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Opinions--I get subbed for at every big event


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It stinks, but you might want to examine your own motives as well. If you're playing on a worship team, you're there to serve.



This^^^^

BUT....:eek:
you have been disrespected. Your humility before God and purpose (to serve) will keep everything in perspective and keep it from being personal. You have been disrespected not by getting subbed for, but by there not being a conversation with you about it. Your efforts deserve that respect, and that needs to be addressed. But keep your ego in check, dude. "Blazing guitar" can be an effective tool in modern musical worship, and if you can't deliver that, then the worship leader has the right to make that call.....

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This^^^^


BUT....
:eek:
you have been disrespected. Your humility before God and purpose (to serve) will keep everything in perspective and keep it from being personal. You have been disrespected not by getting subbed for, but by there not being a conversation with you about it. Your efforts deserve that respect, and that needs to be addressed. But keep your ego in check, dude. "Blazing guitar" can be an effective tool in modern musical worship, and if you can't deliver that, then the worship leader has the right to make that call.....




I dont see it as that big a deal ,,, you will run across all kinds of people who disrespect you. why give them the energy to even waste your time with pinheads like that. You wont change them, you gave of yourself to the praise band ,,, and the MD wont respect you for any kind of conversation you try to have about it. {censored} move on ,, let the guy hang himself. Everyone who has read this thread knows this MD is gonna eat himself sooner or later. He is there for the all the wrong reasons. Let it be,,, and dont lower yourself or the part of your self that you gave to the music in that church. When you have that conversation ,, you are doing the same thing he is. Just my opinon. It will just become about you ,, and not what you did with your music. So you were not the best guitar player ,, thats really not the issue. There will always be another guitar player thats better. Be the guy who can give of himself ,, and take joy in that. its way more rewarding than the being the hot fingers for a guy who really doesnt get it.

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stand up for yourself dammit!


By way of ripping the most BLAZINGEST solo ever shredded next sunday:rawk:

ON EVERY SONG!!!! :rawk::rawk:

If the ':rolleyes:leader' tries to replace you again, I want you to say NO. Turn up to the gig and Ralph Macchio his ASS!! :evil::rawk:Ever seen Crossroads?

Do it.

You have our full backing. :thu:

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I expressed my disgust for this band leader's actions earlier using profanity.. I've edited out the f bombs out of respect for the worship band - but those posts still stand.

 

Being as I am not a church goer or a religious man at all, what I am about to say may offend some - and for that apologize. However...

 

I simply cannot agree with the suggestions that his feeling wronged by this leader's crap should be sublimated; or that he should just take it with humility for the good of the church congregation and the glory of god; or that standing up for himself would be wrong because it makes it all about himself.

 

I personally am sick to death of so-called righteous religious people screwing others over for personal gain and dressing it up in piety designed to guilt their victims into bending over and taking it for fear of being 'un-christian' if they stand up for themselves and say "NO, you are NOT allowed to treat me this way".

 

 

 

End of rant

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OP here, so so many very wise comments guys, I hate to even respond b/c I can't respond to them all...but just to respond to a few points:

--we are NOT compensated. strictly volunteer--which makes playing at big events even more significant, in a way, b/c it is a little "reward", getting to cut loose a little more and have a little fun

--on the topic of what the motivation is for playing: you guys who brought this up were right to do so. That, in fact, is the whole reason I posted this thread. Since this last weekend was only the latest time this has happened, I spent a good deal of time thinking and praying about my feelings on this issue--"am I just being an egocentric baby in taking offense?" "since this is a church worship team, am I just supposed to suck it up and 'take one for the team?'"

Those were the kinds of questions I have been asking myself. My wife says I'm crazy, even in a church context I should be ticked. So thus I posted the question here. The ironic thing is that anyone who knows me would tell you I am extremely humble. The last person who would usually take offense to something.

As someone above suggested, I think part of the problem comes from the transition in music ministry that has taken place. Used to be, a church's music would consist of a choir and orchestra. That setting has a completely different dynamic. Of course, if there are 150 people involved, members are interchangeable to a certain extent.

But now much of church music is band-led. Like many of you, I view a "band" as something different--a team, a group where the parts are NOT interchangeable. With parts so dependent on each other, a band depends on consistency to really have a flow.

And, most importantly, because of the level of inter-dependence in a band, I always thought that LOYALTY was a big part of the band setting. It's not a business. It's a team.

I work in a large company in a highly-competitive industry. Even there, though, I don't feel like I'm constantly looking over my shoulder wondering if they are going to give my job to someone "better" tomorrow. Of course, I have to do an excellent job and meet job expectations. But I don't have to always worry that I will be replaced the next day, as long as I do a good job. Sad to say, that is not the case with our band. Even though I am on par with the rest of the band musically, always dependable, I feel like I am constantly looking over my shoulder. Hard to make the sacrifices required when you feel like that.

Finally, sad to say, I do suspect our "leader's" motives. Not ironically, the "replacements" for me usually tend to have some connections in the music world, and I always wonder in the back of my mind if that is part of the equation.

Also, like some people have said, the leader would crap bricks if our pastor told him he was being replaced for a big event or even a regular Sunday. And not to be mean-spirited, but it could be done. Our leader (like my guitar playing) is very solid, but nothing exceptional. There are many worship leaders out there much better than him, just as there are many guitar players out there who are better than me.

But to me, that is the essence of loyalty--yeah, there are better musicians than any individual member of our band. But the theory is, when the band sticks together and works really hard together, the final result is greater than the sum of the parts--that is, by working together the band accomplishes more than any individual member is capable of. But that model depends on loyalty and sticking together, and when the leader views the band not as a team, but as individual parts, the final product is...just a bunch of individual parts playing together.

Sorry for the long post. You guys have no idea how therapeutic this thread has been.

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I simply
cannot
agree with the suggestions that his feeling wronged by this leader's crap should be sublimated; or that he should just take it with humility for the good of the church congregation and the glory of god; or that standing up for himself would be wrong because it makes it all about himself.


I personally am sick to death of so-called righteous religious people screwing others over for personal gain and dressing it up in piety designed to guilt their victims into bending over and taking it for fear of being 'un-christian' if they stand up for themselves and say "NO, you are NOT allowed to treat me this way".

 

That's how I would respond in the 'flesh', as it's called in church circles. But that's not a Christian perspective, as you yourself admit.

 

You reap what you sow. If this guy leading the team is looking for attaboys and "gee ain't we cool" response from other peolle, well...tha' all the reward he's going to get. But fighting to be recognized and admired among other people and asserting one's rights among brethren causes more grief than it's worth, generally.

 

Everytime I felt shafted by someone in church, I thought about the story of Joseph (Genesis ch 37-45, if you need a reference). And it makes my concerns seem petty. Christians aren't perfect, they succumb to the same things everyone else does, and being recognized and admired by others is a powerful drug.

 

I once led a worship team in a church years ago. Some of the members started gossiping about each other and becoming resentful over who got to play and how much. I finally announced I was putting the entire team behind a curtain and no one was going to be visible to the congregation, including me, and we'd just provide the music so the people could worship God without all the egos emanating from the platform. It was quite funny and quite sad; a few people decided that being on the worship team wasn't such a big deal all of a sudden. Just one simple thing like that revealed the motives of some of the people.

I never did put up a curtain. I didn't have to; those who were there to be looked at and admired quit or I replaced them. The problems stopped, worship was better and life went on.

 

God values talent, to be sure. But he values a contrite spirit and a clean heart above all.

 

End of sermon.

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I cant believe youve gone along with this bull{censored}...the next time this {censored} tells you he is using a sub, quit!!!

Do you talk to other members of the band? What are their thoughts on this??
If I was in a band and the singer was doing this to another member, I would want to know why he/she UNILATERALLY did this...and either we replace someone permanantly or stop subbing out his part...

My gut reaction is these subs wont commit to the band full time, if they did, you would be out for good...sorry, it sucks, and weve all been through it...the writings on the wall...quit this crap situation and since you dont do ripping solos get yourself a new rhythm guitar gig! :)

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i've been on both sides of this fence. and it is different for a worship gig. honestly IMO (and this could totally not be true for your situation). but church worship bands aren't actually bands... don't take this the wrong way, but church bands don't exist for "the band", nor for the musicians. it's a group of people who are coming together to provide something for the church.

 

that being said, i don't think you're out of line to feel sore. i think it's only natural. and though it's not "fair", i don't think you're being treated "unfairly". i think you should just bring up how you feel directly with the music director... part of his job should be nurture all aspects and members of the team.

 

i'm sorry if i made a bunch of wild assumptions and am off base. but i've been replaced, and though it sucked, i understood why. and i've subbed people, and in my more callous moments, i've though to myself "they just need to suck it up... this is a church gig, not a personal showcase". but i'm an ass, so...

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I forgot to add this in my novel-length post above...

My situation is slightly different than a typical band because there is a definite "leader" position, he is a paid staff member at the church where we play.

But, 2 things: (1) I still don't think that changes the idea of what a "band" is supposed to be--see my post above; and (2) many of the big events we get are outside the church--youth camps, that kind of thing.

I absolutely believe in honoring positions of authority. But I think there is also a limit to that. I also do not think that "authority position" always equals "right decisions" or "pure motives." :confused:

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i've been on both sides of this fence. and it is different for a worship gig. honestly IMO (and this could totally not be true for your situation). but church worship bands aren't actually bands... don't take this the wrong way, but church bands don't exist for "the band", nor for the musicians. it's a group of people who are coming together to provide something for the church.

 

 

 

Thanks for the comments, I do agree that a church worship band is different than a typical band. BUT, I still think that even in the church context there are teams for different purposes, and that leadership skills for any team--non-church band, church band, or other--are the same. For example, I am the leader of the "creative" team for our church, we plan video, drama, set design and other elements like that for the service. Are there more talented people in the world than some of our team members? Of course (including me). But if people are carrying their weight, I need to show loyalty to the people who are on my team.

 

My wife's dad was a pastor for fifty years before he retired. He was loyal to people on his staff to a fault. At various times in his ministry, he had staff members that were just legitimately BAD. Not just that they weren't the cream of the crop, they were just bad at their jobs.

 

Other pastors would say to him, why don't you fire so-and-so? He's terrible. My father in law would respond, that guy gave up a job to come to this church, moved his family from another town to this one, so I need to honor that sacrifice. I know he probably isn't the best possible person for the job, but he is the one who is here. So I need to support him.

 

Not surprisingly, people who served at the church under him thirty or forty years ago and have long since moved on still absolutely love and adore him, call him all the time, ask his advice, etc.

 

To me, that is a model of leadership, one I could only hope to follow. I would think the same principles apply to a band, and I'm not sure our leader is following them.

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OK, OP, I think I understand the dynamics of the situation a little better than I did at the beginning of the thread.

 

Here is my 2 cents on the whole thing, given that understanding:

 

- I still don't believe that you're mad for the wrong reasons, although I understand your and BlueStrat's points about questioning your own motivations. It doesn't sound like you want to play the big events because you want the personal audience recognition, but just because the experience of playing in itself is rewarding and sharing in the glorifying of God. I don't think you should feel bad about wanting that.

 

- I think your team leader IS doing what he's doing for the wrong reasons, i.e. trying to impress other people and perhaps be more "successful" in the music biz.

 

- Since it's not a real "band" as you say, and the team leader does have authority, he is within his "rights" to do what he's doing... however that doesn't mean that what he's doing is right and that you shouldn't talk to him about it. I would have a serious talk with him and maybe your pastor as well, and express your concerns.

 

What are the concerns, given that it's within his "rights" to use anybody he wants? Well... it's supposed to be a worship team. People have commited to a team, and to bring in other people who aren't on the team and not even in your church is not conducive to good teamwork, particularly when the motives for doing so are highly questionable.

 

Look at it this way: suppose your church had a basketball team, and everyone worked hard all season to get to the playoffs. The team leader happens to be friends with Kobe Bryant, and when the team gets to the playoffs, the coach tells one of the guys on the team that he can't play and Kobe is going fly into town for the day to sub.

 

Everyone would know that was wrong on several levels, right? And being silent wouldn't be the right thing to do when you know that something is wrong. In fact I'm even more pissed off that nobody else in the band stood up for you.

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I absolutely believe in honoring positions of authority. But I think there is also a limit to that. I also do not think that "authority position" always equals "right decisions" or "pure motives."
:confused:

I actually think this has been the source of abuse for a long time. I don't see anywhere in scripture where we are to blindly obey church leaders simply because they're leaders. I do see where we are to submit to one another in love. If your leader isn't being a good servant himself, well...that's between him, his overseer and God. Maybe he's under pressure from his leaders to step up the quality of worship. Or maybe he's just in it to look good. Who knows?

 

Your issue isn't one of authority. It's one of motive and intent. Is it really that important for you to be recognized and approved of by this guy? If so, why?

 

And FWIW, I've been on worship teams, led them, played everything from small groups to large international conferences, and every one of them were teams of rotating members. The idea of 'we're a band' was never even entertained. Even the traveling worship teams doing conferences carry extra people and rotate members, at least the ones I've been to and/or played.

 

Most churches have many gifted people, and we always tried to use as many of them as we could so that they could use their gifting. This is why I've always been in bands outside the church. I get my "look at me" ya yas out on stage at clubs and festivals. I get to serve the church in a worship team. I'm currently playing guitar in a worship team on a Tuesday night christian addiction recovery group. It's totally different than my other band. My band is all about "look at me!" The worship team is all about "look at Him!"

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The issue isn't one of authority. It's one of motive and intent. Is it really that important for you to be recognized and approved of by this guy? If so, why?

 

 

See my post above... I don't think being approved of by that guy is really the issue.

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It's one of motive and intent. Is it really that important for you to be recognized and approved of by this guy? If so, why?

 

 

I think both of these comments helped me to figure out part of the reason it ticks me off. As I said earlier, I am absolutely NOT in this for personal recognition. I seriously could be just as happy standing behind a curtain.

 

But not only do these big events tend to be fun, they also tend to be far more satisfying spiritually than regular Sunday services. For example, at a youth camp or a weekend-long event, people are more focused on God than at a normal Sunday service, and there is generally more time set aside for worship. What that usually translates into is a very rewarding experience where I get to see people really get into worshipping in a way that we don't usually see on Sundays. In usual Sunday morning services, most of the congregation is barely awake, much less really into the worship.

 

So, I play all of the Sunday morning services, and then I get replaced for the events where people are more focused on God and into the worship--and, to top it off, the purpose of the replacement is to have a more showy, solo-oriented stage presence for the band. That is frustrating.

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I realize I'm late to this party, but my Dad still runs the music in his parish and used to do it in our diocese. Different kind of environment than the OP's, but he would never pull something like this. If you were in the ensemble and the ensemble was performing, then everyone got to perform. He did use hired guns for things that the volunteer ensembles were not capable of, though. For instance, he would hire professionals to be the pit for the Messiah.

 

I would be offended if I were in the OP's shoes, regardless of his ability. If he's good enough to be in the ensemble, he should be able to perform when they perform.

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Yeah, that really sucks, OP. It seems that community and the shared experience of being focused on worship is the main reason people even go to church. And music helps people sharpen that focus, which is why all churches have music. Of course it all feels great and is fun - but it feels great in a completely different way from "Look at me!" I don't know where anyone got the idea that glorifying God isn't fun or personally rewarding... maybe that's why so many people are more attracted to blatantly selfish behavior. :lol:

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But not only do these big events tend to be fun, they also tend to be far more satisfying spiritually than regular Sunday services. For example, at a youth camp or a weekend-long event, people are more focused on God than at a normal Sunday service, and there is generally more time set aside for worship. What that usually translates into is a very rewarding experience where I get to see people really get into worshipping in a way that we don't usually see on Sundays. In usual Sunday morning services, most of the congregation is barely awake, much less really into the worship.


So, I play all of the Sunday morning services, and then I get replaced for the events where people are more focused on God and into the worship--and, to top it off, the purpose of the replacement is to have a more showy, solo-oriented stage presence for the band. That is frustrating.

Well, see, now you're clear on your motives. Notice I never questioned your motives; I merely advised you to. And you have come to a good conclusion, one I would have hoped you would. There is nothing wrong with having fun and being satisfied with worship. The problem is when that is the main motive, one you don't seem to posses.

 

Your next step is to ask your worship team leader out to coffee and tell him everything you just said here. Ask him if there is a reason why you get excluded from the larger gatherings or special events, and if there's anything you can work on to be considered for the position. He may not even be aware that it bothers you.

 

If he's a good leader, he'll hear you and help you either understand why he doesn't ask you to participate or he'll do his best to accommodate you, and if you need work, he'll help you get there. If he isn't a good leader, and just dismisses your concerns, you don't want to be there anyway.

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Thanks for the comments, I do agree that a church worship band is different than a typical band. BUT, I still think that even in the church context there are teams for different purposes, and that leadership skills for any team--non-church band, church band, or other--are the same. For example, I am the leader of the "creative" team for our church, we plan video, drama, set design and other elements like that for the service. Are there more talented people in the world than some of our team members? Of course (including me). But if people are carrying their weight, I need to show loyalty to the people who are on my team.


My wife's dad was a pastor for fifty years before he retired. He was loyal to people on his staff to a fault. At various times in his ministry, he had staff members that were just legitimately BAD. Not just that they weren't the cream of the crop, they were just bad at their jobs.


Other pastors would say to him, why don't you fire so-and-so? He's terrible. My father in law would respond, that guy gave up a job to come to this church, moved his family from another town to this one, so I need to honor that sacrifice. I know he probably isn't the best possible person for the job, but he is the one who is here. So I need to support him.


Not surprisingly, people who served at the church under him thirty or forty years ago and have long since moved on still absolutely love and adore him, call him all the time, ask his advice, etc.


To me, that is a model of leadership, one I could only hope to follow. I would think the same principles apply to a band, and I'm not sure our leader is following them.

 

 

I'm hearing mixed messages from you:

 

You say someone who is carrying their weight shouldn't be treated like you have been, but then go on to say that people who are terrible at their job/role shouldn't get replaced either, as long as they are dedicated..

So as long as you think someone is committed to the role...that's 'enough'?

 

I would say...

1) Never go into business of any sort, because those well-meaning but inept people working for you that you feel so loyal about will ruin you.

 

2) Were I ever in a 'real' band where everybody else, or even SOME of the rest of the band were terrible players, but 110% dedicated/committed to the band...I'd either walk away myself or figure out how to replace the weak links. That's not me being mean, or unappreciative of loyalty; that's me wanting the BAND to be good. All the time and effort I put into the band learning music and rehearsing, etc. is wasted if the other players generally aren't able to perform at a certain level.

 

 

I guess I feel that just because somebody means well doesn't mean they DO well, and sometimes you've got to let a mean well/do poor person loose...

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kmart... first of all we are taking the OP at his word that he isn't terrible, but he's just not a flashy player and neither are the other guys in the band that are NOT being subbed for. Apparently he is good enough to be in the band in the first place, so it's pretty easy to take him at his word.

 

Second, a church situation is not a business. Loyalty and teamwork IS a big part of the equation in that situation. That doesn't mean you put up with somebody who stinks, but it does mean that you don't recruit people outside the church for big events just because they're a flashier or better known player.

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kmart... first of all we are taking the OP at his word that he isn't terrible, but he's just not a flashy player and neither are the other guys in the band that are NOT being subbed for.



Yeah, I hate making an assessment of my own talent level. But I can accurately say that I am at least on par with, if not better than, other members of the band.

In contrast, the last replacement who was brought in this past weekend was HEAD AND SHOULDERS above the rest of the band. The guy was true pro level.

Forgot to add, not only did I get "replaced" at the youth event last weekend, but was also told, "while [name of replacement] is in town, we would like to let him play Sunday morning as well."

So I "enjoyed" :mad: sitting and hearing the guy fill in for me in the normal Sunday morning service. No doubt about it, the guy was way above the rest of the band talent-wise.

So this is definitely NOT a case where I am not pulling my weight or keeping up with the rest of the band. It is purely a case of the band leader wanting someone "better"/flashier for big events--and, I might add, someone who is much better than anyone else in the band.

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Kmart: If his playing is good enough to play Sunday morning, his playing is good enough for all the other shows PERIOD.

 

 

 

 

 

As a non-church goer, I just cannot condone accepting such treatment from someone. I despise confrontation, I despise selfishness and pride...but what I despise more is injustice. To me, this is an injustice - it is the abuse of authority, an abuse this 'leader' performs because he feels his victim is too afraid to say "NO".

 

However, out of respect for the faith of others, I will stay out of posting in this thread from here out or I'm gonna drive myself nuts and/or really start to offend people. To the OP, whatever happens - I truly hope that this situation is resolved in a manner that you can feel good about. Good luck to you sir.

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I dont see it as that big a deal ,,, you will run across all kinds of people who disrespect you. why give them the energy to even waste your time with pinheads like that.

 

 

Cuz he goes to church there. My guess is that he likes to be involved at church. That means he will see the guy often. And it is, rightly so, bothering him. So he should address it with him; he has a point.

 

These aren't pro gigs. They are not signed. You are there to serve and and have fellowship. If something a friend did in a mutual endeavor is bothering you, why not talk it out so there isn't anything under the table to worry about?

 

If it was a pro gig, I think there would be a different approach, no?

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Your next step is to ask your worship team leader out to coffee and tell him everything you just said here. Ask him if there is a reason why you get excluded from the larger gatherings or special events, and if there's anything you can work on to be considered for the position.

 

 

This ^^^^^ +1000

 

Do it plarwen53202...talk to the man and let us know.

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As a non-church goer, I just cannot condone accepting such treatment from someone. I despise confrontation, I despise selfishness and pride...but what I despise more is
injustice
. To me, this is an injustice - it is the abuse of authority, an abuse this 'leader' performs because he feels his victim is too afraid to say "NO".

 

 

Hey, I'm right there with ya, man.

 

But if Christ is our example (the word Christian itself means 'little Christ' and was meant by Romans as a derogatory term toward believers), then we have to try to do what Christ would have done. If anyone had a right to argue for their position, it was Him. But he didn't, and told us tha when we had something agains t someone, to go make it right with them, and if they continued to abuse us, to turn the other cheek. It's a hard thing to do. I fail miserably all the time. But I don't stop trying. It's better to be wronged than to be right if being right causes more discord. And if you're doing right, you'll be vindicated in the end.

 

Sometimes God allows us to be in crap situations to work something out in us that will prepare us for something better later. I've seen it in my own life and in the lives of others.

 

The spiritual life is filled with contradictions: you have to die to live, surrender to win, be chastised to learn patience, suffer to gain humility. It isn't always pretty and is almost never easy.

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