Are keyboard players necessary?

[way2fat]

I think he was on an old Quicksilver album too. Great player. "Edward the Mad Shirt Grinder" rules.

[rainbird]

Geekgurl said:


and it did. And I appreciated the encouragement, and your points
made sense to me. Sorry if the original posting stirred up
anything or anyone.

...and ...I'm not a guy.


Thanks again.

[RobRoy]

It is not hard to understand. Keyboard players are ALWAYS AN AFTERTHOUGHT. We know more musically than other band mates also, it is just that it does not fit. Most of us come up competing with guitar player and having to play every song in D,E, A and {censored}in B. Problem with a lot of keyboard players, including some on the keyboard forum are all into the classic rock thing and most of the time do not get exposure outside of that. They are so far up the ass of Wakeman, Tony Banks and all that stuff. I can tell a guitar player to play a song in Bb ot Gb and they cannot even do it half the time and search the fretboard. Imagine having to play a different hand position each time. That is why piano is so hard. It is such a pain in the {censored}in ass to be heard when you have two guitarists blaring their stacks of fender or Marshall amps. I am glad I am out of that FM rock thing. If I had to play 1,4,5 progressions now I would go {censored}in crazy.

 

Yeah.

 

I played trombone for 35 years before I took up the bass. Now I know why it is so easy to change keys for stringed instruments. Like the keyboard, the trombone requires completely different positions depending on the key. My bass, especially with five strings, is a piece of cake for transposing. The only time it is a bit of a problem is if I am all over the neck for a particular song. If I'm doing standard 1-4-5 stuff and nothing fancy, it is no prob.

 

I think keys can be the most versatile part of a band. My "new country" band just picked up a keyboard player and now we have banjo, mandolin, fiddle, organ and piano and a bit of steel guitar (it's less effective though) in our band. We'd have to be a nine piece to get that right without keys. We're a seven piece as it is (two female singers and a male singer).

 

Try splitting a gig take nine ways.

[rhat]

Yeah. Try splitting a gig take nine ways.

 

 

 

It all depends on how much you are splitting. My feeling is get the band up and running with how every many you can put on stage ,, and worry about the money later. great big band will typically make a great big paycheck.

 

I kinda chuckle at people who are worried about the splits before they even have the band up and going. The music comes first for me....Getting the good splits all depends on how good the music is. rat

[Blackened01]

I would play with a keyboardist if I could find one that actually understood the concept of how keyboards flow with a song... not overpower it. No offense to keyboardists. I play hard rock music and would love to incorporate keys into something, but I have yet to come across a keyboardist that knew how to put themselves into the mix without making it sound cheezy. I've seen it done PLENTY of times and know that it can be done, but finding someone willing to go there... Difficult.

[RobRoy]

It all depends on how much you are splitting. My feeling is get the band up and running with how every many you can put on stage ,, and worry about the money later. great big band will typically make a great big paycheck. I kinda chuckle at people who are worried about the splits before they even have the band up and going. The music comes first for me....Getting the good splits all depends on how good the music is. rat

If I were in it for the money, I wouldn't be in it.

And on a side note, stage size becomes an issue. We played the Ren Hen in Seattle's Greenlake area once. There was simply not enough room for seven on that stage. I banged the head of my bass on the ceiling so many times just trying to move (just change position) and SEVERAL of those times it knocked a string a half step or more out of tune. It became a joke.

I doubt we will play there again. It just isn't worth it.

[rhat]

I would play with a keyboardist if I could find one that actually understood the concept of how keyboards flow with a song... not overpower it. No offense to keyboardists. I play hard rock music and would love to incorporate keys into something, but I have yet to come across a keyboardist that knew how to put themselves into the mix without making it sound cheezy. I've seen it done PLENTY of times and know that it can be done, but finding someone willing to go there... Difficult.

Its been my experience that on keyboard its pretty hard to knock a guitar out of the mix. I view keys as a rhythm/ percussion instrument in rock band as their primary focus. As for the cheezy part ,,,, alot of that depends upon the quality of the keyboard ... cheap keyboards tend to sound cheezy. You can also make an expensive keyboard sound cheezy if you choose some cheezy combo organ patch. Pretty well every keyboard has those. rat

[Matter-Eater Lad]

Every other keyboard player I've worked with must think that since he paid two grand to get an instrument that has 600 sounds, he's going to use them all as often as possible.

With this my (limited) experience has been keyboardists seem to like two sounds: organ, piano. Here is one guy I knew who has two modern synths and a module in this band I was in, and we would request cool sounds and every damn time he would pick organ. I hate organ! I love 80's synth sounds but keyboardists seem to hate that era.

[slight-return]

. We played the Ren Hen

Hey Rob - fellow Seattlite here -- I don't know that venue (I'd ask if it was any good, but you might have implicitly answered that )

still, always good to keep on top of what's going on in the city...where abouts is it?

[rhat]

Same here! Totally agree. With this my (limited) experience has been keyboardists seem to like two sounds: organ, piano. Here is one guy I knew who has two modern synths and a module in this band I was in, and we would request cool sounds and every damn time he would pick organ. I hate organ! I love 80's synth sounds but keyboardists seem to hate that era.

 

 

 

 

I would guess the reason why key guys like organ and piano ,, is because they can play the instrument. Guys who have keyboard who cant really play the instrument like all the cool sounds. If you take a keyboard player on board ,,, The guy is going to want to play keyboards,, Not be a cool sound bitch. If thats what you are looking for ,, find a keyboard player that cant play ,,, and is willing to diddle with the cool sounds thing, since thats the only thing he can do. rat

[Tedster]

Your thoughts?

 

 

Where are you located? Keyboard players are about as common as fresh garden grown sweet corn in January around here.

[RobRoy]

Hey Rob - fellow Seattlite here -- I don't know that venue (I'd ask if it was any good, but you might have implicitly answered that ) still, always good to keep on top of what's going on in the city...where abouts is it?

http://www.littleredhen.com/

It is (or maybe "was") Seattles main "country/western" venue. The stage is a joke though. And it isn't just the square footage. It is the way it is shaped. VERY shallow.

I will say this: The dance floor is pretty much ALWAYS packed. If the stage had about another ten square feet it would be great.

[The Real MC]

How did I miss this thread?

I'm a multi-instrumentalist. I am most proficient on piano/keyboard followed by bass, drums, and rhythm guitar. Being a drummer and understanding the role of locking in the groove, I have no trouble locking with a drummer on LH bass. I have been in demand because of that versatility.

I've known too many "keyboard players" who don't understand the role of the other instruments in the band or know how to apply the world of sounds at their fingertips. I also know just as many bands that let the singer and lead guitarist hog the spotlight all night and won't elevate the keyboard role beyond background noise.

When I left the last band I was in, the band leader complained that he couldn't find a replacement. We were a popular band and a lot of musicians expressed interest in playing, but I guess I had spoiled him.

When I was younger I used to play in community bands - brass, reeds, flutes, etc. You earn a better appreciation of "fitting in the mix" when you play with an ensemble like that.

[slight-return]

http://www.littleredhen.com/ .

 

 

 

Oh! the (Little) Red Hen..yeah, that place I know

 

(not pulling your chain, you know how in cryptanalysis they say 'the short the sample/word the harder the crack' -- same here, couldn't get traction -- thought maybe "ren hen" was non-English thing)

[rhat]

How did I miss this thread? I'm a multi-instrumentalist. I am most proficient on piano/keyboard followed by bass, drums, and rhythm guitar. Being a drummer and understanding the role of locking in the groove, I have no trouble locking with a drummer on LH bass. I have been in demand because of that versatility. I've known too many "keyboard players" who don't understand the role of the other instruments in the band or know how to apply the world of sounds at their fingertips. I also know just as many bands that let the singer and lead guitarist hog the spotlight all night and won't elevate the keyboard role beyond background noise. When I left the last band I was in, the band leader complained that he couldn't find a replacement. We were a popular band and a lot of musicians expressed interest in playing, but I guess I had spoiled him. When I was younger I used to play in community bands - brass, reeds, flutes, etc. You earn a better appreciation of "fitting in the mix" when you play with an ensemble like that.

 

 

 

I see your point ,,, so many keyboard players never really have played with groups of musicians. They may be great on their own ,, but cant fit in with a band. I would guess the same would go for guitar players that only have played solo. The group thing is a skill you have to build no matter what instrument you play. Some people just have problems with that. rat

[RobRoy]

I see your point ,,, so many keyboard players never really have played with groups of musicians. They may be great on their own ,, but cant fit in with a band. I would guess the same would go for guitar players that only have played solo. The group thing is a skill you have to build no matter what instrument you play. Some people just have problems with that. rat

 

 

 

I am finding more and more reasons why playing trombone for a few decades really prepared me for playing in this sort of band.

[rhat]

I am finding more and more reasons why playing trombone for a few decades really prepared me for playing in this sort of band.

 

 

 

Yup School band and choir are great training for rock and roll. Most of the really good rockers in my area when i was young all pretty well came up through school music programs. The more of those types of people you had in the band typically the better it was. rat

[slight-return]

I would guess the same would go for guitar players that only have played solo.

It certainly canhappen with classical* guitarists as it's sooooo soooo common for them to work on solo pieces exclusively too early - I'm big proponent of the ensemble work
It tends to peak it's little head out as tempo instability -- OTOH, on nice thing is they get exposed to heavier polyphony (lots of contrapunctual stuff, etc) so you can tend to see all the lines as jobs to do not an S-E-P


The group thing is a skill you have to build no matter what instrument you play.

aint that the truth, that's another place I think structured ensemble activities can be a great place for folks to both cut their teeth and polish their mature antlers...it removes the "Oh, it's not in my artistic vision" (which often translates into "I can't") with "just play the part man"
It's a skills thing so we can hav the facility to "explore our inner child through the self-expression of music...or whatever "

and it ain't just a boolean - like folks are talkin "hey, I play in bands" - can sometimes mean "I only know how to deal with guitars"

There's the classic "rock band looking for cello" adverts which are almost invariably "play weepy legato stuff while I pretend that my emotional dysfunction is some insight into the nature of the spiritual multiverse....or whatever "

hmm, maybe I'm having "bad attitude friday...or whatever "



Addition...nay, slight-return... or whatever

[rhat]

It certainly canhappen with classical* guitarists as it's sooooo soooo common for them to work on solo pieces exclusively too early - I'm big proponent of the ensemble work It tends to peak it's little head out as tempo instability -- OTOH, on nice thing is they get exposed to heavier polyphony (lots of contrapunctual stuff, etc) so you can tend to see all the lines as jobs to do not an S-E-P The group thing is a skill you have to build no matter what instrument you play. aint that the truth, that's another place I think structured ensemble activities can be a great place for folks to both cut their teeth and polish their mature antlers...it removes the "Oh, it's not in my artistic vision" (which often translates into "I can't") with "just play the part man" It's a skills thing so we can hav the facility to "explore our inner child through the self-expression of music...or whatever " and it ain't just a boolean - like folks are talkin "hey, I play in bands" - can sometimes mean "I only know how to deal with guitars" There's the classic "rock band looking for cello" adverts which are almost invariably "play weepy legato stuff while I pretend that my emotional dysfunction is some insight into the nature of the spiritual multiverse....or whatever " hmm, maybe I'm having "bad attitude friday...or whatever " Addition...nay, slight-return... or whatever http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz7_3n7xyDg

One thing for sure ,, if you question if you are starting to get rusty on the group thing, you can always fire up the drum machine/ That puppy will rub the rust off on soloitis for sure ... rat

[slight-return]

There's always the "scary option"


Hey, prof so and so, I'm wondering if there is a way I can slot into one of the ens classes as a non-trad or audit or something?

we secretly hope for "sorry no spaces", but when we get

"Oh, we can probably find a place...when can we get you going?"

(Gulp) how about next...month..year..decade...life -- see I have this scheduling confli...kidney stones...demonic possesion...thing


just like early dating -- the only thing worse than "no" is "YES!"

[wades_keys]

aint that the truth, that's another place I think structured ensemble activities can be a great place for folks to both cut their teeth and polish their mature antlers... it removes the "Oh, it's not in my artistic vision" (which often translates into "I can't") with "just play the part man"

 

 

You have touched upon a very important truth that has been recognized and rewarded in music circles for hundreds of years.

 

I tend to word it more aggressively: "Those who refuse to play covers, probably can't play covers".

 

There is no better way to demonstrate musicality then to interpret and perform a recognized composition with great skill.

 

"Artistic Vision" can apply to the composition phase, but even when playing ones own compositions the expectation is to accurately render an already written piece.

[rainbird]

Oh, puh-LEEZ....let's not turn this into another
"covers vs. originals" battle....

Since I started this thread over a year ago, I have
happily re-joined the band I had quit back then, made
my peace with "Brown-Eyed Sweet-Home Mustang Sally," and all is right
with the world.

...and they don't expect me to play bass with my
left hand either.

Life is good.

LS

[slight-return]

wasn't my intent to go there (A structured ensemble class/practice is a specific context after all)

when we get to some things, I just go...whatever

[tucktronix]

Oh, puh-LEEZ....let's not turn this into another "covers vs. originals" battle.... LS

 

 

That's exactly what I was thinking:eek:

[kurdy]

I would guess the reason why key guys like organ and piano ,, is because they can play the instrument. Guys who have keyboard who cant really play the instrument like all the cool sounds. If you take a keyboard player on board ,,, The guy is going to want to play keyboards,, Not be a cool sound bitch. If thats what you are looking for ,, find a keyboard player that cant play ,,, and is willing to diddle with the cool sounds thing, since thats the only thing he can do. rat

 

 

True. It's hard to even get me to play organ sounds. The leader of my band kept trying to nudge me into playing more organ. He wanted me to get a Nord, because of the cool organ sounds, but I wasn't keen on it. First of all, I don't have much experience playing rock organ, and I don't feel it's one of my strongest suits as a musician. Second, I got on to board to be the piano player. That's the area in which I want to concentrate. I feel like having to switch sounds in songs is sort of gimmicky. Synths and MIDI are awesome tools for recording and production, but if I'm gonna be a musician in a live band, I'd like to feel like I'm playing a real musical instrument--not holding down fake strings and brass pads. I used to think synths were the coolest things as a kid and loved all the fancy sounds, but the mystique eventually wore off, and now I'd rather focus on my technique of actually playing the keys.

 

Of course, I'm certainly not the type to make a big stink about little things like that. It is his band, so for certain songs where the band leader wanted organ, I switched to an organ sound on my keyboard. No big deal. We'll soon be adding another band member who's going to be handling some of the organ parts (as well as guitar), so that should free me up to concentrate on piano, which is certainly fine by me.

 

Although, I don't think it's only guys who can't play the instrument that like all the fancy sounds. That may be true in a lot of cases, but it also depends on the genre. If you're in a slick R&B/funk band, an electronic act, or an 80's style alternative band ala the Killers, sometimes those types of sounds are what is called for. Keith Emerson, Rick Wakeman and all those prog rock guys certainly liked the weird sounds, and you can't say those guys couldn't play. You just gotta find a keyboard player who's into those genres.