Gas Price Alert: Lieberman-Warner Climate Security Act

[lug]

Somehow I dont think we are going to have to "force" any crisis. At this point in our economic downturn, crisis will soon be unavoidable. If things keep going at this rate, I honestly wont be that surprised to see the United States regress to the status of a third world country within the next 20 years.

 

 

You understand that the last resession (end of Clinton II and of 1rst part of Bush term) was worse than now?

[jasper383]

Who's forcing a crisis other than the consumer?

 

 

The first post would be an example of the government, in their infinite wisdom, helping a crisis along.

 

Crisis drives innovation. We haven't reached a point (a tipping point, perhaps) yet where fuel prices really force a change in the way we do things.

[bassthumpintwin]

You understand that the last resession (end of Clinton II and of 1rst part of Bush term) was worse than now?

Think so? I cant really say for sure as THAT recession didnt affect me as much as this one is, so I didnt really keep up with it.

I just know people were whining just as much about gas prices going up to 1.25/gallon hahahah

If I only knew then what I know now.

Eitherway, the job market is crap, the real estate market is horrible, and gas prices are the highest they've ever been.

The economic stimulus package has just about come and gone, and for some reason, I dont see that doing too much for anybody long term.

I know my "stimulus" flew out the window just as fast as it came, and I'm in the same boat I was before.

[RSBro]

I think there's been enough "drive" to force innovation for a good while now... But I hope I'm not missing something obvious, but honestly, if it was that easy to come up with something as a viable alternative, we'd have done it by now.
There are smart people around doing crazy science {censored} all day long while we talk about basses, beers and broads.
I agree it may not be past the point where people are forming mobs in the streets, but what does OPEC have to gain by dropping prices and upping output? Nothing. So, why would Saudi and others do it? My gf's dad works over there, and they're eating this crap up, while laughing at us. But we have no pull, for the most part it seems. But it's a pipe dream, IMO, that it's gonna drop back to what it was. Not now, after the suppliers know our market and economy can support it.

[ThudMaker]

Crisis drives innovation. We haven't reached a point (a tipping point, perhaps) yet where fuel prices really force a change in the way we do things.

At this point with as spread out as members are in both my projects, it does have an effect on when and how often we can practice. The only crisis I personally have is that the pump stops at $75 or $100, depending on where I fuel up, without my tank being full.

[lug]

Think so? I cant really say for sure as THAT recession didnt affect me as much as this one is, so I didnt really keep up with it. I just know people were whining just as much about gas prices going up to 1.25/gallon hahahah If I only knew then what I know now. Eitherway, the job market is crap, the real estate market is horrible, and gas prices are the highest they've ever been. The economic stimulus package has just about come and gone, and for some reason, I dont see that doing too much for anybody long term. I know my "stimulus" flew out the window just as fast as it came, and I'm in the same boat I was before.

We aren't even in a real resession yet (unless, of course, you change the definition of what a resession is). It's a sign of how strong the economy was that we've had the housing fiasco, the oil prices, and other problems, yet the rest of the economy has kept our heads above water. The Stimulus package is just begining to hit the market (only people who file online and give the IRS access to their bank accounts have recieved any money yet) so we can't really say it's effect yet.

[willsellout]

I think there's been enough "drive" to force innovation for a good while now... But I hope I'm not missing something obvious, but honestly, if it was that easy to come up with something as a viable alternative, we'd have done it by now. There are smart people around doing crazy science {censored} all day long while we talk about basses, beers and broads. I agree it may not be past the point where people are forming mobs in the streets, but what does OPEC have to gain by dropping prices and upping output? Nothing. So, why would Saudi and others do it? My gf's dad works over there, and they're eating this crap up, while laughing at us. But we have no pull, for the most part it seems. But it's a pipe dream, IMO, that it's gonna drop back to what it was. Not now, after the suppliers know our market and economy can support it.

 

 

The technology is there it's the fact that they can't bring it to market because lots of people would lose lots of money. It will take another 20 years to bring the technology to market so as not to put people in the poorhouse, or it would take a dramatic demand increase or technology (such as a $10 gallon gas price) to get it moving in quicker. I think if it hits ten, you will see people scrambling to put new cars out.

 

 

Dan

[ThudMaker]

We aren't even in a real resession yet (unless, of course, you change the definition of what a resession is ). It's a sign of how strong the economy was that we've had the housing fiasco, the oil prices, and other problems, yet the rest of the economy has kept our heads above water. The Stimulus package is just begining to hit the market (only people who file online and give the IRS access to their bank accounts have recieved any money yet) so we can't really say it's effect yet.

The real estate market here was the second best in the nation last year. Our economy is doing well locally. And you are correct. We are not in a recession no matter what the doom and gloom reports would tell us. Not that I think everything is coming up roses, but it's not as bad as the media would like us to believe.

[In Absentia]

I'm a proactive person. I change my situation instead of bitching. It doesn't solve the world's problems, but it solves mine.

I disagree, I think your attitude does solve the world's problems with fuel. In fact, I think that if more people did adopt your attitude, we'd have less of a problem on our hands.

Personal responsibility FTW!!!

[bassthumpintwin]

I think there's been enough "drive" to force innovation for a good while now... But I hope I'm not missing something obvious, but honestly, if it was that easy to come up with something as a viable alternative, we'd have done it by now.

 

 

+1.

 

people have been crying about gas prices for years.

back when it was still less than 1.50/gallon people didnt think they'd be able to afford it and cried about how we'd

be running out of fossil fuels too soon.

 

And let's just say for the sake of argument that some genius invents an alternative engine or fuel that will get you 1000 miles for every drop of water that you put into it, and even that it "cleans and protects" the environment as you drive...

 

what are we gonna do with it?

 

it would cost billions to retrofit all of the automobile factories with the process needed to mass produce such a vehicle, and even then, you probably wouldnt be able to buy one for less than 50 grand.

 

And what if it was fittable to an existing automobile? it'd still be too expensive to appeal to the masses.

[kaiser_sosea]

Some people are where they are at because they must... Some live in rural area's and must commute to work to support their family. Rent or mortgages are usually cheaper in rural areas. It is hard for most people, at least most lower middle class, to just pick up and move, let alone finance a super efficient car. I understand this is driven by the consumer but we need to work, and if that means driving 1/2 hour then we have to buy gas...

When gas is $5 a gallon, I'll buy it. When gas is $10 a gallon, I'll buy it. It is a necessary evil... because of it's expense, I conserve fuel by driving a tiny Toyota pickup. What is NOT a necessary evil is commuters. There is no reason to work 40 or 60 miles from home. It's rediculously wasteful. If you must live that far away, then you need the harsh reality of a subway or city bus commute. I work three miles from my house. If I need to drive more than ten miles to work, I'll move.

 

[Craig Vecchione]

Frying oil thefts have dramatically increased in my area over the last two months. They had a piece on it on the local news the other night.

 

The Simpsons as real life......

 

Remember the episode where they stole Willie's "retirement grease"?....it was the school caf's deep-frier oil

[Craig Vecchione]

 

+1. people have been crying about gas prices for years. back when it was still less than 1.50/gallon people didnt think they'd be able to afford it and cried about how we'd be running out of fossil fuels too soon. And let's just say for the sake of argument that some genius invents an alternative engine or fuel that will get you 1000 miles for every drop of water that you put into it, and even that it "cleans and protects" the environment as you drive... what are we gonna do with it? it would cost billions to retrofit all of the automobile factories with the process needed to mass produce such a vehicle, and even then, you probably wouldnt be able to buy one for less than 50 grand. And what if it was fittable to an existing automobile? it'd still be too expensive to appeal to the masses.

 

 

FWIW, my complaint is that there's no justifiable *reason* for the price to have more than tripled over the last 5 years. It doesn't cost that much more to get it to the pump. It isn't in short supply..any shortfalls are 'manufactured' by simply taking a refinery off-line or simply reducing production. And everyone is pointing at someone else when asked 'why?'.

 

Now this new concept of high prices somehow being good for us, and the idea of simply getting a better job, "just take the train" or "just move closer to work". Yeah, that's {censored}ing rich. Some people really need to look past their own noses and wallets.

[The Real MC]

Blame the democrats, blame the oil companies, meanwhile everybody forgets that we have a president and VP in the White House with strong ties and investments in the oil industry. Notice they have not offered any relief to the oil crisis.

Expect that to change when the administration changes hands next year.

I'm buying a bicycle.

[Crescent Seven]

Notice they have not offered any relief to the oil crisis. Expect that to change when the administration changes hands next year.

[RSBro]

The technology is there it's the fact that they can't bring it to market because lots of people would lose lots of money. It will take another 20 years to bring the technology to market so as not to put people in the poorhouse, or it would take a dramatic demand increase or technology (such as a $10 gallon gas price) to get it moving in quicker. I think if it hits ten, you will see people scrambling to put new cars out. Dan

And I'm not ignorant enough (nor should anyone here be) to think that the buck (well, used to be...so let's just say money instead!) and the acquiring of more and more doesn't drive world politics, because it does, or at least in this instance. But you're right on here. I'm sure it's not easy to get funding or grants for alt energy sources and actual equipment or "pieces" to make use of them when everyone on the non-consumer side keeps saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

I just know there's gotta be alternatives out there. I just keep wondering where they are, and when they'll hit, if ever. I remember reading about some of the first solar car races they did out in Arizona nearly 15-20 years ago. Hell, at that time we were promised solar-panel equipped asphalt you could drive on, to power the electric cars on the tracks buried underneath the roads!

[Crescent Seven]

$10 a gallon gas would give me all the reason I need to develop a more efficient siphon pump.
C7

[bassthumpintwin]

[sludgebass69]

$10 a gallon gas would give me all the reason I need to develop a more efficient siphon pump. C7

[bbl]

FWIW, my complaint is that there's no justifiable *reason* for the price to have more than tripled over the last 5 years. It doesn't cost that much more to get it to the pump. It isn't in short supply..any shortfalls are 'manufactured' by simply taking a refinery off-line or simply reducing production. And everyone is pointing at someone else when asked 'why?'.

Funny, in searching for a reason for price increases, you mention supply, yet fail to mention demand.

There's your reason. Global demand.

Now this new concept of high prices somehow being good for us, and the idea of simply getting a better job, "just take the train" or "just move closer to work". Yeah, that's {censored}ing rich. Some people really need to look past their own noses and wallets.

Wow. Looking down our noses?

How long, in this country, have we had the luxury of living 20-30 miles from our job location and driving a car to work? Not long. And that IS a luxury. That luxury will become more costly as the population grows and our available land doesn't.

Moving closer to your job IS a solution. Taking mass transit IS a solution. Tbroom mentioned some solutions, too.

What's yours? Bitching? And to keep buying the same quantity of gas to ensure that prices stay high and go higher?

[bassthumpintwin]

Funny, in searching for a reason, you mention supply, yet fail to mention demand. There's your reason. Global demand. Wow. Looking down our noses? How long, in this country, have we had the luxury of living 20-30 miles from our job location? Not long. And that IS a luxury. That luxury will become more costly as the population grows and our available land doesn't.

 

 

ACTUALLY, he qualified the supply by referring to it as not being "short" there for it was somewhat obviously implied that demand was understood to be included.

 

to be able to qualify supply in any manner, you need to consider demand. He apparently did so by qualifying supply as more than adequate, or "not in short".

 

As for the second half of your argument, I don't even get what you are trying to say.

 

Driving anywhere from 30 minutes to more than an hour to work everyday is a luxury?

 

I dont know about you, but after working 8+ hours, I dont particularly enjoy tacking on the extra hour or two per day

burning gas and fighting traffic.

 

Unfortunatly, not everyone has an decent job market within 5 minutes of the housing they can afford.

[rcz]

The price of oil has devalued the dollar - The value of the dollar has little to no affect on the price of oil.

 

 

really? where does money come from? if, for example, we borrow a bunch of money to pay for a war we can't afford, where does that money come from?

 

we print more money to pay for our debts, increasing the money supply and decreasing the value of a single dollar. this is why the american dollar has fallen while the euro, the british pound, and even the canadian dollar have remained relatively stable.

 

the people in OPEC who trade oil in american dollars want the same value for their product as ever, so they ask for more dollars so that they don't lose money on the deal when trading with europe and the UK.

 

it's not a difficult concept, but people don't like to see the causal link between war and money throughout history. or, apparently, supply and demand. i think we're lucky oil doesn't cost more with india and china double-teaming the falling dollar.

 

as a side note, i was in amsterdam last week, and gas there was the equivalent of about $9 a gallon --

[solderjunkie]

On the subject of commuting....

Why is it that the HUD and ghetto housing is in the inner city??? Lets move all the non-working leeches out to the suburbs and give them a post office, a liquor store, and a Walmart.

That way, working people would not have to commute and our cities could be improved.

[bassthumpintwin]

Moving closer to your job IS a solution. Taking mass transit IS a solution. Tbroom mentioned some solutions, too. What's yours? Bitching? And to keep buying the same quantity of gas to ensure that prices stay high and go higher?

Depends on where you live.

The closer I get to where I work, one of two things happens.

Rental and Real Estate prices/taxes double and triple, or areas get much worse to live in.

If I really wanted to save money on rent, or buy the cheapest house in a decent neighborhood, I'd have to go 20+ miles farther from my job than where I am now.

Taking mass transit to where I work? Not an option. Nothing runs close enough.

Now, I could get a job in a bigger city like Chicago and make a little more money/year, but to move closer to chicago, you're living in drug/crime infested neighborhoods, or you're paying 400k for an 800sf condo. (or 1500/month)

That's why a lot of people that work in chicago live in Indiana.

[Jugghaid]

Now, I could get a job in a bigger city like Chicago and make a little more money/year, but to move closer to chicago, you're living in drug/crime infested neighborhoods, or you're paying 400k for an 800sf condo. (or 1500/month) That's why a lot of people that work in chicago live in Indiana.

Yup. Because Gary is SWEET!