Opinions--I get subbed for at every big event

[lespaul1964]

Well, that

[stratotastic]

I don't really have anything to add that hasn't already been said other than to just give another vote that you need to get out of that band. Go in, pick up your gear, tell them you're done, and go find a band that is a better fit for you.

 

Best of luck.

[boynamedsuse]

No explicit conversation has ever occurred. At Christmas, it was a total blindside. I was under the understanding that the particular event did not require an electric guitar, and then lo and behold, I get a text from the guy who was being brought in (a different guy than this past weekend) wanting to "confirm" that he could use my gear for the event.

Use your personal gear? If this guy's so hot, he can bring his own gear. Christians are not doormats. Polite and respectful, yes. Doormats and victims, no.

 

One thing that hasn't been confirmed is the Christian affiliation of the "guest" guitarists. Are they well-known Christian players, or are they secular musicians?

1. If they are at least reasonably well-known to the Christian community, it makes sense to use their popularity and their known and demonstrated faith to help the church. This is the only mitigating factor I can currently imagine that would make what I read here acceptable.

2. If they are secular musicians, using them to replace a dedicated Christian in a Christian band makes no sense at all. I suppose you could even argue that such behavior is a violation of 2 Corinthians 6:14

 

PS: For those of you who are not "churchy," #1 is OK and #2 is the clue to leave the band, if not the church.

[Ender_rpm]

 

I don't really have anything to add that hasn't already been said other than to just give another vote that you need to get out of that band. Go in, pick up your gear, tell them you're done, and go find a band that is a better fit for you. Best of luck.

 

 

I've been in worship bands too, and the dynamic is not as you describe it. First comes the commitment to the faith, THEN to the organization as a place of worship and fellowship, and only after that the dedication to serve. It's not as simple as finding another band, the OP has been attending this church for a long time, and has other friends, his spouse has friends, kids have friends, maybe he enjoys the pastor, etc. You just don't pick up and leave in this kind of situation.

 

That being said, the way teh OP is being treated is just plain wrong, and needs to be addressed, directly.

[rhat]

 

I've been in worship bands too, and the dynamic is not as you describe it. First comes the commitment to the faith, THEN to the organization as a place of worship and fellowship, and only after that the dedication to serve. It's not as simple as finding another band, the OP has been attending this church for a long time, and has other friends, his spouse has friends, kids have friends, maybe he enjoys the pastor, etc. You just don't pick up and leave in this kind of situation. That being said, the way teh OP is being treated is just plain wrong, and needs to be addressed, directly.

 

 

 

No reason to stop going to the church ,, just dont take your guitar. You can give of yourself in another way. get involved in another part of the activities.. softball with the kids ,, youth trips,,commnity service.

[vanlatte]

 

I've been in worship bands too, and the dynamic is not as you describe it. First comes the commitment to the faith, THEN to the organization as a place of worship and fellowship, and only after that the dedication to serve.

 

 

I was on the opposite end of what is being described here, letting people on stage that had no business performing because "their heart is in the right place".

 

There should be a happy medium here somewhere....

[tele-vangelist]

 

I suppose you could even argue that such behavior is a violation of 2 Corinthians 6:14

 

 

Sig worthy?

[Ender_rpm]

I was on the opposite end of what is being described here, letting people on stage that had no business performing because "their heart is in the right place". There should be a happy medium here somewhere....

 

I've been there too. One woman who sang out of key on purpose because she "liked the dissonance".

[rorylawford]

I've been there too. One woman who sang out of key on purpose because she "liked the dissonance".

 

I had a drummer many many years ago who would sing his harmonies intentionally sharp "...because the guitar player is singing flat - that way it will balance out..."

[Remedy]

-you're being walked all over OP (kicking you out, then using your gear) WAKE UP mate! Its almost laughable if it wasnt so sad

 

-I hate you're band for not sticking up for you

 

-the pastor or whatever he is is a pure dickhead

 

-I bet you will not do a single thing about it

 

Its simple. You have to voice your opinion to the pastor That is the first step. See what happens. ask him how he would feel if he was replaced

 

Why did you not say something? to your bandmates?

[Gorgon90]

I'm agnostic so apologies in advance if this causes any offence as it is not intended, religiously or otherwise.

 

From reading the OP's post about the text he received from the replacement (not sub) about using his gear something struck me.

 

I do not recall from studying the Bible at school, anywhere in that book that stated that it was correct to accept being abused to satisfy someone's else vision of how to worship God.

 

It is abuse on the part of the MD who surely is not behaving towards the OP in a manner consistent with Christian principles to tell the replacement he can use the OP's gear without even asking him. This and the previous treatment of the OP in terms of replacing him at bigger events to my mind seems to have completely ignored the concept of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

 

I have had my eyes opened to how worship bands work in the US by this thread and it obviously is about WORSHIP rather than the band in most cases. If this was a pure BAND situation with no religious aspects then the singer should be pulled up for being severely out of line and if the other band members weren't on board with that I'd jump ship immediately and warn them they'd be next when the singer can get a better player in that role than them.

 

To the OP; Good luck in resolving this.

[MartinC]

You are being treated unfairly. I think you should tell the wanker, uh, I mean leader, that you are putting in the effort to play as well as you can,you show up, and are dedicated to the band, that you are the guitar player, and need to play all the gigs, not just the small ones, or your gone right now. See, it only takes one sentence:thu:

[rhat]

 

You are being treated unfairly. I think you should tell the wanker, uh, I mean leader, that you are putting in the effort to play as well as you can,you show up, and are dedicated to the band, that you are the guitar player, and need to play all the gigs, not just the small ones, or your gone right now. See, it only takes one sentence:thu:

 

 

 

I have been following this deal ,,, the common thing that I see keep popping up is that everyone seem to think that the OP needs to basically tell this MD off ,, Somehow i just think just saying that you are leaving the worship band is really all he needs to say. I cant see anything positive about poking his thumb in the guys eye on the way out the door. Its taking alot of my time ,and, i would like to work on some other things with my music ,, i dont feel like i am leaving you in the lurch, and this is somthing that I have thought over alot ,and my mind is made up to drop out.... Then just bail. Its clean , its quick and its not going to give the guy any ammo to defend himself with. Let him hold his whole load of crap ,,, shake hands and say its been great working with you and I enjoyed it ,, but i want to take a break and move on.

 

Going out humble and calm really pisses these ass hats off. stick that knife in them nice and smooth with a smile on your face. It goes in deeper that way lol. Then they get to explain why he turned over the guitar player.

[rorylawford]

I keep fighting to resist suggesting that this sorry excuse for a 'worship leader' needs an a**-kicking of biblical proportions (something this side of Samuel L. Jackson's "Ezekial 25:17)...

 

So instead, at the very least he needs to be told (ok ok ok, in a polite and respectful way) "NO, you cannot treat people this way". Rhat: the OP just walking away, and making up some feeble and dishonest excuse why, is not only admitting defeat but tacitly telling this 'leader' that his actions are condoned AND effective. This cannot stand.

 

I realize the majority of those participating in this thread (except for myself and my Bro AwayEam) are against the severe beating this person truly deserves. Hats off to you all for maintaining Christian forgiveness - myself I really think the OP needs to stop acting like Alexander Gudonov in "Witness, and instead act more like Alexander Gudonov in "Die Hard"...

 

Ok, I'm pushing it, but really as someone else said above, being a Christian does NOT mean being a doormat for people to walk all over.

 

Urge to rant....rising, rising...RISING

 

:arg:

 

And this has nothing to do with with who is a better player - either the OP is IN the band or he's NOT. That's it, end of story. Musical Director is a lying, manipulative abuser of authority and capitulating to this sack of excrement does not glorify or serve any higher power - it only serves the musical director. It's these types of abuses - often at almost every conceivable level above and below - that drive so many people to abandon churches. Hypocrisy and lust for power and control all wrapped up and masked behind a smile and a few carefully selected verses of scripture chosen specifically to play on a person's guilt, fear and self-doubt.

 

ARRRRGH the more I think about this, the more I want to punch this MD square in the face - and I abhor violence. AHHHHHHHHHHHH

[rorylawford]

sorry - I know I promised to stay out of this thread...

I am in for it now

[sfarfsky]

 

 

Get in/form a cover band. You can get paid and when you work late Saturday night you can skip church on Sunday. Its a win/win

[rhat]

 

I keep fighting to resist suggesting that this sorry excuse for a 'worship leader' needs an a**-kicking of biblical proportions (something this side of Samuel L. Jackson's "Ezekial 25:17)... So instead, at the very least he needs to be told (ok ok ok, in a polite and respectful way) "NO, you cannot treat people this way". Rhat: the OP just walking away, and making up some feeble and dishonest excuse why, is not only admitting defeat but tacitly telling this 'leader' that his actions are condoned AND effective. This cannot stand. I realize the majority of those participating in this thread (except for myself and my Bro AwayEam) are against the severe beating this person truly deserves. Hats off to you all for maintaining Christian forgiveness - myself I really think the OP needs to stop acting like Alexander Gudonov in "Witness, and instead act more like Alexander Gudonov in "Die Hard"... Ok, I'm pushing it, but really as someone else said above, being a Christian does NOT mean being a doormat for people to walk all over. Urge to rant....rising, rising...RISING :arg: And this has nothing to do with with who is a better player - either the OP is IN the band or he's NOT. That's it, end of story. Musical Director is a lying, manipulative abuser of authority and capitulating to this sack of excrement does not glorify or serve any higher power - it only serves the musical director. It's these types of abuses - often at almost every conceivable level above and below - that drive so many people to abandon churches. Hypocrisy and lust for power and control all wrapped up and masked behind a smile and a few carefully selected verses of scripture chosen specifically to play on a person's guilt, fear and self-doubt. ARRRRGH the more I think about this, the more I want to punch this MD square in the face - and I abhor violence. AHHHHHHHHHHHH

 

 

 

It might seem that way to you ,, but when do you it the way I suggested it really eats on them way more than going out in a blaze. this guy will have to live with the fact that he screwed over a really good guy. when you make it an issue ,, its so easy for them to shift the blame to you. They really never know how you really feel. thats the beauty in it from my point of view. leave them with something to think about. dont get me wrong , I am not a wimp when it comes to getting in a guys face ,, but sometimes I feel its best to kill them with kindness ,, you are still killing them lol Let mr wonder fingers give this guy the real public dumping. we all know thats going to happen. Those guys wont be loyal. go for the big slow payback that doesnt have your fist mark on it. It keeps you out of petty BS ,,,and it simmers longer lol

[goosefartfan]

dear OP,

Your MD wants to fire you, but doesn't know how. Instead he drops clues all over the place, hoping that you'll pick up the clues, quit, and leave him with a clean conscience. Clearly the wrong way to do things, and his actions are just horrible on a number of levels.

 

Go over his head and complain to the church leaders about how he's handling you. If the MD is alone in wanting to ditch you b/c your years of devotion don't equal a pro musician, they'll straighten him out.

 

BUT, it could be that they also want to can you, but are using him as a hatchet man b/c of your 30 years with the church. You explaining your feelings about the injustice will hopefully prompt the leadership to either be up front with you about your undesireableness on the worship team. Or if they're on your side, to rescue you.

 

I don't see the point of having a chat with the MD. In his eyes, you're toast.

 

It also sounds like the talent pool in your area got better. I'm sorry to say it, but others in your church feel that the worship could be made better by better musicians (if that is possible). If that's true, then everybody on the team, from the MD on down is in trouble, b/c as soon as someone else better shows up, that someone else will get the gig. In a regular band or business model, I have no problem with that attitude. In a church, it's up to the church elders to decide that one.

 

I feel your pain in you having to part with something that you clearly enjoy and gives you pleasure and a feeling of mission.

 

So, to summarize, a) you're probably history; b) your MD needs to learn to relate to people in an honest manner.

 

[plawren53202]

Hey, goosefartfan, thanks for the thoughts, but I think you have missed a couple of important details ...

 

First, the couple of guys who have been brought in for me are from out of town--FAR out of town. So this is definitely not a case where there is any chance that either would replace me permanently (barring a long-distance move). I have no fear whatsoever that I am going to be replaced on a weekly basis. What I do fear, greatly, is that the next time a big/fun event comes along, band leader will again pay to bring someone in from out of town to replace me.

 

Second, whereas all of the regulars in our band are just volunteers, the two guys who have been brought in to fill in are professionals, as in pay for play, studio musician-type players. And, as I had said before, they are FAR above the rest of the band in talent level, most definitely including the band leader.

 

Finally, regarding church leadership, I am quite certain that this is not coming from them. I am quite close to the pastor and others in key leadership positions--so close, in fact, that regarding something like this, I very rarely bring it up to them. I want to avoid, at all costs, the appearance that I would ever be using my friendships with them to influence a situation for personal reasons. For that reason, I would never even think about bringing it up. However, our church is big enough that the pastor has 1000 other bigger things on his plate, and he has no day-to-day involvement with the music ministry other than very general oversight. So he may well have no idea as to why this guy was playing that Sunday and may well have thought I was just out of town that week or something like that.

 

I had a couple of conversations with close confidants about this over the weekend. Received some interesting comments. First, I asked both people for completely neutral assessments of the situation. Both offered me the opinion, though I hadn't requested it, that as far as a comparison of talent goes, I am at least on par with our drummer, better than the bass, and better than our band leader. I trust both people enough to tell me the truth and not just tell me something I want to hear--they have both delivered PLENTY of painful opinions in the past. So again, that's the real irony of the situation--it is NOT a case where the leader is trying to find a guitar player up to his talent level because I don't fit the bill. To the contrary, it was very obvious that the leader was far outclassed, from a talent perspective, when the other guy filled in.

 

Second, I got some interesting feedback from both regarding the weekend youth event the replacement came for, as well as when he took my spot in the Sunday morning service. Both said that the replacement's level and manner of soloing was so over the top that it became a distraction to the worship.

 

For those of you from a traditional band/play for normal gigs setting, this might be a little different. In those settings, the whole "look at me" thing is perfectly acceptable--in some ways, it is the whole reason for playing out.

 

But in the worship context, both of my confidants said that in every case, they were enjoying a good time of worship, focused on the act of worshipping, and then frequently what the replacement would play (either full-on solos, or lead lines thrown into the middle of songs) would be very distracting from the act of worship.

 

Now, you have to understand, what this guy was playing often was not just melodic lead lines mixed in with the guitars (I play that kind of stuff all the time), but full-on, blazing, light speed solos, even throwing in some tapping sometimes. Again, in the usual gig context, go for it--perfectly acceptable, and I would be all for it. But in worship, the end game is not just a raw display of talent, but ultimately the music should point to God rather than the one playing it, and my two confidants both were of the strong opinion that this guy's playing absolutely drew attention to the guy playing it rather than where the attention should be.

 

Leading worship is unique in the music world because there are two required skill sets: (a) the skill set of raw musical ability; and (b) the skill set of understanding the dynamics of a worship service and playing/singing in such a way that you advance, rather than get in the way of, the purpose of worship.

 

All of us who have been in worship services have seen people who have loads of talent in area (a) but not so much in area (b), and their time in a worship service becomes the "look at me" show. This can go for singers, guitar, and anyone up on stage. Now, don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't believe soloing or lead guitar has a place in worship. Far from it; I incorporate some of that regularly. But there is definitely a line somewhere--and I think that with blazing, tapping solos thrown in the middle of songs in which they obviously did not fit, this guy crossed that line, wherever it is.

 

So now that adds to my dilemma. Not only do I not like being replaced in big events, it would also trouble me if our leader really desired to take our worship services in that direction, with raw musical showmanship having a higher priority than the true spirit of worship that ought to be our main focus in such a service. Uggh.

 

So that's the update on the situation for now. Other than that, I am still praying and thinking about how to handle it. Not a clue so far.

[kmart]

"Not a clue so far"??????

 

100% honest truth: YOU ARE F&*KING HOPELESS ON THIS!

 

You've gotten page after page of suggestions and feedback, the vast majority of which is telling you that the thing to do is to either bring it up to the MD or church leadership and ask for some sort of explanation and resolution to the issue, and/or to outright walk away from the music ministry end of things at your particular church.

 

Since that has clearly not sunk in with you for some unfathomable reason, let me put it in a language you may understand better:

 

There will be NO burning bush telling you how to proceed here, nor will the clouds part so a beam of 'god light' can hit you square in the face and in doing so pass a message directly to you from the heavens, so quit waiting for those...

 

If you're going to ask for opinions in your thread title yet are unwilling or incapabale of listening to them...do everyone a favor and don't ask in the first place.

 

Unbelieveable...

[plawren53202]

" Not a clue so far "?????? 100% honest truth: YOU ARE F&*KING HOPELESS ON THIS!

 

Hey dude, seriously, ever hear the saying "until you've walked in a man's shoes..."?

 

Obviously, there's a lot more to this situation than I am sharing publicly, for reasons of anonymity. I have shared some of those details with a couple of posters via PM.

 

Also obviously, if all there was to this situation was what I've shared publicly, I would just quit. If this were a normal band, I would just quit. Pretty simple.

 

The situation is not that simple. By a long shot. Not even as simple as what I've shared on here. By a long shot.

 

I looked at this forum as a valuable way to be able to get some anonymous feedback as to one question--"do I have a right to be ticked off?" I got that feedback, in droves. Many thanks to those who answered.

 

I was not looking for a solution to the problem. Because of the 1000 layers of complexity I haven't shared publicly, no one on here can possibly give me an "answer" to the situation.

 

It seems like your comments are directed at the suggestion that I might be praying through this decision. If you don't come from the same faith background as me, then don't cast judgment, right? Seems like I hear that a lot. I'm not some wacko looking for a "burning bush" or the "parting of the sea," to quote you.

 

What I am looking for is a quiet peace inside about whatever decision I land on. I'm guessing that is what most people, whatever their faith or persuasion, like to arrive at before making a significant life decision. So god forbid that I say, "yeah, I really don't have a strong feeling yet as to the right thing to do here." Given the unshared complexities of the situation, I hardly think having that feeling one week into it makes me !@#$!% clueless.

[cephus]

 

Since that has clearly not sunk in with you for some unfathomable reason, let me put it in a language you may understand better: There will be NO burning bush telling you how to proceed here, nor will the clouds part so a beam of 'god light' can hit you square in the face and in doing so pass a message directly to you from the heavens, so quit waiting for those...

 

 

But this whole situation is very much tied to faith.

 

For one thing, are you selfless enough to put aside your own desire for the "fun gig" because it serves God's purpose better to have some hired gun take your place?

 

Do you have grace for the {censored}ty way that the bandleader is handling things? With the church band, there is no money, so you can have 19 people up there if you want. I would think that adding the other guitar player would be totally acceptable to me, if I were you. However, this guy is excluding you. I think that is wrong. But, God forgives me and you for the million {censored}ty things we do. Aren't you obligated to forgive him?

 

Clearly the answer would be to tell the bandleader guy that it hurts your feelings the way he's handled things. If you're not close enough to him to admit that, maybe you aren't really in the right place for playing at church either.

 

I was playing a good bit in church and seemed to be fairly successful at it. But, I felt like I was dangerously close to at least giving the impression that it was about me instead of about God. Now, I don't front. I sub and play bass or whatever anyone needs and try to be meek about the whole thing. It is much more satisfying to me. If you are being spiritually polluted by this situation, it is far better for you to take a break for a while.

[plawren53202]

 

For one thing, are you selfless enough to put aside your own desire for the "fun gig" because it serves God's purpose better to have some hired gun take your place?

 

 

Just wanted to clarify something--can't remember if I said this earlier in the thread or not. I don't get upset missing the big events solely because they are "fun"--though the human part of anyone would feel that too. What I do miss is that these events usually tend to be longer worship sets, more centered around worship than usual Sunday morning services, and in general, the people in attendance come more focused on the act of worship than a normal Sunday service, where half of them aren't even awake yet.

 

Since the whole point of playing in the band is to contribute to the act of congregational worship, that purpose is only all the more satisfied when the worship is more intense, more focused. Playing those big events is often the closest I will come on earth, as a worship band contributor, to what I believe we will experience in heaven some day. Therefore, I get really bummed missing out on the chance to contribute to those times.

[BlueStrat]

 

Just wanted to clarify something--can't remember if I said this earlier in the thread or not. I don't get upset missing the big events solely because they are "fun"--though the human part of anyone would feel that too. What I do miss is that these events usually tend to be longer worship sets, more centered around worship than usual Sunday morning services, and in general, the people in attendance come more focused on the act of worship than a normal Sunday service, where half of them aren't even awake yet. Since the whole point of playing in the band is to contribute to the act of congregational worship, that purpose is only all the more satisfied when the worship is more intense, more focused. Playing those big events is often the closest I will come on earth, as a worship band contributor, to what I believe we will experience in heaven some day. Therefore, I get really bummed missing out on the chance to contribute to those times.

 

 

I feel for ya and get where you're coming from. But I'll repeat myself: the next step for you is to speak directly to the worship leader. Until that happens, nothing will change for you.

[kmart]

 

I feel for ya and get where you're coming from. But I'll repeat myself: the next step for you is to speak directly to the worship leader. Until that happens, nothing will change for you.

 

This is my point exactly.

 

Nobody here would have any idea of 'additional complexities' unless they were communicated by you, of course (although I don't see how that could be considered an 'obvious' thing that they exist, either), but I still honestly can't see how that could change the truism BlueStrat mentions above.

 

Regardless of any additional concerns, how that may or may not affect your faith, etc., you've shown that you're willing to be walked over and treated in a completely unreasonable way, and actually promote the kind of situation you're in by your unwillingness to discuss with your MD. You may see that as a 'worthy sacrifice'. I see it as unnecessarily making yourself a martyr to no good end.

 

As far as 'walking in another man's shoes': no desire if they are yours. I believe what I believe, you believe what you believe, that's fine.

Part of what I believe is that to allow someone to continue treating me poorly/badly without doing anything about it is categorically wrong, no matter what the potential side-effects may be. I'm on this planet to do, not to suffer, especially not at the hands of others.