How's that free healthcare workin' for ya?

[txbass68]

What kills me about health care in the US is this: My wife and I work hard every day. A big chunk of our checks are taken out for medical/dental,vision coverage for us and our kids. They also take out taxes to support the county hospital that treats the lazy, non-paying, illegal, scum from south of the boarder and other free loaders. They get free care from county hospitals and do not even pay taxes. There are special insurance plans set up for their children that cost them $17 a month here in Texas. I pay my TAXES, but can not access this special insurance for my children. Instead I pay hard earned money for insurance, that sometimes is not even as good, for my children. That is just wrong. This is where the US needs to fix our insurance system. Allow me access to that affordable insurance for my children, also!

[txbass68]

By the way. I am not saying that all people from south of the boarder are scum. SOme of them come into the states legally and have jobs and pay taxes like the rest of us.

[ThudMaker]

my father-in-law is a republican, but he argues that a large single-payer (i.e. government) is really the only entity that can provide the necessary leverage to negotiate lower costs.

No offense, your Father-In-Law may vote Republican, but government managed health care does not mesh with anything the Republican Party is about. There are all issues to address that don't have to include socialized medicine for the masses, the least of which is the insurance industry and pharmaceuticals. Severe cap limits on malpractice, let alone the collateral bystanders who are brought into the suits as named defendants. But hey, that's what insurance is for, right? Lawyers need to be punished for suing everyone. There are all kinds of flagrant issues here. Are doctors still going to remove the right nut of the wrong patient occasionally? You bet. So of all those getting hammered, the lawyers get away clean. Forgetting the Pharmaceuticals, I would submit that the Insurance Industry and Lawyers are the biggest issues that need fixing in regards to health care.

[bassordeath]

I say the government has no business running anything. The Federal Government was only created to protect the country. Period. As in be the military and nothing else. Since then, it has become the "savior" of all who cannot provide for themselves, warranted or not. We can all thank the lawyers and politicians. They suck at budgeting, spending, saving and effiency. Nothing run well was ever run by committee. Nothing.

[rcz]

No offense, your Father-In-Law may vote Republican...

 

 

i didn't say he supports socialized healthcare, but rather that, even from his conservative perch, it appears only a single-payer system has the leverage to negotiate appreciably lower costs. but what does he know about the costs of health care? he's only worked as a chief legal and administrative officer at an HMO. it's not like it was part of his job to find ways to reduce costs and improve care through the leverage of patient volume. no, wait. yes, it was. that's kind of an area of expertise.

 

i will concede, though, like most republicans who have held office, his perspective on the role and power of government is different than maybe your garden variety conservative.

 

robb.

[J.]

Hospitals in the US are forbidden to turn away anyone that shows up in their ER; they are legally obligated to get you stable. This may mean an amputation rather than an operation, but they must get you stable.

 

 

Is this really true? I'm asking an honest question, not criticizing. If you showed up to a hospital with a severe arm injury and no insurance, would they really make a call like that? Let's say you cut your arm up with a homemade table saw, and got rushed to the ER. They can either amputate your arm for a cost of $10,000 or put you through more intensive surgery to save it for $50,000 (with an estimated 75% chance of success). Would a hospital really say "screw it, he can't pay so we're just amputating the darn thing?"

[thelurker]

Is this really true? I'm asking an honest question, not criticizing. If you showed up to a hospital with a severe arm injury and no insurance, would they really make a call like that? Let's say you cut your arm up with a homemade table saw, and got rushed to the ER. They can either amputate your arm for a cost of $10,000 or put you through more intensive surgery to save it for $50,000 (with an estimated 75% chance of success). Would a hospital really say "screw it, he can't pay so we're just amputating the darn thing?"

 

 

A very interesting question. For some hospitals, that would be policy, but IMHO, from exposure to the doctors I know, they would do everything possible to save the arm, because that doesn't cripple somebody for life. I read a good book by an ER doctor where a pharmacist was shot and brought in, then the perp was shot (by police) and brought in. Both received the emergency surgery that they needed, but since they had the same blood type, and there was only one pint left in stores, the Pharm. received the blood, the other doc had to operate without extra blood on hand. Both did survive.

 

Also, amputating a limb while it may still be saved would, IMO, be an issue for litigation. After that, the victim would have as much money as he needed.

[lug]

A very interesting question. For some hospitals, that would be policy, but IMHO, from exposure to the doctors I know, they would do everything possible to save the arm, because that doesn't cripple somebody for life. I read a good book by an ER doctor where a pharmacist was shot and brought in, then the perp was shot (by police) and brought in. Both received the emergency surgery that they needed, but since they had the same blood type, and there was only one pint left in stores, the Pharm. received the blood, the other doc had to operate without extra blood on hand. Both did survive. Also, amputating a limb while it may still be saved would, IMO, be an issue for litigation. After that, the victim would have as much money as he needed.

..but would have a harder time counting it.

[ThudMaker]

i didn't say he supports socialized healthcare, but rather that, even from his conservative perch, it appears only a single-payer system has the leverage to negotiate appreciably lower costs. but what does he know about the costs of health care? he's only worked as a chief legal and administrative officer at an HMO. it's not like it was part of his job to find ways to reduce costs and improve care through the leverage of patient volume. no, wait. yes, it was. that's kind of an area of expertise. i will concede, though, like most republicans who have held office, his perspective on the role and power of government is different than maybe your garden variety conservative. robb.

Just as an FYI I'm in the industry, too.

[WynnD]

Just saw Sicko. Apparently the US government already pays 60% of all healthcare costs. The Health insurance companies are cherry picking the healthiest clients and providing the most restrictive service. Greatest profits for healthcare insurers, leaving the most expensive clients for the Government to cover. (Our tax dollars at work.) And we all know that the Government isn't covering very many now and the uncovered numbers are going up daily.

 

Doesn't look like people in Canada are interested in moving down here for our health care. (Except maybe for cosmetic surgery that isn't covered.) It does look like Automobile manufactures are interested in moving to Canada where the wages are the same as here, but they don't have a healthcare responsibility.

 

See the film. There isn't a good reason to not go to a government run single payer system. (Unless you happen to work for a healthcare insurance company.) Its not socialized medicine. It is social insurance. (And the paperwork reductions are huge!) We have socialized fire, police, military and primary and secondary education. These are all very good things. As a citizen of the Country with the 37th best healthcare in the world, I would like to see some changes. The extra life expectancy would be nice. (It's looking like at least three additional years.) Not having to worry about what hospital I'm headed for would be nice too. (That's not what you get with commercial insurance.)

 

See the film than let's talk.

[collinwho]

Just saw Sicko. Apparently the US government already pays 60% of all healthcare costs. The Health insurance companies are cherry picking the healthiest clients and providing the most restrictive service. Greatest profits for healthcare insurers, leaving the most expensive clients for the Government to cover. (Our tax dollars at work.) And we all know that the Government isn't covering very many now and the uncovered numbers are going up daily. Doesn't look like people in Canada are interested in moving down here for our health care. (Except maybe for cosmetic surgery that isn't covered.) It does look like Automobile manufactures are interested in moving to Canada where the wages are the same as here, but they don't have a healthcare responsibility. See the film. There isn't a good reason to not go to a government run single payer system. (Unless you happen to work for a healthcare insurance company.) Its not socialized medicine. It is social insurance. (And the paperwork reductions are huge!) We have socialized fire, police, military and primary and secondary education. These are all very good things. As a citizen of the Country with the 37th best healthcare in the world, I would like to see some changes. The extra life expectancy would be nice. (It's looking like at least three additional years.) Not having to worry about what hospital I'm headed for would be nice too. (That's not what you get with commercial insurance.) See the film than let's talk.

 

 

I honestly do agree with parts of what you have said, but if your only source is a Michael Moore film, then its really not worth discussing.

[Hawkeye]

Just saw Sicko. Doesn't look like people in Canada are interested in moving down here for our health care. See the film. There isn't a good reason to not go to a government run single payer system. See the film than let's talk.

 

 

Not interested in moving because of health care, but I would move for the higher disposable income I'd enjoy from the lower cost of living and lower taxes.

 

I think if you re-read some of the comments in this thread by Canadians, you will realize that the Canadian health care system has plenty of significant problems too. Wait times have increased for most procedures despite a lot of money being spent on improving them, costs are completely out of control running 3 to 4 times inflation, and the current system will be completely unsustainable without increasing taxes (again) to cover the overruns. These are the things that Michael Moore ignores.

 

Only liberal Canadian policiticians and south-of-the border socialist re-engineers hold our system up as some kind of standard that other countries should emulate. Unfortunately the only other countries to have done so are Cuba and North Korea. Hmmm...

 

Like collinwho has said, the fact that you use a Michael Moore "documentary" as your source of information doesn't count for much.

[venturawest]

so, i think i'm the first physician of the bunch to chime in...

with a very, very deep insider's knowledge working in a major university hospital and the largest urban county hospital in the country, i could go on and on about the things that have been said here. however, it might be most easily summarized as this:

every single meeting i go to and every conference i attend, about 75% of the conversation is about how practices are struggling, how desperate physicians are thinking of closing up shop, and how poor reimbursements are becoming. they talk about malpractice, "defensive medicine" and protecting themselves to just be able to practice the craft that they spent 12+ years (and frequently more than $150K) learning. i have seen wonderful, caring, dedicated surgeons quit after losing a single unjustified lawsuit which discouraged them beyond belief.

now in contrast, i've not heard a single canadian surgeon - and i know plenty of them - complain about any of that stuff. their main compaint is simply that there isn't enough time to see all of the patients that they'd like to help as quickly as they'd like to. i do know some canadian physicians, including my closest friend, who are practicing here - and they all have the same complaints here. the ones in canada all talk about how thrilled they are with their jobs and positions.

in fact, i applied for a job at sick kids hospital in toronto for just those reasons.

[King Kashue]

so, i think i'm the first physician of the bunch to chime in... with a very, very deep insider's knowledge working in a major university hospital and the largest urban county hospital in the country, i could go on and on about the things that have been said here. however, it might be most easily summarized as this: every single meeting i go to and every conference i attend, about 75% of the conversation is about how practices are struggling, how desperate physicians are thinking of closing up shop, and how poor reimbursements are becoming. they talk about malpractice, "defensive medicine" and protecting themselves to just be able to practice the craft that they spent 12+ years (and frequently more than $150K) learning. i have seen wonderful, caring, dedicated surgeons quit after losing a single unjustified lawsuit which discouraged them beyond belief. now in contrast, i've not heard a single canadian surgeon - and i know plenty of them - complain about any of that stuff. their main compaint is simply that there isn't enough time to see all of the patients that they'd like to help as quickly as they'd like to. i do know some canadian physicians, including my closest friend, who are practicing here - and they all have the same complaints here. the ones in canada all talk about how thrilled they are with their jobs and positions. in fact, i applied for a job at sick kids hospital in toronto for just those reasons.

Well, no one's said the physicians are complaining in Canada...it seems to be the patients

[lug]

Serious Question. Are Canadian Physicians more protected from lawsuits? If not, is it just a systemic lawsuit culture here that causes this?

[King Kashue]

Serious Question.

Get out.

[J.]

so, i think i'm the first physician of the bunch to chime in... with a very, very deep insider's knowledge working in a major university hospital and the largest urban county hospital in the country, i could go on and on about the things that have been said here. however, it might be most easily summarized as this: every single meeting i go to and every conference i attend, about 75% of the conversation is about how practices are struggling, how desperate physicians are thinking of closing up shop, and how poor reimbursements are becoming. they talk about malpractice, "defensive medicine" and protecting themselves to just be able to practice the craft that they spent 12+ years (and frequently more than $150K) learning. i have seen wonderful, caring, dedicated surgeons quit after losing a single unjustified lawsuit which discouraged them beyond belief. now in contrast, i've not heard a single canadian surgeon - and i know plenty of them - complain about any of that stuff. their main compaint is simply that there isn't enough time to see all of the patients that they'd like to help as quickly as they'd like to. i do know some canadian physicians, including my closest friend, who are practicing here - and they all have the same complaints here. the ones in canada all talk about how thrilled they are with their jobs and positions. in fact, i applied for a job at sick kids hospital in toronto for just those reasons.

Pfft! Why in the heck do we need a physician's viewpoint? Healthcare decisions are best made by businessmen and insurance company executives. Haven't you learned anything?!?

[Joey Joe Joe]

Serious Question. Are Canadian Physicians more protected from lawsuits? If not, is it just a systemic lawsuit culture here that causes this?

 

 

I don't know about medical lawsuits specifically, but we get the impression that most Americans have at least one lawyer on speed-dial.

 

*runs away*

[lug]

I don't know about medical lawsuits specifically, but we get the impression that most Americans have at least one lawyer on speed-dial. *runs away*

presses "3" on cell phone to have lawyer file defimation of character suite

[Hawkeye]

so, i think i'm the first physician of the bunch to chime in... with a very, very deep insider's knowledge working in a major university hospital and the largest urban county hospital in the country, i could go on and on about the things that have been said here. however, it might be most easily summarized as this: every single meeting i go to and every conference i attend, about 75% of the conversation is about how practices are struggling, how desperate physicians are thinking of closing up shop, and how poor reimbursements are becoming. they talk about malpractice, "defensive medicine" and protecting themselves to just be able to practice the craft that they spent 12+ years (and frequently more than $150K) learning. i have seen wonderful, caring, dedicated surgeons quit after losing a single unjustified lawsuit which discouraged them beyond belief. now in contrast, i've not heard a single canadian surgeon - and i know plenty of them - complain about any of that stuff. their main compaint is simply that there isn't enough time to see all of the patients that they'd like to help as quickly as they'd like to. i do know some canadian physicians, including my closest friend, who are practicing here - and they all have the same complaints here. the ones in canada all talk about how thrilled they are with their jobs and positions. in fact, i applied for a job at sick kids hospital in toronto for just those reasons.

Thanks for weighing in. I wonder why it is we constantly hear that the shortage of doctors and nurses in Canada is directly attributable to them leaving for better paying positions in the U.S.? I have no reason to question your analysis, but if quality of work life is such a problem for US-based medical professionals, why do Canadian doctors go there? Many Canadian families do not have a family doctor. Practices are full and are not admitting new patients.

[Hawkeye]

I don't know about medical lawsuits specifically, but we get the impression that most Americans have at least one lawyer on speed-dial. *runs away*

 

 

Disturbing facts about lawyers.

 

70% of all the world's lawyers practice in the United States.

 

There as many students studying law in school now as there are total lawyers in the world.

 

Yikes.

 

Q. Do you know why they bury lawyers 75 feet down when they die?

 

A. Because "deep down" lawyers are really OK people.

[Thrash Jazz]

Well, no one's said the physicians are complaining in Canada...it seems to be the patients

Well, not exactly. Our media spins things just as much as anyone else's - and the Globe and Mail is one of those papers that's particularly good at making everything sound like it sucks.

This is the equivalent of a US newspaper article that reports only on the people who go to the hospital and then get nailed with tens of thousands of dollars in med bills that their insurance won't cover. Mysteriously, you never hear from anyone who has had only good experiences.

Crazy stuff like the article mentions does happen, but it's not an everyday occurrence like the paper wants you to believe. So, in response to your question, the "free" health care works just fine. Could use some improvement, but so can just about every health care system, including that of the US.

[King Kashue]

Well, not exactly. Our media spins things just as much as anyone else's - and the Globe and Mail is one of those papers that's particularly good at making everything sound like it sucks. This is the equivalent of a US newspaper article that reports only on the people who go to the hospital and then get nailed with tens of thousands of dollars in med bills that their insurance won't cover. Mysteriously, you never hear from anyone who has had only good experiences. Crazy stuff like the article mentions does happen, but it's not an everyday occurrence like the paper wants you to believe. So, in response to your question, the "free" health care works just fine. Could use some improvement, but so can just about every health care system, including that of the US.

 

 

Except it's not just this article.

 

I used to live in Detroit. I still have tons of friends who live in Windsor. They have always come to Detroit for their health care.

[Thrash Jazz]

 

Except it's not just this article. I used to live in Detroit. I still have tons of friends who live in Windsor. They have always come to Detroit for their health care.

 

 

What the article is implying is that people suffering from life-threatening injuries are frequently turned away and have to go to the US for care. I really don't buy that, just because every time that's reported in the news, it's on an individual basis and such reports are rare. Same thing in the US with the dude that gets a $75,000 med bill in the mail - it happens, but not as often as that.

 

It is true that a lot of people go to the US for medical care because they can get it faster, if they can afford it. I'm not contesting that. But there's a big difference between that and making a seriously sick or injured person wait to the point that it may kill them. I almost kicked the bucket a few years ago and as soon as they realized what bad shape I was in, I was being seen in the ER right away in spite of the full waiting room. Wait times may be long, but from everything I've read and heard they do know how to prioritize stuff like that.

 

Also, I lived in Windsor and I can tell you that isn't a good representation of the whole country. There has been a doctor shortage in Southwest Ontario for quite a while - I had a difficult time finding any when I was there, and the wait times were REALLY long in both hospitals, GP and specialist offices. Heck, even seeing the campus docs in the middle of the day sometimes took 45 minutes. It's just not that bad everywhere. Not even close where I am now, although I'd imagine wait times are probably still long by US standards.

[Jugghaid]

What the article is implying is that people suffering from life-threatening injuries are frequently turned away and have to go to the US for care. I really don't buy that, just because every time that's reported in the news, it's on an individual basis and such reports are rare. Same thing in the US with the dude that gets a $75,000 med bill in the mail - it happens, but not as often as that..

 

 

Not true at all, unfortunately.

 

Over two million people filed bankruptcy in this country in 2005. I have read studies (as I'm in the industry) where anywhere from 27% to 54% of these filings are PRIMARILY due to medical bills. Not just as a contributing factor.

 

Granted, that's a large spread, but if you take it right down the middle and call it ~40%, then you are talking about 800,000 people in a single year forced into bankruptcy by medical bills.

 

My brother in law, who I helped keep out of bankruptcy, got a bill for over $130,000 when he had a heart attack about 5 years ago. I settled all the bills for about $30,000 and the family helped him pay that off. But it's a pretty serious problem.