Are keyboard players necessary?

[rhat]

Very true. It's hard to even get me to play organ sounds. The leader of my band kept trying to nudge me into playing more organ. He wanted me to get a Nord, because of the cool organ sounds, but I wasn't keen on it. First of all, I don't have much experience playing rock organ, and I don't feel it's one of my strongest suits as a musician. Second, I got on to board to be the piano player. That's the area in which I want to concentrate. I feel like having to switch sounds in songs is sort of gimmicky. Synths and MIDI are awesome tools for recording and production, but if I'm gonna be a musician in a live band, I'd like to feel like I'm playing a real musical instrument--not holding down fake strings and brass pads. I used to think synths were the coolest things as a kid and loved all the fancy sounds, but the mystique eventually wore off, and now I'd rather focus on my technique of actually playing the keys. Of course, I'm certainly not the type to make a big stink about little things like that. It is his band, so for certain songs where the band leader wanted organ, I switched to an organ sound on my keyboard. No big deal. We'll soon be adding another band member who's going to be handling some of the organ parts, so that should free me up to concentrate on piano, which is certainly fine by me. Although, I don't think it's only guys who can't play the instrument that like all the fancy sounds. That may be true in a lot of cases, but it also depends on the genre. If you're in a slick R&B/funk band, an electronic act, or an 80's style alternative band ala the Killers, sometimes those types of sounds are what is called for. Keith Emerson, Rick Wakeman and all those prog rock guys certainly liked the weird sounds, and you can't say those guys couldn't play.

 

 

 

Na they were monsters on a keyboard ..... for sure. I think one of the big reasons why you have the spit between old school and the more modern synth guys is that ... if you are old ,, the snyth really wasnt somthing you had access too. Back in the day only the big league had a snyth. The rest of the bands used B3s , Rhodes, and whurlys , and combo organs. In 1969 ,, i you wanted to play motown ,, ya got yourself a horn section.

 

Anyone thats played keys in a band that had a real horn section isnt going to be hog wild over being a snyth horn bitch. Alot of guys came up on boards that had the ability to mimic horns and they have that skill. From my point of view .... if you want horns , get some horn players. It does make for a big band... but then I like big bands. 7 to 10 on stage is a hoot. rat

[elsongs]

Speaking as a keyboard player...

 

Real *keyboard* players are rather rare. Most people who are "keyboard" players simply play the piano, and play it well, but don't know squat about what to do with a Hammond Organ or a monophonic analog synth.

[slight-return]

you can always fire up the drum machine

just a good ole metronome for me -- the drums dont fit so well with Aguado and Sor duets

[lest I start sounding like I should be wearing spandex trou...o wait, I bicycle...guess I'm screwed ]

[kurdy]

Speaking as a keyboard player... Real *keyboard* players are rather rare. Most people who are "keyboard" players simply play the piano, and play it well, but don't know squat about what to do with a Hammond Organ or a monophonic analog synth.

 

 

Guess that would be me. Call me a fake keyboard player, then. I can sequence some really mean Hammond Organ licks via MIDI, just don't ask me to play them in real time. The best I can do with organ is holding down pads, really--maybe with a rudimentary lick here and there. And I'm good with the standard glissandos, which are pretty easy to do with organ.

 

I'd rather be thought of as a piano player then a keyboard player, though. Nothing against other types of keyboard players--just isn't one of my aspirations anymore.

[ggm1960]

I see your point ,,, so many keyboard players never really have played with groups of musicians. They may be great on their own ,, but cant fit in with a band. I would guess the same would go for guitar players that only have played solo. The group thing is a skill you have to build no matter what instrument you play. Some people just have problems with that. rat

 

 

Man I think it boils down to rhythm and knowing when to back off and when to bang it out. I don't know but it seems almost as if these are the kinds of things you either have or you don't. I've never had any luck trying to explain those things to anyone that doesn't seem to have them.

[rhat]

Man I think it boils down to rhythm and knowing when to back off and when to bang it out. I don't know but it seems almost as if these are the kinds of things you either have or you don't. I've never had any luck trying to explain those things to anyone that doesn't seem to have them.

 

 

 

Yea to some degree .... I think its more of a mindset. The guy that cant play with other people ,, dont tend to try to fit in the mix and the tempo. They expect everything to rotate around them. I simply say they have rhythm issues.... Where it really shows up is when they try to play with another person or two without the aid of a drummer. guys that are solid tend to just lock on and it sounds great . they play as one unit and they mix the volume perfect..... guys that are not, it sounds like {censored}. They are totally oblivious to whats going on around them.

 

I dont know if there is a cure for that. I do know that when its sucking big time ,, they will all try to blame the sound guy for the bad mix. Its not rocket science its just experience. Back in the day you learned it in your first working band... .if you didnt learn it ,, you ended up back in the basment in another band. rat

[DevilRaysFan]

Considering that I am now the keyboard player in my band (starting two weeks ago switching from my primary instrument:bass), I would have to say 'yes!!' :D

[slight-return]

I dont know if there is a cure for that.

a musical director that will call you out ...or that one jury where you blow it !!!!

[tunz4all]

Speaking as a keyboard player... Real *keyboard* players are rather rare. Most people who are "keyboard" players simply play the piano, and play it well, but don't know squat about what to do with a Hammond Organ or a monophonic analog synth.

I think that this sums it up in a nutshell, at least for me. Excellent thread --- It is very interesting, considering that I have had occasion to 'audition' quite a few keys players in the last couple of years. Most have been very competent players. In my little world, a keyboardist is absolutely vital. Depends on what kind of stuff ya want to do, no? And when I say 'keyboardist', 'keys', 'piano player' or whatever, I always mean 'multi-keys player'. I am certainly no guitar virtuoso, but what I have seen (as far as my band is concerned, maybe not yours----and somebody made this point before), is that very few of them seemed to have much control over the vast world of sound *at their fingertips*, and most seem locked into one particular style.

Let's face it: afaic, the bar has been raised for keys players ever since the advent of synthesis, midi, sampling, and before, when that first piano player brought along both a Fender Rhodes and a B-3 to the gig (or that upright AND the baby grand, whichever happened first). These were the first 'multi-keys' players. Since my band does a very wide range of material, and floating a 10, 12, 15, 20-piece orchestra is not an option from practical and economic standpoints, I am still looking for a keys player that is 1.) interested in all kinds of music; 2.) can play all kinds of music; 3.) is a 'multi-keys' player and 4.) can select appropriate sounds from the world of sounds at his/her fingertips. Let's not even mention the pop/rock/jazz vs classical thingie.............OOOOPS!!

The bottom line is, from direct observation (in no scientific way), most that I have seen are just TOO locked into a particular style and TOO locked into a small, narrow group of sounds. Again, not a problem per se, except for my situation. If I had it to do all over again, I MIGHT just choose keyboards because of the vast world that could lie at my fingertips......OOOOOOOHHH!! NOONE should posess such power! Grant them the wisdom to WIELD IT wisely! .......But the guitar is also very awesome........I think I'll keep it.

[rhat]

I think that this sums it up in a nutshell, at least for me. Excellent thread --- It is very interesting, considering that I have had occasion to 'audition' quite a few keys players in the last couple of years. Most have been very competent players. In my little world, a keyboardist is absolutely vital. Depends on what kind of stuff ya want to do, no? And when I say 'keyboardist', 'keys', 'piano player' or whatever, I always mean 'multi-keys player'. I am certainly no guitar virtuoso, but what I have seen (as far as my band is concerned, maybe not yours----and somebody made this point before), is that very few of them seemed to have much control over the vast world of sound *at their fingertips*, and most seem locked into one particular style. Let's face it: afaic, the bar has been raised for keys players ever since the advent of synthesis, midi, sampling, and before, when that first piano player brought along both a Fender Rhodes and a B-3 to the gig (or that upright AND the baby grand, whichever happened first). These were the first 'multi-keys' players. Since my band does a very wide range of material, and floating a 10, 12, 15, 20-piece orchestra is not an option from practical and economic standpoints, I am still looking for a keys player that is 1.) interested in all kinds of music; 2.) can play all kinds of music; 3.) is a 'multi-keys' player and 4.) can select appropriate sounds from the world of sounds at his/her fingertips. Let's not even mention the pop/rock/jazz vs classical thingie.............OOOOPS!! The bottom line is, from direct observation (in no scientific way), most that I have seen are just TOO locked into a particular style and TOO locked into a small, narrow group of sounds. Again, not a problem per se, except for my situation. If I had it to do all over again, I MIGHT just choose keyboards because of the vast world that could lie at my fingertips......OOOOOOOHHH!! NOONE should posess such power! Grant them the wisdom to WIELD IT wisely! .......But the guitar is also very awesome........I think I'll keep it.

I think it comes down to keyboard players are locked into what they like to do. Some guys like to do it all... others like to play the piano, B3 and rhodes patches.. and just stay old school. You get the keyboard player that works for your band. One thing for sure though ,, is if you have a synth guy doing horns ,, you aint going to go up against a real full on horn band and hold your own if its a real solid full on horn band. you just cant beat that visual effect of having the real deals up there playing the horn parts. rat

[ggm1960]

Although keys were my original instrument they were superceded by guitar. Today I do both but my guitar abilities are still ahead of my key skills right now. However I get pretty anal about finding the sounds I need for any particular song we cover. These keyboards I have have literally 1000's of sounds plus the ability to tweak them indefinately. I have to use a little restraint but I usually find the right sounds, I think it's important to do so!

[wades_keys]

I have to use a little restraint but I usually find the right sounds, I think it's important to do so!

 

 

+1000.

 

That's pretty much my angle too.

 

I've seen too many bands where the kb player is using "stock" sounds to cover the parts and that is just lame.

 

There's a lot of power in the filter and envelopes if you're willing to take the time to get in there and tweak.

[Keyrick]

What many people don't realize is that all of the sounds available to a multi-keyboardist all have different playing styles.

Piano, by definition, is a percussion instrument. Depending on the genre, there are multiple styles that can be played. They can be pecussive, rhythmic, or solo, sometimes all in the same song.

Organ technique is completely different but can still be pecussive, rhythmic, or solo. But you don't hit the keys as hard, or as soft, as the song requires.

Mimicing Strings has a method, and mimicing Horns has a method, and they are all different from one another. You don't play strings like a piano and you don't play horns like an organ. Just because the interface has black and white keys, some folks think it is all the same, and it is not. And that is why some keyboardists are more comfortable playing a particular type of instrument, say a piano, and do not like to do horn parts, because they are not familiar with the proper technique, and aren't really interested in learning it.

How many times is a guitarist asked to play a crunchy rhythm part and a classical part, at the same time, in the same song? How many times is a drummer asked to provide the beat and play the timbales at the same time, in the same song? The answer is never. How many times is the keyboard player asked to play piano and strings at the same time? A bunch. Mixing technique and styles in the same song is the multi-keyboardists lot, and some are not always good at it. I know I am challenged frequently to provide Piano and Horns in the same song, at the same time, and sometimes it is just not possible for me to keep multiple rhythms in my head, and the other members of my band complain that I just don't want to do it. Of course they never have to. To those who complain about keys players, think about the above for a moment. Could you do what you are asking them to do?

Are keyboard players necessary? If you play covers in a wide range of genres, then yes. If you play I-IV-V blues in a bar, not so much!

Good luck.

Rick

[MartinC]

I'd love to have a keyboard player in my group-someone who could really just do pads, heavy intros, cool samples. Not really full on piano playing all the time. Probably something that could almost be programed. But, it's like, you get what you pay for. If you want that stuff to really be musical, you need a good musician. I mentioned this to another guy in the group and he goes: What we really need is a young guy who will hump all our gear, program and trigger the keys parts, and play bass for very little money"

I repeated back to him what he just said and we both broke out laughing.

[Kuhnfyoozed]

In the band I'm trying to get together now, I plan on doing guitar for the most part, with keys on a few songs. I'm looking for a drums, bass, 2 guitarists and keys setup with only 4 guys, so I stepped up to the plate and got some keyboard gear and got back up to speed on my keyboard playing so I wouldn't need a 5th guy who would only get to play every 10th song.

[Chunkytele]

I heard all of the arguments for and against, as far as the Genre I play ,R&B and Funk ,the keyboard is more important sound wise than the Guitar.

[tucktronix]

If you play I-IV-V blues in a bar, not so much! Good luck. Rick

 

 

But I can almost guarantee you, you will more than likely get more work with a keys player who is blues proficient than without one. There are a ton of trio blues bands out there w/o keys, and a proficient keys player will distance your band from the pack. Trust me on this.

[wades_keys]

But I can almost guarantee you, you will more than likely get more work with a keys player who is blues proficient than without one. There are a ton of trio blues bands out there w/o keys, and a proficient keys player will distance your band from the pack. Trust me on this.

I hear ya bro - so true.

I've seen even blues "purists" change their tune after hearing the band with a good keys player (this includes band members too).

Especially cool if the keys player can do tasteful solos - that really opens up the "tradeoff" possibilities...

[Outkaster]

What many people don't realize is that all of the sounds available to a multi-keyboardist all have different playing styles. Piano, by definition, is a percussion instrument. Depending on the genre, there are multiple styles that can be played. They can be pecussive, rhythmic, or solo, sometimes all in the same song. Organ technique is completely different but can still be pecussive, rhythmic, or solo. But you don't hit the keys as hard, or as soft, as the song requires. Mimicing Strings has a method, and mimicing Horns has a method, and they are all different from one another. You don't play strings like a piano and you don't play horns like an organ. Just because the interface has black and white keys, some folks think it is all the same, and it is not. And that is why some keyboardists are more comfortable playing a particular type of instrument, say a piano, and do not like to do horn parts, because they are not familiar with the proper technique, and aren't really interested in learning it. How many times is a guitarist asked to play a crunchy rhythm part and a classical part, at the same time, in the same song? How many times is a drummer asked to provide the beat and play the timbales at the same time, in the same song? The answer is never. How many times is the keyboard player asked to play piano and strings at the same time? A bunch. Mixing technique and styles in the same song is the multi-keyboardists lot, and some are not always good at it. I know I am challenged frequently to provide Piano and Horns in the same song, at the same time, and sometimes it is just not possible for me to keep multiple rhythms in my head, and the other members of my band complain that I just don't want to do it. Of course they never have to. To those who complain about keys players, think about the above for a moment. Could you do what you are asking them to do? Are keyboard players necessary? If you play covers in a wide range of genres, then yes. If you play I-IV-V blues in a bar, not so much! Good luck. Rick

 

 

Good post but people don't know what you mean unless they experience it.

[shniggens]

In my band, keyboard players are necessary.

I play keys, and I have the practice space.

[wades_keys]

I know I am challenged frequently to provide Piano and Horns in the same song, at the same time, and sometimes it is just not possible for me to keep multiple rhythms in my head,

 

I hear ya on that one - the toughest licks for me are where you have a left hand parts have with alternate legato/staccato falling on off beats...sometimes I wind up just playing the left hand "straight" without the proper phrasing but that always pisses me off (but mostly no one notices the diff anyway...)

 

 

and the other members of my band complain that I just don't want to do it.

 

Wow, really?

 

Maybe they don't have a good view of your hands and what you are going through to pull off your parts.

 

I know in my case that seems to work to keep any complainers silent - plus they know I'm my own worst critic so if I can fix it, I will.

[mickeydean]

i like playing with keyboard players. most of them are gay and don't drink.

 

win/win for me.

 

more women and more beer and less sharing of either.

[rhat]

i like playing with keyboard players. most of them are gay and don't drink. win/win for me. more women and more beer and less sharing of either.

 

 

 

 

You are only part right ,, the ones that are not gay are blind. rat

[Outkaster]

i like playing with keyboard players. most of them are gay and don't drink. win/win for me. more women and more beer and less sharing of either.

Good I drink and am not Gay and I would cokblock the rest of the band anytime I got the chance!