get healthcare from. if you really think about it i'm sure you don't want them in charge of your healthcare think of all they do that is just so inefficient. look at the big dig, look at ground zero {censored} man look at THE WAR IN IRAQ!!!! do you really want the guys who brought you that {censored}ing debacle providing you with healthcare? finally, if you still think government should steal your money to provide you with something you already have ask your self this: would you want them in charge of growing and delivering your food? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members collinwho Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 rhetoric Give me an actual example of the government causing health care prices to be higher. All I see here is the idea that the initial costs are too high for a new competitor to emerge, but that has nothing to do with the government. If the medical system was completely deregulated, the initial costs to open a hospital would still be astronomical. Right now federal government regulation of health care is fairly minimal as it is, and most of that regulation needs to be in place (licensing/certifying/registering doctors and nurses, tracking how medications are used and the effectiveness, etc) to protect the common good. Is deregulating suddenly going to cause insurance companies to grow hearts and start paying when they don't have to? Is deregulating suddenly going to cause malpractice lawyers to stop filing ridiculous lawsuits? How is deregulating going to lower costs? You have to realize, first off, that the initial costs of starting a competing health care system would be so high that it might be a stretch for even Bill Gates (your example from earlier). Its likely that a competitive deregulated hospital system (because it simply isn't possible to open up just 1 independent hospital, there would never be enough available resources for it to be effective) would actually have to charge higher than current prices just to break even. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators ThudMaker Posted January 31, 2008 Moderators Share Posted January 31, 2008 Before I proceed, I'd just like to point out that I'm not trying to pick a fight here, I'm simply responding to those that basically put death threats on a group of individuals simply because of their profession. . . . . . . . . .Hell, in the end it's just arguing on the internet, isn't it?Out of 141 posts so far in this thread, the above post is the only one that is anti-lawyer aside from another one or 2 that were very clearly jokes. If you would like to deny the serious weight of malpractice costs and legal CYA within the medical field you're more than welcome to do so, but that would indicate that you wish to deny facts. A doctor has posted here that malpractice is a centerpiece of practically every meeting he is involved in. I happen to be on the financial end of the industry and can attest to exactly what the doctor has personally witnessed. That's not lawyer bashing. That's suggesting that being an overly litigious society is putting serious strain on our healthcare system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lecomptebass Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 ...off shore drilling refineries... It's my understanding that refineries are usually land based and don't really have anything to do with drilling at all. We've got a few of them around here. That's how I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members anothertxn Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 Out of 141 posts so far in this thread, the above post is the only one that is anti-lawyer aside from another one or 2 that were very clearly jokes. If you would like to deny the serious weight of malpractice costs and legal CYA within the medical field you're more than welcome to do so, but that would indicate that you wish to deny facts. A doctor has posted here that malpractice is a centerpiece of practically every meeting he is involved in. I happen to be on the financial end of the industry and can attest to exactly what the doctor has personally witnessed. That's not lawyer bashing. That's suggesting that being an overly litigious society is putting serious strain on our healthcare system. Aurgh!!! I had a long response to this typed up and then accidentally closed the damn tab. If I get the time, I'll try to give you a decent return volley. Sorry about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bikehorn Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 Just to clarify, I am not at all anti lawyer and I even considered the profession myself....I am however anti crass lawyer. There are people in every profession who give the rest a bad name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted January 31, 2008 Moderators Share Posted January 31, 2008 I don't think anyone wants me to die based on being a lawyer, including the ridiculous statement by Psilocybin. I do appreciate that there is recognition that even obvious jokes of this nature are not pleasant to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dave Campbell Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 Just to clarify, I am not at all anti lawyer and I even considered the profession myself....I am however anti crass lawyer. There are people in every profession who give the rest a bad name. Yeah, I hear ya there. Lawyers, politicians and used car salesmen seem to have about the same level of integrity these days, generally speaking. Ever notice how lawyer and liar sound the same? How do we turn around an over litigous society? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted January 31, 2008 Moderators Share Posted January 31, 2008 How do we turn around an over litigous society? Learn to problem solve and cooperate. In nearly every instance, litigation is caused by unreasonable parties. It only takes two parties to be unreasonable for it to occur. Usually it is the parties themselves. Other times it is a party and that party's attorney. For example, it takes an unreasonable client and an unreasonable attorney to bring a suit if the opposing lawyer and client are reasonable. Similarly, both lawyers may be reasonable and be driven by unreasonable clients. In rare instances, both parties are reasonable and their attorneys are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lug Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 Learn to problem solve and cooperate.In nearly every instance, litigation is caused by unreasonable parties. It only takes two parties to be unreasonable for it to occur. Usually it is the parties themselves. Other times it is a party and that party's attorney. For example, it takes an unreasonable client and an unreasonable attorney to bring a suit if the opposing lawyer and client are reasonable. Similarly, both lawyers may be reasonable and be driven by unreasonable clients. In rare instances, both parties are reasonable and their attorneys are not. The above post has somewhat impugned the reputation of some subsection of the people of this forum. I would like to retain your services to start a class action suite against yourself. If you will provide your services for no upfront fees but rather 33.3% of the winnings, I think we can come to an understanding on this matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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