Opinions--I get subbed for at every big event

[BlueStrat]

I'm on this planet to do , not to suffer , especially not at the hands of others.

 

 

I don't mind suffering if it's for something meaningful. Too many people, though, especially Christians, suffer for the wrong reasons. Suffering to hide Jews from Nazis, for instance, is a good reason to suffer. Suffering to not make waves in the OPs situation, not so much.

[badhabit]

Hey, goosefartfan, thanks for the thoughts, but I think you have missed a couple of important details ... First, the couple of guys who have been brought in for me are from out of town--FAR out of town. So this is definitely not a case where there is any chance that either would replace me permanently (barring a long-distance move). I have no fear whatsoever that I am going to be replaced on a weekly basis. What I do fear, greatly, is that the next time a big/fun event comes along, band leader will again pay to bring someone in from out of town to replace me. Second, whereas all of the regulars in our band are just volunteers, the two guys who have been brought in to fill in are professionals, as in pay for play, studio musician-type players. And, as I had said before, they are FAR above the rest of the band in talent level, most definitely including the band leader. Finally, regarding church leadership, I am quite certain that this is not coming from them. I am quite close to the pastor and others in key leadership positions--so close, in fact, that regarding something like this, I very rarely bring it up to them. I want to avoid, at all costs, the appearance that I would ever be using my friendships with them to influence a situation for personal reasons. For that reason, I would never even think about bringing it up. However, our church is big enough that the pastor has 1000 other bigger things on his plate, and he has no day-to-day involvement with the music ministry other than very general oversight. So he may well have no idea as to why this guy was playing that Sunday and may well have thought I was just out of town that week or something like that. I had a couple of conversations with close confidants about this over the weekend. Received some interesting comments. First, I asked both people for completely neutral assessments of the situation. Both offered me the opinion, though I hadn't requested it, that as far as a comparison of talent goes, I am at least on par with our drummer, better than the bass, and better than our band leader. I trust both people enough to tell me the truth and not just tell me something I want to hear--they have both delivered PLENTY of painful opinions in the past. So again, that's the real irony of the situation--it is NOT a case where the leader is trying to find a guitar player up to his talent level because I don't fit the bill. To the contrary, it was very obvious that the leader was far outclassed, from a talent perspective, when the other guy filled in. Second, I got some interesting feedback from both regarding the weekend youth event the replacement came for, as well as when he took my spot in the Sunday morning service. Both said that the replacement's level and manner of soloing was so over the top that it became a distraction to the worship. For those of you from a traditional band/play for normal gigs setting, this might be a little different. In those settings, the whole "look at me" thing is perfectly acceptable--in some ways, it is the whole reason for playing out. But in the worship context, both of my confidants said that in every case, they were enjoying a good time of worship, focused on the act of worshipping, and then frequently what the replacement would play (either full-on solos, or lead lines thrown into the middle of songs) would be very distracting from the act of worship. Now, you have to understand, what this guy was playing often was not just melodic lead lines mixed in with the guitars (I play that kind of stuff all the time), but full-on, blazing, light speed solos, even throwing in some tapping sometimes. Again, in the usual gig context, go for it--perfectly acceptable, and I would be all for it. But in worship, the end game is not just a raw display of talent, but ultimately the music should point to God rather than the one playing it, and my two confidants both were of the strong opinion that this guy's playing absolutely drew attention to the guy playing it rather than where the attention should be. Leading worship is unique in the music world because there are two required skill sets: (a) the skill set of raw musical ability; and (b) the skill set of understanding the dynamics of a worship service and playing/singing in such a way that you advance, rather than get in the way of, the purpose of worship. All of us who have been in worship services have seen people who have loads of talent in area (a) but not so much in area (b), and their time in a worship service becomes the "look at me" show. This can go for singers, guitar, and anyone up on stage. Now, don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't believe soloing or lead guitar has a place in worship. Far from it; I incorporate some of that regularly. But there is definitely a line somewhere--and I think that with blazing, tapping solos thrown in the middle of songs in which they obviously did not fit, this guy crossed that line, wherever it is. So now that adds to my dilemma. Not only do I not like being replaced in big events, it would also trouble me if our leader really desired to take our worship services in that direction, with raw musical showmanship having a higher priority than the true spirit of worship that ought to be our main focus in such a service. Uggh. So that's the update on the situation for now. Other than that, I am still praying and thinking about how to handle it. Not a clue so far.

 

 

WOW, lots of territory to cover here. Preface, I was an integral part of one worship band for ten yrs. and also filled in as an alternate for another worship band. I know what it is supposed to be like.

 

First, what's SO GREAT about this particular worship band that a ringer needs to be brought in at "special events". Doesn't the band sound good enough not to do this? I mean, really, who cares that the guitar slinger from outa town is a hot shot? How does that make the worship band so much better to listen too? And again, why couldn't you BOTH play, with you on rhythm and him on the leads. Or alternate, he takes some songs and you get others. Why no one has considered this is beyond me. I do not understand a MD who would do such a thing.

 

I get how the "look at me" attitude is completely inappropriate in a worship context. And I get how soloing, generally, is not done very much in most corporate worship music I have performed in the past. So I can see how it would be extremely distracting, to the point of annoying. So I have zero idea why your MD wants this. Isn't he held accountable by others? What does the congregation have to say about this? In my church, had something like this taken place, all the people in charge would have heard about it in short order.

 

 

I want to avoid, at all costs, the appearance that I would ever be using my friendships with them to influence a situation for personal reasons.

 

 

Umm, why? If you have the ear of the pastor ( you're friends ) then how is that "wrong" to speak with a friend about what is happening to you? It's the pastor's job to guide the flock, bro. If there are problems in the church ( and there ALWAYS are ), then the ministerial staff has the responsibility to have a system in place for dealing with that. Don't you have more than one pastor? Most modern churches today have a pastorial staff for shepherding the flock.

 

 

Other than that, I am still praying and thinking about how to handle it. Not a clue so far.

 

 

Bro, you do have a clue. Many guys here have given you many. And I am glad to hear there are so many believers on this forum. So you have gotten clues from fellow believers. Could that not have been part of the plan? Are we not to advise our brothers in Godly ways? So, that said, the biblical, moral and mature way to handle this is first, to make an appt. with the MD to calmly discuss this. It should be just you and him. You should be prepared to articulate your thoughts and feelings without judging him or condemning him. Then listen to what he has to say. If, after that, you're not satisfied with what he said, and believe he is in the wrong somehow, you are to take some others from the body with you to discuss the matter again. If after this, there is no resolution, then the MD is to be brought before the elders to explain his actions.

 

This is how conflict resolution is supposed to be done it the church. Read:

Matt. 18: 15-17

There are others but this one is sufficient

[BlueStrat]

WOW, lots of territory to cover here. Preface, I was an integral part of one worship band for ten yrs. and also filled in as an alternate for another worship band. I know what it is supposed to be like. First, what's SO GREAT about this particular worship band that a ringer needs to be brought in at "special events". Doesn't the band sound good enough not to do this? I mean, really, who cares that the guitar slinger from outa town is a hot shot? How does that make the worship band so much better to listen too? And again, why couldn't you BOTH play, with you on rhythm and him on the leads. Or alternate, he takes some songs and you get others. Why no one has considered this is beyond me. I do not understand a MD who would do such a thing. I get how the "look at me" attitude is completely inappropriate in a worship context. And I get how soloing, generally, is not done very much in most corporate worship music I have performed in the past. So I can see how it would be extremely distracting, to the point of annoying. So I have zero idea why your MD wants this. Isn't he held accountable by others? What does the congregation have to say about this? In my church, had something like this taken place, all the people in charge would have heard about it in short order. Umm, why? If you have the ear of the pastor ( you're friends ) then how is that "wrong" to speak with a friend about what is happening to you? It's the pastor's job to guide the flock, bro. If there are problems in the church ( and there ALWAYS are ), then the ministerial staff has the responsibility to have a system in place for dealing with that. Don't you have more than one pastor? Most modern churches today have a pastorial staff for shepherding the flock. Bro, you do have a clue. Many guys here have given you many. And I am glad to hear there are so many believers on this forum. So you have gotten clues from fellow believers. Could that not have been part of the plan? Are we not to advise our brothers in Godly ways? So, that said, the biblical, moral and mature way to handle this is first, to make an appt. with the MD to calmly discuss this. It should be just you and him. You should be prepared to articulate your thoughts and feelings without judging him or condemning him. Then listen to what he has to say. If, after that, you're not satisfied with what he said, and believe he is in the wrong somehow, you are to take some others from the body with you to discuss the matter again. If after this, there is no resolution, then the MD is to be brought before the elders to explain his actions. This is how conflict resolution is supposed to be done it the church. Read: Matt. 18: 15-17 There are others but this one is sufficient

Wisdom all around.

[boxorox]

OK. You just want to know if you have a right to be ticked off. Yes.

If you want a resolution, that's up to you. You have to take control of your life and talk to the man. He may be completely oblivius to the fact that this is injurious to your spirit. If one of the complexities you have not shared with us is that he is a close family member, he may be double blind, assuming you are still cadet status and that you agree with his decisions. All the more reason to have the talk.

Brother, we all know you're hurting, and I hope you can resolve this.

Now, in the sake of speaking what's in my heart, I may be a little crude here. If the MD volunteered my equipment without my consent for the use of someone I didn't know, it would get my Irish up. To me, that's like saying "There's a guest speaker here this week. He'll be bunking down with your wife. Hit the road."

The spiritual benefit of suffering is much akin to that of charity. It depends on what is in your heart. Given freely, it is a benefit. If there are other motives, even that of making yourself pleasing to God, it is a selfish act, and will go unrewarded. Do what you think is best, I wish you peace.

[Preacher Will]

If the Minister of Music in my church did this in one of my bands we'd have a new Minister of Music.

[pjrake]

don't let them mistake your kindness for weakness.

 

speak to the band leader now, and speak your mind.

 

-PJ

[musicchic]

Why dont you ask your band leader what Jesus would do? Just kidding.

I dont think its fair at all. You should be able to at the very least play some of the bigger events.

[Janx]

I think kmart has a point.

The point of friends and connections and influence is to broaden your reach and resources. As long as you don't misuse or abuse them, having them and not using what you have is a wasteful thing.

Something else to consider, just as playing for the attention in a worship gig can be wrong, bemoaning that you wanted to play the big gigs is a similar thing. Be prepared for the MD to pull that kind of thinking out, that "the big gig isn't about you, and you should be willing to do whats best for the gig." Bear in mind, that when somebody says, "You're being selfish..." that it is usually tied to a conversation about how they're not getting what they want.

Either talk to the MD, or his boss, presumably the MD first, or get off the pot.

Tell him that when you get subbed out, you feel left out of important events, and that you see no evidence that you are not up to the task.

[goosefartfan]

I've been globetrotting recently and have been away from H-C for a few days. Thanks for the reply about your attitude on the point of music in a worship setting, we agree! Too bad the MD doesn't, and as the bard said, there's the rub.

 

Like the last post, said, don't expect a lot from the MD. If he's the kind of guy that pulls that kind of horse manure on you, I don't see the point meeting with him. I still stick to the going over the MD's head.

 

I hope you'll act on the great advice you've been getting.

 

But, like everyone else, wishing you the best, and let us know about WHAT YOU DID!! (and letting us know what they said, hint, hint...)

[3shiftgtr]

If the Minister of Music in my church did this in one of my bands we'd have a new Minister of Music.

 

 

...and there you have it. thread over. THE post of the thread. Says it all.

[Wolfgang2049]

Ignore the meetings, questions, whatever. Time to quit. This is what will ultimately happen. Why bother with the rest of the stuff?

[vanlatte]

Now, in the sake of speaking what's in my heart, I may be a little crude here. If the MD volunteered my equipment without my consent for the use of someone I didn't know, it would get my Irish up. To me, that's like saying "There's a guest speaker here this week. He'll be bunking down with your wife. Hit the road."

Great analogy

[theAntihero]

Suffering to hide Jews from Nazis, for instance, is a good reason to suffer. Suffering to not make waves in the OPs situation, not so much.

 

 

Im theAntihero and i approve of this message.

 

So now not only are you being replaced but now are required to let them use your gear? Im sure there is layers of complexity that you are not sharing, but these layers are just clouding you to the real issues. No musician or frankly human being, puts up with this stuff without at the very least defending yourself.

 

Also ive never played in this sort of situation but is there a reason why you have to be replaced with someone else? Is there some sort of church mandate that thou must only have x amount of muscians on stage? Cant he just play with you guys instead?

[lespaul1964]

Wow. Have been away for a while, I

[Preacher Will]

Something else to consider, just as playing for the attention in a worship gig can be wrong, bemoaning that you wanted to play the big gigs is a similar thing. Be prepared for the MD to pull that kind of thinking out, that "the big gig isn't about you, and you should be willing to do whats best for the gig." Bear in mind, that when somebody says, "You're being selfish..." that it is usually tied to a conversation about how they're not getting what they want. Either talk to the MD, or his boss, presumably the MD first, or get off the pot. Tell him that when you get subbed out, you feel left out of important events , and that you see no evidence that you are not up to the task.

 

 

Herein lies the fallacy. The worship event is the big event. When you are qualified to play for the King of kings, you are qualified to play for anybody. If the MD doesn't get that, he/she is in the wrong line of work.

[BlueStrat]

 

Herein lies the fallacy. The worship event is the big event. When you are qualified to play for the King of kings, you are qualified to play for anybody. If the MD doesn't get that, he/she is in the wrong line of work.

 

 

 

 

With all due, respect, that's just not so. The guy that can bang out 4 chords to lead 3 worship songs for a bible study isn't automatically qualified to play on a worship team, and a guy qualified to play on a worship team for a Sunday morning church service isn't necessarily qualified to play on a worship team for a conference or street ministry, etc. Each requires a different skill level as the representation to the world becomes greater.

 

I don't believe in using ringers, but I don't believe your point is a valid one, either.

A good music director would be mentoring and working with his team members to help them become more skilled and better trained. Leadership is always, always about people first, and the goals and objectives may be important, but they are first and foremost a means to help people grow and develop, and not an end in themselves. But that doesn't mean you sacrifice quality to make someone feel better. If the MD thinks the op isn't up to snuff, he should tell him why and what he needs to work on to be part of the big events. And the OP should be insisting that he be told. Since none of us are there to see and hear what's going on, that's the best advice I can give at this point.

 

Calls for the MD to be replaced or the OP to quit are premature, since the situation is being described by only the aggrieved party. As a former MD myself, (and no offense to the OP), I have experienced my share of people who weren't up to the task of being on a worship team, and people who were but weren't up to the task of a larger event, people who needed more practice at the level they were at, but who honestly didn't see why they weren't there yet even when I explained it to them. For all I know, this could be going on at the OPs church.

 

As far as the OP's MD not having great skills: that what leaders do-they manage people and get the people with the best skills to accomplish the mission. I always looked for people better than myself.

[tele-vangelist]

A good music director would be mentoring and working with his team members to help them become more skilled and better trained. Leadership is always, always about people first, and the goals and objectives may be important, but they are first and foremost a means to help people grow and develop, and not an end in themselves ...

 

 

IMHO, the single best post on this subject yet!

[JDRock]

...network, and find a singer better than he is and "sub" him at bigger events....im sure he wont mind...

[rhat]

I still think this whole thing boils down the the reality at hand. you have a MD thats pulling in ringers and cutting you out and you have a guy who is above him in control that is letting the md do it. The OP is the odd man out. I dont think you can talk , debate or discuss your way out of he situation. Its working for the ones in control it seems ,, and not working for the OP. So I would just slip slide away into a better situation for the OP.

No matter what you say ,,, if the powers who control things are happy ,, you wont change them. They will put it in the OPs lap that he needs to except it and if he doesnt its his problem.

You cant win at church politics.....they are what they are.

[MrKnobs]

I was in a band once where it was seriously suggested (nothing being smoked) that "anytime we find someone better at any position, we replace that person, and eventually we'll have a reallly kickass band!"

 

 

Yes, a kickass band with none of us in it.

 

There is NO band where anyone can't be replaced by a better player. That's not the point of a band, especially not a church band.

 

Where did the "worship" part go?

 

Your bandleader clearly has the wrong perspective. Tell him so.

 

Terry D.

[P. Wallace]

 

I would just say that you're fine with adding an additional guitarist for the bigger events, but you'd still like to be part of it and that you're willing to augment your playing to make room for the 2nd guitar. I wouldn't be confrontational about it.

 

 

This. I'm in a similar situation right now (only with vocals) and this is the road I took.

[rhat]

I was in a band once where it was seriously suggested (nothing being smoked) that "anytime we find someone better at any position, we replace that person, and eventually we'll have a reallly kickass band!" Yes, a kickass band with none of us in it. There is NO band where anyone can't be replaced by a better player. That's not the point of a band, especially not a church band. Where did the "worship" part go? Your bandleader clearly has the wrong perspective. Tell him so. Terry D.

And he says " i am sorry you feel that way" ,, and the road goes on for ever and the party never ends...

[Preacher Will]

A good music director would be mentoring and working with his team members to help them become more skilled and better trained. Leadership is always, always about people first, and the goals and objectives may be important, but they are first and foremost a means to help people grow and develop, and not an end in themselves. But that doesn't mean you sacrifice quality to make someone feel better. If the MD thinks the op isn't up to snuff, he should tell him why and what he needs to work on to be part of the big events.

 

 

Everyone is always growing and developing, regardless of current skill level. But, if the OP's skill level is such that it detracts from the band's ability to deliver, it is going to detract whether they are in their church or on the road. If that is the case, then why is the OP in the band in the first place? He/she should be in a band a step down until he/she's developed the chops to justify playing at a more mature level.

 

And here is my issue of what constitutes the "big event." For a church worship band, a "house band," not some free-lance pro touring group, the big event is Sunday morning. Outside gigs are nice, but a church worship band exists to lead the people of God in worship. That is their calling, their raison d'etre. If they are just "using" the church as a place to park while they seek out a recording contract, there is something wrong in their orientation and attitude. If they are playing out to represent the worship of the church, isn't putting in "ringers" to improve the sound essentially duplicitous? I've actually had the situation the OP represents. The MD wanted to become a recording star. This individual was using the church to further his own ends, not the worship of God. His attitude caused dissension and distrust, it cost us credibility and the commitment of valuable people. I hastened his departure. I would do it again.

[BlueStrat]

 

But, then why ask the guy who can only bang out four chords and play three songs to lead a conference?

 

 

I don't think this is the case. In fact, I'd be that it isn't.

 

 

The underlying assumption is that the band, and the individuals who comprise the band, already have something worth delivering to the audience they are being booked for. If they couldn't cut it with their regular line up, why book them in the first place?

 

 

I don't t know that this is what's happening. Do you? We are getting one side of a story, one perspective of someone who is not happy. If you've been in a church any length of time, you know that Christians are no different than anyone else in having erroneous, biased or misunderstood perceptions. I'm not saying the OP is presenting a skewed view, I'm saying that we are only getting one side of the story. For all I know, the worship leader could have been asked to put a worship band together for the event(s). I've played a few events with worship teams members from different groups. I think you are jumping to conclusions about the worship leader that aren't fair or warranted based on the limited amount of information being presented. There is always another side to the story and I have a feeling we aren't getting it. Which is why I said (and I'll say it again, for the third time) until the OP takes it to the worship leader one on one and asks for an explanation, everything else is just conjecture, speculation, and frankly, borders on gossip.

 

 

If they are just "using" the church as a place to park while they seek out a recording contract, there is something wrong in their orientation and attitude.

 

 

Well, of course. But what does any of that have to do with the thread at hand?

 

 

If they are playing out to represent the worship of the church, isn't putting in "ringers" to improve the sound essentially duplicitous?

 

 

If they're playing worship to represent their church at all, it's a wrong motive, IMO.

 

I think you're reading way too much into this and ascribing motives to the worship leader for which you have no justification in doing. It's a bit like making a false accusation. I haven't even seen the OP making the implications you seem to be.

 

Just sayin'.

[rhat]

The worship band has the same issues as other bands in my opinon. It attracts musicans and all the issues that go along with them. My cousin plays bass for one. he has changed churches just like guys change bands.

He is a good guy and and very solid with his faith... but over the years he has been into this worship band thing ,,,, I see it just as a band situation.

He may see it different ,, but I know better. Music has alot of ego ,,, mix it with the church and it wont go away. He is a solid musican,, his ego is in check ,, but like I say its still a band situation and the guys are up there to play. My grandfather was a preacher ,,, My dad pretty well stayed away from the church thing ,,, he grew up in one. church politics are just like any other kind of politics. The only reason why I can play an instrument is that my grandfather made every one of his kids learn to play music ,,all his kids followed the traditon. I was the the black sheep that got in a rock band at 15

God bless my dad ,,, he was cool with that.