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Opinions--I get subbed for at every big event


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Kmart: If his playing is good enough to play Sunday morning, his playing is good enough for all the other shows PERIOD.


As a non-church goer, I just cannot condone accepting such treatment from someone. I despise confrontation, I despise selfishness and pride...but what I despise more is
injustice
. To me, this is an injustice - it is the abuse of authority, an abuse this 'leader' performs because he feels his victim is too afraid to say "NO".


However, out of respect for the faith of others, I will stay out of posting in this thread from here out or I'm gonna drive myself nuts and/or really start to offend people. To the OP, whatever happens - I truly hope that this situation is resolved in a manner that you can feel good about. Good luck to you sir.

 

 

I don't see why you'd bow out. I'm not religious any more, but when I played in church, it was exactly like you said here.

 

I played clarinet and flute in church and I was a good player. If the ensemble that I played with every week at mass was going to do something "extra", I'd get to play. If a ten piece of professionals were hired to accompany a concert associated with the church, and one of them was a clarinet player, that was a different situation, and I had no expectation to play. Even if another member of my ensemble was hired into the orchestra, or accompanied them.

 

I honestly have a hard time even seeing how this went down with the OP. People are advising him to have a sit down with the leader...but I kind of agree with rhat. Some kind of conversation must have already happened, or the OP would not even know he wasn't supposed to show up at these events. If I were to sitdown with anyone, it would be the pastor, to tell him exactly why I was quitting.

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...but I kind of agree with rhat. Some kind of conversation must have already happened, or the OP would not even know he wasn't supposed to show up at these events. If I were to sitdown with anyone, it would be the pastor, to tell him exactly why I was quitting.

 

 

Yeah, if a conversation about his issues has already happened, then that changes everything. I don't think it has.

 

If it has, and the OP understands what is up and the team leader understands what is up, then it is just a matter of the OP deciding what he wants to do.

 

My guess, and it is a guess, is that he was told he wouldn't be needed, and he just said o.k. Maybe it blindsided him, or maybe it raised him a bit and he did not want to say anything cuz he didn't want to speak before he thought it through....I've been there...you?

 

But I think that nudging up to the pastor and quitting is a bit petulant, IMO. Wouldn't serve any purpose other than to submit your complaint. Which you've already said is a waste.

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Yeah, if a conversation about his issues has already happened, then that changes everything. I don't think it has.


If it has, and the OP understands what is up and the team leader understands what is up, then it is just a matter of the OP deciding what he wants to do.


My guess, and it is a guess, is that he was told he wouldn't be needed, and he just said o.k. Maybe it blindsided him, or maybe it raised him a bit and he did not want to say anything cuz he didn't want to speak before he thought it through....I've been there...you?


But I think that nudging up to the pastor and quitting is a bit petulant, IMO. Wouldn't serve any purpose other than to submit your complaint. Which you've already said is a waste.

 

 

No explicit conversation has ever occurred. At Christmas, it was a total blindside. I was under the understanding that the particular event did not require an electric guitar, and then lo and behold, I get a text from the guy who was being brought in (a different guy than this past weekend) wanting to "confirm" that he could use my gear for the event.:eek:

 

As for the event this past weekend, last year I was out of town for the event. The same guy came and filled in for me because I could not attend.

 

This year, several weeks ago, the leader says to me, "we are going to have [this guy] come back and do the weekend again, since, uh, well, uh, since he played with us last year that way we will have the same group together."

 

Yeah, that would make some sense, except that the rest of the band is EXACTLY THE SAME as plays together every week. So the leader was using the lame-brain excuse that it made more sense to have a guy who played with them one time a year ago come in, because it would be smoother than having the band that plays together TWO TIMES A WEEK EVERY WEEK play the event.:rolleyes:

 

--Then, to boot, he says, "Well, and while he's in town, we will have him fill in for you on Sunday morning too."

 

I think that ticked me off more than anything. Not just being replaced for the event, but being given a lame, obviously false reason. Of course he didn't fill in for me because he played with them one time a year ago.

 

The obviously false excuse is part of what makes me doubt the leader's motives.

 

And like 3shiftgtr said, I have not yet said anything because I really wanted to think this through first, make sure my motives were right, make sure I wasn't in the wrong for being offended, etc. it would be real easy just to sound like a whiny baby in having that conversation, and if I'm going to have it, I want to make sure I do it with integrity.

 

That's my dilemma. The leader is a bit of a hard head. The conversation will likely go nowhere. And I don't want to alienate anyone; whatever happens, it has been my church for 30 years (and the church my father in law pastored)--I'm not going to leave the church over this, and I would rather quit the band than cause division.

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kmart... first of all we are taking the OP at his word that he isn't terrible, but he's just not a flashy player and neither are the other guys in the band that are NOT being subbed for. Apparently he is good enough to be in the band in the first place, so it's pretty easy to take him at his word.


Second, a church situation is not a business. Loyalty and teamwork IS a big part of the equation in that situation. That doesn't mean you put up with somebody who stinks, but it does mean that you don't recruit people outside the church for big events just because they're a flashier or better known player.

 

 

I should have clarified: I wasn't trying to comment on OP's talent level as a player. More just sidebar commentary that I was seeing completely contradictory concepts regarding 'what's required for a given situation', I guess.

 

In regards to putting up with someone who stinks, that's exactly what the post I replied to indicated the OP wanted to aspire to, based on the description of his father-in-law's example.

 

Anyway, I was just responding based on that. If that's how he chooses to live his life, cool for him, but I'd never be able to invest in his business or play in a band with him, because I couldn't understand how someone could operate like that, much less try to do so myself...

 

Feel free to ignore.

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I get a text from the guy who was being brought in wanting to "confirm" that he could use my gear for the event.
:eek:

 

I said I wouldn't post again. I know I promised. I said I would stay out of this...

 

 

 

 

AGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

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But I think that nudging up to the pastor and quitting is a bit petulant, IMO. Wouldn't serve any purpose other than to submit your complaint. Which you've already said is a waste.

 

 

In these situations, the MD is a hired gun (and possible member of the church) and the performers are volunteer members of the church. Call it a performance review from an interested party.

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Sorry, but based on the above, especially if...

...THIS is true:

 

At Christmas, it was a total blindside. I was under the understanding that the particular event did not require an electric guitar,
and then lo and behold, I get a text from the guy who was being brought in wanting to "confirm" that he could use my gear for the event

 

 

AND this is still true:

 

No explicit conversation has ever occurred.

 

 

I can't see this any other way: you're allowing yourself to be walked all over, and frankly, enabling the abuse yourself.

 

Your lack of action is showing that you are ok with/approve the behavior. It's as if you are (passively) asking to be treated in this manner.

 

If you can't see that clearly already, I don't know what anybody could say to help you solve the problem.

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I can't see this any other way: you're allowing yourself to be walked all over, and frankly, enabling the abuse yourself.

 

 

OP here: I actually totally agree with you. To this point, I have refrained from saying anything for many reasons--trying to display humility, trying to submit to leadership, not wanting to be accused of having the wrong motives, not wanting to potentially cause division among people I am constantly around.

 

But it has gotten to the point that I can't stand it anymore, even trying to take into consideration humility, submission, etc.

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I'm not seeing that this is an issue where you need to "submit to leadership"

 

This is dis-respectful, deceitful and shameful behavior on the part of the MD.

 

Whether "calling him out" is the right thing to do is another matter entirely, but let's not kid ourselves: this is a real {censored}ty way to treat any band mate.

 

If you do want to deal with it diplomatically, go over his head to church leadership and state your concerns.

 

He has to submit to their leadership, and you may just find that they agree that this behavior is not in keeping with Christ's teachings.

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This is coming back to the universal observation: You don't know what's in his heart until you talk to him. You've done a good job explaining your perspective on band membership, and your disappointment in being excluded. Time to have that coffee.

 

As a musical director, his mission is different than being leader of a secular/for profit band. While excluding you from the fun gigs is insensitive and poor leadership, he may have an acceptible reason. You won't know till you ask.

 

If he fails to remedy the situation to your satisfaction and his justifications sound bogus, you can leave or accept it. If you stay, I would protest at practice the next time it comes up. You work as hard as everyone else, you'd be happy just to be onstage playing back up... A humble and reasonable request may win support in the band. This could open his mind to consider his handling of the situation is wrong.

 

After that, you can quit any time you want to.

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No explicit conversation has ever occurred. At Christmas, it was a total blindside. I was under the understanding that the particular event did not require an electric guitar, and then lo and behold, I get a text from the guy who was being brought in (a different guy than this past weekend) wanting to "confirm" that he could use my gear for the event.
:eek:

 

I'll say it for you Rory, WTF! I do hope you said NO! Your MD outright lied to you, and can not be trusted. I change my previous recommendations, and would recommend you quit ASAP. Remove any gear you have from the church, and find another musical outlet. This is well past unacceptable.

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I'll say it for you Rory, WTF! I do hope you said NO! Your MD outright lied to you, and can not be trusted. I change my previous recommendations, and would recommend you quit ASAP. Remove any gear you have from the church, and find another musical outlet. This is well past unacceptable.

 

And from a christian perspective, if you care about the status of this guy's standing with the Lord, then it becomes imperative to take this straight to Church leadership.

 

It's not about you: it's about correcting a brother who has clearly gone astray.

 

The deception and dishonesty are just not acceptable in any context, and in a church context much less so.

 

Quit the band, but follow through on this - it's the right thing to do as a Christian: you may save others from having to deal with this garbage, and you may bring about a change of heart and behavior from the MD.

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OP here: I actually totally agree with you. To this point, I have refrained from saying anything for many reasons--trying to display humility, trying to submit to leadership, not wanting to be accused of having the wrong motives, not wanting to potentially cause division among people I am constantly around.

 

 

Based on the scenarios you've laid out, a response/query to the MD in no way, shape or form would indicate that you are not humble, willing to follow appropriate leadership (Why must it be 'submit'?), having ulterior/wrong motives or divisive intent. It would just show that you recognize something that's wrong and want to be informed about it.

 

In any case, by my reckoning, you ran out of 'other cheeks' to turn quite a while ago.

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In any case, by my reckoning, you ran out of 'other cheeks' to turn quite a while ago.

 

And that scenario can be applied wrongly as well.

 

If "turning the other cheek" results in a christian brother going further astray, then you have in effect put your personal wants and needs above his.

 

Shine a light on the darkness.

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HEY BROS

 

I'm with Brory. I'm not Christian, but I'm also not a particularly violent guy.

 

Nevertheless, there are at least two points in the OP's story where someone would have been introduced to the business end of my Explorer.

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--Then, to boot, he says, "Well, and while he's in town, we will have him fill in for you on Sunday morning too."


That's my dilemma. The leader is a bit of a hard head. The conversation will likely go nowhere. And I don't want to alienate anyone; whatever happens, it has been my church for 30 years (and the church my father in law pastored)--I'm not going to leave the church over this, and I would rather quit the band than cause division.

 

 

Dude, gotta tell him your reaction to his actions. Gotta do it. No matter the outcome, because he needs to know that he has dropped one on you. Just talk to him and tell him that you feel disrespected. Period. No anger or emotion, just let him know what's up. Y'all are brothers in Christ and you work together for a common good. You just need to make him aware.

 

You've been serving and doing what is asked of you, and you feel disrespected. Ask him if he did not think that by constantly doing this to you, that it wouldn't take a toll? Find a spot where the both of you are o.k. with your level of involvement. Even if that means "I'm out. Call me when you need me. And if it works for me, I'll consider it." Since you are mostly a rhythm player anyway, why wouldn't he want the other guy IN ADDITION to you?

 

Talk to him bro...ya gotta do it. You need to let your brother know that what he did to you was wrong...I think you'll be surprised at the outcome...

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No explicit conversation has ever occurred. At Christmas, it was a total blindside. I was under the understanding that the particular event did not require an electric guitar, and then lo and behold, I get a text from the guy who was being brought in (a different guy than this past weekend) wanting to "confirm" that he could use my gear for the event.
:eek:

 

OK... that is completely out of line. Completely.

 

The guy is lying and being totally passive aggressive and needs to be told what's what.

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If "turning the other cheek" results in a christian brother going further astray, then you have in effect put your personal wants and needs above his.


Shine a light on the darkness.

 

:thu:

 

Yep. We have an obligation to speak up when we see wrongs being done. That is for the good of the other person and the good of the church.

 

I'm not Christian, but I've done plenty of volunteer work alongside devout Christians, and even I know that.

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HEY BROS


I'm with Brory. I'm not Christian, but I'm also not a particularly violent guy.


Nevertheless, there are at least two points in the OP's story where someone would have been introduced to the business end of my Explorer.

 

 

What would Rip Glitter do?

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In summary this is all pretty simple to me ...

 

The church has an established "team" that performs music at its regular services.

 

For some reason, the MD decides that you're not a part of the team for special events.

 

It's clearly not right, especially since the outsider is truly an outsider and not a part of the church. That takes it over the top.

 

That's not how these things are supposed to work.

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By the way, it would be nice if you can post some of your work with the group to get independent truthful input on your playing.

 

 

I don't care if he sounds like BucketHead shredding on a piece of barbed wire with a broken arm.

 

How the MD is handling and continues to handle this situation is wrong, and he needs to be called out for it.

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