Doing an open mic saturdaynight! Whoo hoo!

[SeniorBlues]

If the venue is the attraction, what added value is the band bringing? Compensation is about being paid for adding value. If the venue has 100 people with a $1000 band but also has 100 people with a $200 band, the logical business decision is to hire the $200 band. Taking it one step further, if the venue still has 100 people with a "dad band" that's playing for free, the logical decision is to hire that band. If a person wants to charge for their services, they need to be adding value. Bands that want to be paid like pros need to be on the pro circuit, i.e. festivals, casinos, corporate events, weddings, etc. Anyone who thinks they can make a living playing music in bars is not realistic.

 

 

I don't claim to be familiar with the various types of club scenes all over the country, but Pat and I and some of the other older members on this list used to play full time in just the kind of venue that chordgirl describes. There is no added value that you refer to if the $200 band will fill the house consistently, but the rooms we're talking about maintained a certain standard of entertainment that the $200 band couldn't meet, so the club owner had to go to some trouble to make sure that the bands he brought in were up to the crowd's expectations.

[ChordGirl]

If the venue is the attraction, what added value is the band bringing? Compensation is about being paid for adding value. If the venue has 100 people with a $1000 band but also has 100 people with a $200 band, the logical business decision is to hire the $200 band. Taking it one step further, if the venue still has 100 people with a "dad band" that's playing for free, the logical decision is to hire that band. If a person wants to charge for their services, they need to be adding value. Bands that want to be paid like pros need to be on the pro circuit, i.e. festivals, casinos, corporate events, weddings, etc. Anyone who thinks they can make a living playing music in bars is not realistic.

 

 

Hiring good bands is part of the attraction. People go there knowing they're going to hear a good band. :poke: It's not added value, it's inherent value.

 

Hiring a band that is playing for free that brings their 100 closest friends is a bad business move long term. People walking in off the street hear the {censored}ty band and now know that the bar books {censored}ty bands and they don't come back ever. Whereas, if the band is always good, people will go to the venue without even knowing who the band is, because they know the band is always good. People come in off the street and remember that the bar had a good band. That's called building regular clientelle.

 

Your first paragraph is correct, assuming that the $1000 band and the $200 band are both good and don't drive anyone out of the bar. At that point, you've gotta know that 1 band is undercutting the other if they're the same level of musicianship. The other, perhaps, is over charging. It depends on what you're ringing, and as you said, if you can afford a $1000 band.

 

 

edit: Clubs that are run from this perspective are part of the pro circuit.

[Taylor Davis]

Oh yeah! This evening I talked to the manager at the bar where i did the open mic.
they have a night called ART N ALE which the manager and the owner wish me to do For PAY!:eek:
I was astounded because i was so rusty and messed up a few times.
They tolde me to "sharpen up", get two hours of music ready and to come in and do my thang.
This is serious cash and I am very much looking forward to the challenge.
I did a bunch of older tunes which the open mic crowd liked, yet I'm going to inject a few newer tunes that "I like" for the younger folkes.

Do what you love and the money will follow. PROVED!:wave:

[wades_keys]

Do what you love and the money will follow.

Being blessed doesn't hurt either I s'pose.

Now get outta here and go practice.

I need to do the same - got some gigs right around the corner.

[modulusman]

Taylor Davis, Glad it worked out well for you.

[Taylor Davis]

Taylor Davis, Glad it worked out well for you.

It ain't quite worked out yet. I still have to put the work in to larn tunes and actually do the job.
but my idea is beginning to bear fruit.
Giggity!
when I had a band I worked ten times as hard and had to split the cash three ways.
now I get to do what I wish and keep ALL the monies.
TD

[dramaticrunner]

you got a paying gig, congrats. but it doesn't "prove" anything.

Do what you love and the money will follow. PROVED! :wave:

[JoeDirt]

Hiring a band that is playing for free that brings their 100 closest friends is a bad business move long term. People walking in off the street hear the {censored}ty band and now know that the bar books {censored}ty bands and they don't come back ever. Whereas, if the band is always good, people will go to the venue without even knowing who the band is, because they know the band is always good. People come in off the street and remember that the bar had a good band. That's called building regular clientelle.

 

 

Listen to this lady, she speaks the truth. More bar owners should realize this but they are too short sighted to see the forest through the trees. They want the instant ADD inspired "now" results and the local bands that play for cheap yet bring a ton of extended friends and family are getting the gigs.

 

Too bad the bar owners don't realize in the long run that they will either go out of business doing this or have to drastically change their business model because friends and family can't make every gig on a local scene.

[rhat]

Listen to this lady, she speaks the truth. More bar owners should realize this but they are too short sighted to see the forest through the trees. They want the instant ADD inspired "now" results and the local bands that play for cheap yet bring a ton of extended friends and family are getting the gigs. Too bad the bar owners don't realize in the long run that they will either go out of business doing this or have to drastically change their business model because friends and family can't make every gig on a local scene.

 

 

 

A ton of them go out of business no matter what they do. You get the guy who always dreamed of having a bar,,, typically from the drunk side that has the stools. They fall into some money start one, and proceed to crash the place.

[Hollow body]

Bluestrat,

I hate going up against you, because you're a superb musician and a fine prose stylist, and I basically agree with what you're saying here.

I'm a cabinet maker, right? And my lunch is being eaten by the Chinese. Does that mean that I think anyone who buys a Chinese product is an asshole? Or who posts raving about his Chinese guitar, for example, is a troll?

Nope. I get why people buy cheap, quality products; I do it myself. I've quit making guitars because I can't begin to compete with the Asians.

I know the analogy isn't quite right, but you get the point. I've had to adjust. I've had to find a niche in which there's no slave-labor competition.

Look: a hundred bucks doesn't mean much to most grownups in this country. Having a great time does. The fact is that for someone who loves strumming in his basement, strumming for an appreciative crowd is ten times better. And like it or not, basement strummers are a dime a dozen these days. Until the culture gets back to wanting big band music, or symphonies, musicians aren't going to command much income.

Sucks. But there are niches.... No?

[wades_keys]

Our band has found venues to play that aren't as well known, where the competition isn't as fierce from other bands, and where the clientele expect something different from what is trendy at bars.

Riverfront patio bars, outdoor deck bars, country clubs with outdoor bars, and even a baseball game.

The thing is - you have to understand the demographic and find a balance between playing songs that you like vs. songs that will differentiate your band vs. songs that the audience will enjoy.

That means we don't follow what other bands do, because the "other bands" are all scrapping for the same gigs at the same {censored}-holes: we're just kind of doing our own thing and trying to stay in tune with what motivates us as players while meeting the expectations of the audience.

[BlueStrat]

You know, I just read this thread over again. And I have to concede that while I still hold the same opinion, I can see where there would be room for a different opinion and not everyone who plays for the fun of it and doesn't care about the money is the devil. I also realize I'm wrapped a little too tight on this subject and it brings out the dickhead in me. Believe it or not, that's not who I always am!

[modulusman]

Bluestrat, I hate going up against you, because you're a superb musician and a fine prose stylist, and I basically agree with what you're saying here. I'm a cabinet maker, right? And my lunch is being eaten by the Chinese. Does that mean that I think anyone who buys a Chinese product is an asshole? Or who posts raving about his Chinese guitar, for example, is a troll? Nope. I get why people buy cheap, quality products; I do it myself. I've quit making guitars because I can't begin to compete with the Asians. I know the analogy isn't quite right, but you get the point. I've had to adjust. I've had to find a niche in which there's no slave-labor competition. Look: a hundred bucks doesn't mean much to most grownups in this country. Having a great time does. The fact is that for someone who loves strumming in his basement, strumming for an appreciative crowd is ten times better. And like it or not, basement strummers are a dime a dozen these days. Until the culture gets back to wanting big band music, or symphonies, musicians aren't going to command much income. Sucks. But there are niches.... No?

 

 

But are the chinese giving their products away? It sucks having to compete on price but you can't compete with free. That was the main bitch about this whole thread. The OP is now supposedly going to get paid for his efforts. I am afraid to know how much but at least he won't be just giving it away.

[Hollow body]

But are the chinese giving their products away? It sucks having to compete on price but you can't compete with free. That was the main bitch about this whole thread. The OP is now supposedly going to get paid for his efforts. I am afraid to know how much but at least he won't be just giving it away.

No, they don't give it away. But I read here once that a container load of guitars cost $15 per unit, which, say, Rondo sells for like $130. It takes me maybe 20 hours to make a decent solid body, and that's if I buy the neck. So from my perspective, the Chinese might as well be giving them away.

My point is that in both my vocation and my avocation (music), I've chosen poorly. There's simply not much demand for the quality I offer in the broad market. So I don't make guitars anymore, and the furniture I make is what you can't buy at the local importer's. I've had to adjust. And no, I don't get too many gigs.

But to be clear: I totally agree with Bluestrat that strummers taking over the clubs is killing live music. I agree that it sucks that people are willing to give it away, and it sucks that club owners are dumb enough to book crap music -- to ruin their reputation for short term gain. But that's the way it's gone.

Maybe I'll post a thread asking for suggestions on new hobbys.

[SeniorBlues]

Maybe I'll post a thread asking for suggestions on new hobbys.

Part of the problem is leisure time and disposable income that allows you to get involved with a hobby seriously to the point where you are competing with pros, whether you intended to or not.

My interests tend to run in 7-10 year cycles. Cabinetmaking, youth soccer coaching, photography, and now back to playing music. In each case, I stepped on some pro's toes, although not to any great extent. Because I've been self-employed for forty years in a profession that also attracts moonlighters, I understand the amateur vs pro issue very well and never priced my "hobby" goods or services below market.

[Hollow body]

Part of the problem is leisure time and disposable income that allows you to get involved with a hobby seriously to the point where you are competing with pros, whether you intended to or not. My interests tend to run in 7-10 year cycles. Cabinetmaking, youth soccer coaching, photography, and now back to playing music. In each case, I stepped on some pro's toes, although not to any great extent. Because I've been self-employed for forty years in a profession that also attracts moonlighters, I understand the amateur vs pro issue very well and never priced my "hobby" goods or services below market.

Right. Me neither. The trouble is that the market price for my services has gotten depressingly low.

Probably makes more sense for me to post a thread asking for suggestions on a new career.

[rhat]

But are the chinese giving their products away? It sucks having to compete on price but you can't compete with free . That was the main bitch about this whole thread. The OP is now supposedly going to get paid for his efforts. I am afraid to know how much but at least he won't be just giving it away.

 

 

What really sucks is when that free bass player can also outplay you. Dont kid yourself ,, those guys are out there. Its a real crazy marketplace for musicans these days. Tons of guys are getting back in... some after full on careers as pro musicans who really dont want to play in a band full time. They dont want a answering machine full of calls for sub jobs.

 

the only saving grace is they will only play with top talent and will play for free because they dont want to be tied to a band ,, that has to play when the phone rings. It sucks , but when live music when to weekends it opened up the door for the weekend warrior. Now there are tons of {censored}ty dad bands and lowballers,,, but there are also guys who are fantastic musicans who will play on their own terms if they dont get tied down to a deal where they are expected to be there every time. You wont get those guys getting on stage with a second stringer front man though....... they only play for free with the first string. Their motivation is not money ,, its playing music.

[modulusman]

Whatever Rhat, Around here the real good musicians love doing sub jobs. They get to play a wide variety of music without all the hassles of being in a band. Then there are the guys that can only play at open mic/ jam sessions because they can't start or join a band for whatever reason.

[BlueStrat]

What really sucks is when that free bass player can also outplay you. Dont kid yourself ,, those guys are out there. Its a real crazy marketplace for musicans these days. Tons of guys are getting back in... some after full on careers as pro musicans who really dont want to play in a band full time. They dont want a answering machine full of calls for sub jobs. the only saving grace is they will only play with top talent and will play for free because they dont want to be tied to a band ,, that has to play when the phone rings. It sucks , but when live music when to weekends it opened up the door for the weekend warrior. Now there are tons of {censored}ty dad bands and lowballers,,, but there are also guys who are fantastic musicans who will play on their own terms if they dont get tied down to a deal where they are expected to be there every time. You wont get those guys getting on stage with a second stringer front man though....... they only play for free with the first string. Their motivation is not money ,, its playing music.

 

 

I don't know any good musicians around here that play for free unless it's a benefit or in church, no matter who is fronting the band. Most pros I know long ago lost any warm fuzzies they get from backing up guys who have names. In fact, the bigger the name, the more they expect to be paid for playing with them.

[johns7022]

Hi folkes! I'm doing an open mic this saturday-night at a local irish bar. The Flying Shamrock in Goldsboro NC which is an upscale bar with an irish flavor. mmm, mmm, good!. The cool thing is last time I played there no one else showed up to play, so I got to do my entire set list. IT went over well and the manager was impressed with the quality of the performance. I always get two free shirts. (one for me and me better half) the folkes and bartenders were jammin along and I was offered several beers from the patrons after particular tunes. I'm hoping that this will help me to eventually get a paying gig. I'm also going to brang several ceedees to sell as well. Wish me luck and come on out and show your support for a struggling musician. thanks for lettin me share! TD

Forget these guys Taylor....have a good time...and just remember, instead of playing out like a musician should, you could be swinging a hammer or hanging drywall....which would really suck....

[BlueStrat]

Forget these guys Taylor....have a good time...and just remember, instead of playing out like a musician should, you could be swinging a hammer or hanging drywall....which would really suck....

Yes, because playing for free is just like a day job.

[rhat]

I don't know any good musicians around here that play for free unless it's a benefit or in church, no matter who is fronting the band. Most pros I know long ago lost any warm fuzzies they get from backing up guys who have names. In fact, the bigger the name, the more they expect to be paid for playing with them.

 

 

You dont know a good musican friend that would come in and play with you for just the hell of it, if money was not a big yank for him and say back you up on bass to put a little more umph into your solo gig if he didnt have anything better to do, when he knew the money was pretty skinny and you needed to make all the cash because, he knew the trim biz is a little slow now? you are a top guy in your pond and a known name. maybe its a retired guy thing, kinda like ditching the watch, the cell phone and the day job, or any job for that matter. freedom is a wonderful thing pat. so is doing somthing for a friend, and expecting nothing in return. Its one of the biggest joys of being retired. If i feel like doing somthing for the hell of it ,, its just more fun. You didnt charge that kid you helped out with the CD did you?

[BlueStrat]

Tim, having friends come and sit in for a few songs happens all the time, as I do the same by sitting in with them. That isn't the same thing as going out with all my gear and playing whole gigs for free. Surely you can see the difference.

 

As to the kid I helped: No, I didn't charge him. But he paid me anyway, and I took it. You know why? because he put a value on what I did for him, and therefore put a value on what his product represented.

 

I have had him come and play with me on two gigs now in order to get him booked by himself (and he has been booked by both places). I paid him all my tips the first time (he played about 8 songs) and the last gig he played the whole night, with us swapping songs. I split the gig pay and the tips with him. The first place is local and pays him what they pay me, which is 100 bucks +tips for two hours. The second gig pays 200 + tips for two hours, but it's 200 miles away. I'm mentoring him and helping him, and one of the things I'm teaching him is how to get paid for playing and not waste his time playing for free in hopes of getting paid later.

 

I practice what I preach.

[BlueStrat]

When I do the sit in thing ,,, its a little different. I do have to load in my instrument. with keys that means getting there before the gig,,, and loading out after the gig. I go through the board so no keyboard amp. If i go to the trouble to load in , I might as well play the whole gig. another difference is that the guy I do this with has no day job. He is a full time musican, but like the rest of us, he has full time bills, plus he is an indy artist who puts out studio produced CDs. He has a little more on his plate than a weekend warror ex road guy like yourself with a second income. He is still in the game swining for the fences. Its a different deal i think.

I don't know why you're arguing with me about this. I already told you that your situation is fairly unique and hasn't much to do with the original poster going into a paying club and playing for free. Since he said his intention was to get a paying gig, it is safe to assume that he isn't just doing it for fun, or to help someone out.

In your situation, I assume the main guy is getting paid and you're playing with him because you like it. But that's between you and him, just as when I invited my young friend to sit in with me to audition, I didn't expect the club to pay him for it. I did it on my own. But it would be different if the club expected a 5 piece band and only wanted t pay for two guys, or the whole band offered to play for free. I can't hang with that.

[rhat]

I don't know why you're arguing with me about this. I already told you that your situation is fairly unique and hasn't much to do with the original poster going into a paying club and playing for free. Since he said his intention was to get a paying gig, it is safe to assume that he isn't just doing it for fun, or to help someone out. In your situation, I assume the main guy is getting paid and you're playing with him because you like it. But that's between you and him, just as when I invited my young friend to sit in with me to audition, I didn't expect the club to pay him for it. I did it on my own. But it would be different if the club expected a 5 piece band and only wanted t pay for two guys, or the whole band offered to play for free. I can't hang with that.

thats cool.... I only did it on sunday. I looked at it as the church of rock and roll.