Musicians that buy cheap gear

[Knottyhed]

 

Morning, Blue. I can acknowledge that whole line between 200 and 1200, sure. And like many, many people on this thread have said, that line can be upgraded and made quite serviceable. But yes, I am a gear snob. I think my disdain for that mid-level garbage came about in a band I was in about four years ago. Singer was just like you. Or probably much worse, since I dont really know you. He'd show up with that 200 dollar "Jackson" with the two year old strings on it. A string would break and he'd replace the one string and keep on chuggin'. He'd roll out his Yamaha solid state amp from '82 and proceed to wail away with its blown speaker and ice pick in the eardrum distortion sound. He'd happily plug his no name microphone into a Boss delay guitar pedal with {censored} cables on either side of it into my PA. He'd show up with a new 4x12 extension cabinet that he got off of ebay for 150 bucks with a grill so fragile on it that if you looked at it the right way you could dent a speaker; a speaker that if you thought you could hear a clear signal from, well, you guys with the mid-level concept would probably find the sound to be satisfactory. I'm the snob that has experienced the degradation of the overall sound because of the weak link in the band/chain. I'm the snob who takes pride in the purchases I make because, like I mentioned earlier, I learned a LONG time ago that just because you can afford only the bottom of the barrel RIGHT NOW, doesnt mean you should buy right now... its gonna cost you more in the long run as you constantly have to upgrade the stuff that can just barely get you by. I'd rather buy once and cry once, so to speak. And I'd much rather play with people who take pride in their sound/equipment as well. I'm that snob.

 

 

Imagine he'd turned up with a PRS private stock, imagine it had 2 year old strings and he used crappy cables with dodgy connection to plug into a Mesa Boogie with a blown speaker... why'd that be any different/less annoying?

 

Sounds to me like your problem is with people that don't turn up to gigs etc. with well serviced usable gear... that has no bearing on whether the equipment itself is boutique, custom shop or mid-level. It is more about the person and their attidude than the relative quality of the gear... Brian May used to play a home made guitar, with ply wood body, through a home made transitor amp. I guess you'd have been complaining about him and his {censored}ty tone if he was in your band?

[lonotes]

I think my disdain for that mid-level garbage came about in a band I was in about four years ago. Singer was just like you. Or probably much worse, since I dont really know you. He'd show up with that 200 dollar "Jackson" with the two year old strings on it. A string would break and he'd replace the one string and keep on chuggin'. He'd roll out his Yamaha solid state amp from '82 and proceed to wail away with its blown speaker and ice pick in the eardrum distortion sound. He'd happily plug his no name microphone into a Boss delay guitar pedal with {censored} cables on either side of it into my PA. He'd show up with a new 4x12 extension cabinet that he got off of ebay for 150 bucks with a grill so fragile on it that if you looked at it the right way you could dent a speaker; a speaker that if you thought you could hear a clear signal from, well, you guys with the mid-level concept would probably find the sound to be satisfactory.

 

But that's not mid-level. That IS crap. I straddle both sides of this debate, at different points. My main gigging amp rig (bass) is ThunderFunk TF550B through an Epifani UL410. For bigger gigs, I will use my Aguilar DB-659 pre into a QSC PLX 2402 or 3002. I might also add a pair of Aguilar GS-112's to the Epifani, if the room is big enough, or outdoors. This is by no means budget amplification. It's top level pro gear, by any metric that you choose. Some would even consider it boutique. Yet my three main gigging basses are all Lakland Skylines. Why? Because they sound great, and feel great to play. My 55-01 has a U-retro Deluxe preamp, the Bob Glaub came standard with a Lindy Fralin pick-up, my DPLEII came stock with a Darkstar pick-up. If you look into these components, you'll see that it is all high grade stuff. And yet I have about $1100 into the 55-01, I bought the BG used for $800, and the DPLEII was $1500, but it is one of 30, made as a special run. I'm just not into the whole hippie sandwich coffee table bass thing. I can readily agree that some of them are absolutely beautiful pieces of art, but they just don't trip my trigger. Lakland is a fantastic example of what I'm talking about, here. I would like to have a 55-02 or a 55-94. The 02 is made in Korea, with final assembly and electronics installed in Chicago. The 94 is made entirely, in the same shop, by the same personnel, with the same US made electronic and hardware components, in Chicago. The main differences? The 02 has a flatsawn maple neck, and fewer color choices. The 94 has a quartersawn birdseye maple neck and nicer flame or quilting on the body. The price difference? About $2000. If I go for the 02, it will be black, if I go for the 94, it will be Tealburst flame. In the dark, they will sound and feel the same. $2000 buys me a different finish. Is it worth it? I don't know, it is a damn nice flame .

[BlueStrat]

Morning, Blue. I can acknowledge that whole line between 200 and 1200, sure. And like many, many people on this thread have said, that line can be upgraded and made quite serviceable. But yes, I am a gear snob. I think my disdain for that mid-level garbage came about in a band I was in about four years ago. Singer was just like you. Or probably much worse, since I dont really know you. He'd show up with that 200 dollar "Jackson" with the two year old strings on it. A string would break and he'd replace the one string and keep on chuggin'. He'd roll out his Yamaha solid state amp from '82 and proceed to wail away with its blown speaker and ice pick in the eardrum distortion sound. He'd happily plug his no name microphone into a Boss delay guitar pedal with {censored} cables on either side of it into my PA. He'd show up with a new 4x12 extension cabinet that he got off of ebay for 150 bucks with a grill so fragile on it that if you looked at it the right way you could dent a speaker; a speaker that if you thought you could hear a clear signal from, well, you guys with the mid-level concept would probably find the sound to be satisfactory. I'm the snob that has experienced the degradation of the overall sound because of the weak link in the band/chain. I'm the snob who takes pride in the purchases I make because, like I mentioned earlier, I learned a LONG time ago that just because you can afford only the bottom of the barrel RIGHT NOW, doesnt mean you should buy right now... its gonna cost you more in the long run as you constantly have to upgrade the stuff that can just barely get you by. I'd rather buy once and cry once, so to speak. And I'd much rather play with people who take pride in their sound/equipment as well. I'm that snob.

 

Oh, so now it's gone from "student level is crap" to "mid level is crap".

 

Sorry, I despise elitists.

 

How's that Ferrari workin' for ya?

[gtrjones]

 

Morning, Blue. I can acknowledge that whole line between 200 and 1200, sure. And like many, many people on this thread have said, that line can be upgraded and made quite serviceable. But yes, I am a gear snob. He'd show up with that 200 dollar "Jackson" with the two year old strings on it. A string would break and he'd replace the one string and keep on chuggin'. He'd roll out his Yamaha solid state amp from '82 and proceed to wail away with its blown speaker and ice pick in the eardrum distortion sound. He'd happily plug his no name microphone into a Boss delay guitar pedal with {censored} cables on either side of it into my PA. He'd show up with a new 4x12 extension cabinet that he got off of ebay for 150 bucks with a grill so fragile on it that if you looked at it the right way you could dent a speaker; a speaker that if you thought you could hear a clear signal from, well, you guys with the mid-level concept would probably find the sound to be satisfactory. I'm the snob who takes pride in the purchases I make because, like I mentioned earlier, I learned a LONG time ago that just because you can afford only the bottom of the barrel RIGHT NOW, doesnt mean you should buy right now... its gonna cost you more in the long run as you constantly have to upgrade the stuff that can just barely get you by. And I'd much rather play with people who take pride in their sound/equipment as well. I'm that snob.

 

 

I take great pride in my sound/equipment. I just don't believe I have to spend $$$$ on brand-names to achieve great tone. Just because YOU couldn't see this guy for a moron and punt him from your band doesn't mean that my MIM telecaster is crap. Not by a longshot.

 

Last night at the gig I played a guitar I paid about $500 for - part of that was cheap because I traded something I got a great deal on, but most of that was because it was a no-name guitar. But it was a pine-bodied telecaster, w/ a nice fat maple neck, laquer finish, Lollar pickups, etc. If it were a Fender guitar, it would have cost $2K or more. And it sounds like an expensive guitar.

 

I'm a snob, too. But I'm a snob about value.

[ctoddrun]

Oh, so now it's gone from "student level is crap" to "mid level is crap". Sorry, I despise elitists. How's that Ferrari workin' for ya?

 

 

 

 

Elitist, ha.

 

 

I only used the word mid-level because I was trying to spare your feelings, my friend.

 

Use all the garbage you want. Makes me no difference.

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Truth be told, like Knotty said, my problem probably IS more in line with how my experience with a guy(s) with cheap gear was/is. Its probably tainted my overall view. I think its just an overall vibe I get when someone shows up with crap. I see it as a reflection on the type of musician they are. If you show up for practice in tattered shoes, I'll likely judge you for that too... Cuz I'm cool like that.)

 

Now where did I put my driving gloves, anyway?

[lonotes]

Well, I can see how you would NEED high dollar gear, if you couldn't play. But a talented player can make anything sound good. It's all about the ability, not the gear.

[wades_keys]

 

Elitist, ha. I only used the word mid-level because I was trying to spare your feelings, my friend. Use all the garbage you want. Makes me no difference.

 

Hey bro, have you ever heard any of Pat's music?

 

Why not go give a listen before trying to throw around your thinly veiled insults.

 

I'd like to see you get tone like he gets on "Don't touch my Guitar" from your high end stuff...

[ctoddrun]

You guys are funny.

 

 

If I like high end gear:

 

a) I cant play

 

and

 

b) I couldnt possibly get a tone to match someone I've never heard of.

 

 

 

 

Lighten up.

 

None of us are going to change our minds on the subject.

 

 

I'll stick with my elitist stance, you guys continue to believe I suck because of it.

 

We're all good.

[wades_keys]

 

You guys are funny. If I like high end gear: a) I cant play and b) I couldnt possibly get a tone to match someone I've never heard of. Lighten up. None of us are going to change our minds on the subject. I'll stick with my elitist stance, you guys continue to believe I suck because of it. We're all good.

 

 

I never said you suck, but when you tell a guy who actually gets great tone to "Use all the garbage they want" - it kind of weakens your arguments, ya know what I mean?

[ctoddrun]

 

I never said you suck, but when you tell a guy who actually gets great tone to "Use all the garbage they want" - it kind of weakens your arguments, ya know what I mean?

 

 

 

 

 

Not really.

 

I dont see it as weakening my take at all.

 

 

 

If the guy sounds good on the gear he uses, I'd be shocked if he didnt sound even better on really good stuff.

 

 

Maybe I'm not typical, but dont most people (especially us piggish Americans) constantly upgrade in life?

 

Cars

Houses

Women

Musical equipment?

 

 

 

I know if I was still driving the VW Rabbit I got in high school, I'd be pretty embarrassed to show up at a black tie event in it.

 

I know if I was still living in the crappy apartment with a room mate I had in '88, I'd be pretty embarrassed.

 

I know that if I were still dating the first girl I ever kissed, I'd at the very least wonder about all the other women out there, but more than likely I'd be bummed that I never had the luxory of trying out *several* of them over the years to find what I wanted most out of "her".

 

And I know that if I showed up at a paying gig playing that Kramer Striker guitar I started with, well...

 

 

 

 

But maybe its just me.

 

 

 

 

(fun conversation fellas. thanks for entertaining me this morning)

[lonotes]

I know that if I were still dating the first girl I ever kissed, I'd at the very least wonder about all the other women out there, but more than likely I'd be bummed that I never had the luxory of trying out *several* of them over the years to find what I wanted most out of "her".

 

But there's a fairly wide range between that fat hooker with bad breath, and Elizabeth Hurley. A lot of it is quite nice, as well

[Knottyhed]

I'll stick with my elitist stance, you guys continue to believe I suck because of it. We're all good.

 

But you're wrong!

 

Seriously - my 3 main guitars, a EBMM silhouette (

[wades_keys]

 

(fun conversation fellas. thanks for entertaining me this morning)

 

The pleasure is all mine.

[ctoddrun]

So let me get this straight.

 

 

If I like nice things, its a flaw in my character somehow.

 

 

 

Do you comb your hair when you leave the house?

 

If so, couldnt I argue that its all about image with you as well?

[RobRoy]

 

Well, I can see how you would NEED high dollar gear, if you couldn't play. But a talented player can make anything sound good. It's all about the ability, not the gear.

 

 

Remember that song, "Touch of the Masters Hand"?

[wades_keys]

 

If so, couldnt I argue that its all about image with you as well?

 

I play the gear that I can afford and that works for me; yet don't pass judgement on those that feel differently.

[RobRoy]

 

So let me get this straight. If I like nice things, its a flaw in my character somehow. Do you comb your hair when you leave the house? If so, couldnt I argue that its all about image with you as well?

 

Combing your hair is free. It is not a financial decision.

 

I like nice things. But like I say to my kids, all adults now, it is not what you have that counts, but how you treat, use and maintain it.

 

There is an older neighborhood near me that is nothing but identical small two bedroom ramblers (built for Boeing workers during WWII), but most of them are meticulously maintained. It looks really nice. Meanwhile, there is another neighborhood with more typical "new style" homes on postage stamp lots that, after three years, has oil stained streets, dead lawns, and all the other trappings of "white trash".

 

Most of this whole discussion is about what people can afford. Those of us that make deep six figure incomes (or more) can pretty much choose what we spend on gear. Unfortunately, most musicians that have been pursuing it since their teens are in relatively low paying jobs, no matter how old they are. And the good news is that many of them have discovered that they don't need the guitar collection of my ex-neighbor Paul Allen to sound better than good.

 

But if you've got the money and it is a high priority, go for it!

 

I do not judge a man by the money he makes, but rather by what he does with the money he makes. That is, if I judge at all (which I shouldn't).

[RobRoy]

 

So let me get this straight. If so, couldnt I argue that its all about image with you as well?

 

Image? See my avatar? That is a $139 bass I am holding. I get comments even from musicians. Lots of them.

 

Several of them have shown up weeks afterwards with their own instruments from the same place and they LOVE them.

[wmcjhi]

I play the gear that I can afford and that works for me; yet don't pass judgement on those that feel differently.

 

 

Play the gear you like, tone is subjective. Music is highly subjective. The only other thought I'll offer on the issue is that this business is often highly based on image. Think of ZZ Top. What do you think? What if they showed up on stage with nothing but flourescent overhead lighting, well groomed facial hair, and squire strats? Now what would you think? Not saying it's right or wrong, but it's often the way it is.

 

edit: 1 more bit.

 

You can get REALLY nice cheaper guitars/basses. I rock a $299 Ibby that sounds awesome with the right EQ to me. Wouldn't trade it for 3/4 of the $1500 basses I've played in GC. I also have an American Strat that is unmatched from everything else I've played.

 

My buddy bought a $300 schecter electric this weekend. The store we went to had probably 10. I played all of them. 9 were horribly awkward and uncomfortable. 1 was amazing. Guess which he bought? You can definitely get some great deals on less expensive stuff too. Even with the great deal, his neck PUP is muddy. If he likes it, cool, if not he'll be replacing it. That's the same trip I bought my C-1 Classic and I like the seymour duncan jazz at the neck much better. Preference.

[wades_keys]

How about a little context then...

 

I know that if I were still dating the first girl I ever kissed, I'd at the very least wonder about all the other women out there, but more than likely I'd be bummed that I never had the luxory of trying out *several* of them over the years to find what I wanted most out of "her".

 

The "luxury" of "trying out" other women - what, are they cars????

Like I said, shallow and materialistic...

 

Or this:

I'm the snob who takes pride in the purchases I make because, like I mentioned earlier, I learned a LONG time ago that just because you can afford only the bottom of the barrel RIGHT NOW, doesnt mean you should buy right now...

 

Or this:

Maybe I'm not typical, but dont most people (especially us piggish Americans) constantly upgrade in life?

Sounds materialistic to me.

[ctoddrun]

 

I play the gear that I can afford and that works for me; yet don't pass judgement on those that feel differently.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not to bust your balls or anything...

 

 

 

You've decided that I'm pathetic, have self esteem issues, am shallow and misogynistic, all in just a few posts, hell, you've downright called me names (ya big 'ol meanie) all because I dont share your view on bargain basement instruments.

 

But you dont pass judgement?

 

 

 

 

(this is where I insert the eloquent eye roll smiley that says without words, "umm.. whatever, Dude": ____ )

[lonotes]

Here's an interesting contrast in instruments;

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vdJvHE8qxA&mode=related&search=

 

Victor Wooten is playing his $8000 Fodera, and his brother Reggie is playing a $179 Squire. You can't see it so clearly on the You Tube link, but on the DVD, the pullback shot that occurs at 3:30 very clearly shows the Squire logo. By the way, on the DVD, this sequence occurs shortly after Victor gives credit to his brother for teaching him how to slap and double thumb.

[wmcjhi]

 

How about a little context then...

 

 

I'm not trying to start a fight, it just seemed a little contradictory. I can understand the frustration though, some people's views seem so entrenched that you feel like just beating your head on a wall.

[RobRoy]

Play the gear you like, tone is subjective. Music is highly subjective. The only other thought I'll offer on the issue is that this business is often highly based on image. Think of ZZ Top. What do you think? What if they showed up on stage with nothing but flourescent overhead lighting, well groomed facial hair, and squire strats? Now what would you think? Not saying it's right or wrong, but it's often the way it is.

 

I've been playing about nine years. Befort that I had never heard of Squire, Rougue, or Behringer.

 

99% of the audience does not know what brand you use. They only know what your gear looks like. Run a $150 SX bass into a $300 behringer amp and a $350 red Tolex Avatar Neo 2x12 and you look VERY impressive indeed.

[ctoddrun]

 

I can understand the frustration though, some people's views seem so entrenched that you feel like just beating your head on a wall.

 

 

 

 

 

We all have our opinions. No one is (likely) gonna post something on the internet that will change that.

 

 

The people who get frustrated and start beating their heads against the wall over someone like myself should probably step away from the keyboard and realize that there is nothing I can say (let me rephrase that: nothing I have said in this thread) that is worthy of giving you heartburn.