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Doing an open mic saturdaynight! Whoo hoo!


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Oh yeah I walked across the street to another bar and the manager over there asked me to come in next week and do a set for his crowd.
a quadruple win? I believe so ! double whoo hoo!
I really enjoy playing out and will continue to do so where ever and when ever I can.

Did you quote him a price? When the original bar owner asked you back, did you ask him for money, or are you just hoping someday he says, "Here a few hundred."?

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And at the end of the day it really doesnt mean a whole lot. This has to be the deadest horse kind of thread on here. No doubt that pat can smoke this original poster when it comes to music. But then we have pat saying his band is getting to the point where they are willing to go turn one for 50 bucks so they dont have to sit home and watch the wife watch the home and garden channel.


Hell I have been playing for fun,, and the wife has been home watching the home and garden channel and its prolly going to cost me a kitchen remodel job, letting her get two cats and two of those little robots that sweep up the tile on their own after I come home from a free gig and attack a box of crackers and the robot can clean up the crumbs from the puter room. Why because I like to play. If you want you can come down and bid the trim job ,, but then there will prolly be some mexican that will do it cheaper.


Its like the guy that empties the crappers on the airline and plays with the blue water ,,,,, a guy says why do you do this. He say ,, you mean and get out of aviation.?



Well, Tim, all I can say to that is anyone can get a lot of gigs if their standards are low enough. We'll probably never agree on that, but I will never ever adopt the "join 'em if you can't beat 'em" crowd. I'm going to fight the devaluing of this business until I'm dead. That's crazy talk, I know. :wave:

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Well, Tim, all I can say to that is anyone can get a lot of gigs if their standards are low enough. We'll probably never agree on that, but I will never ever adopt the "join 'em if you can't beat 'em" crowd. I'm going to fight the devaluing of this business until I'm dead. That's crazy talk, I know.
:wave:



No problem you are free to do what you want to do ,, but then you are the guy who is riding the knock off japanese harley davidson because you wont spring the cash for the real deal. Its basically the same argument. Yours goes down the road as well ,, so basically it fills the bar ,, but its cheaper and it takes jobs away from the much better paid guys at HD. Ride safe. keep the rubber side down guy. A kaw will never be a harley and a 300 dollar bar band wont be your band .... but then the guys that write the checks get to make the choice of what works for them. :thu: I dont think you owe HD guys a living ,, and I dont think those dad bands owe you one. thats just the way I swing. Its good that you can do a solo act ,, you can go out and get paid what you feel you are worth.... and no one but the owner of the bar has to agree with you. thats why solo acts do so well. Its where most top guys end up. The best gig on keys is a solo piano/organ bar gig where the guys plays and sings. The same with guitar.



I think we can just call this one a stale mate. Your japanese knock off fills up your bar ,,,,, I ride the bar and shield brand.

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No problem you are free to do what you want to do ,, but then you are the guy who is riding the knock off japanese harley davidson because you wont spring the cash for the real deal. Its basically the same argument. Yours goes down the road as well ,, so basically it fills the bar ,, but its cheaper and it takes jobs away from the much better paid guys at HD. Ride safe. keep the rubber side down guy. A kaw will never be a harley and a 300 dollar bar band wont be your band .... but then the guys that write the checks get to make the choice of what works for them.
:thu:
I dont think you owe HD guys a living ,, and I dont think those dad bands owe you one. thats just the way I swing. Its good that you can do a solo act ,, you can go out and get paid what you feel you are worth.... and no one but the owner of the bar has to agree with you. thats why solo acts do so well. Its where most top guys end up. The best gig on keys is a solo piano/organ bar gig where the guys plays and sings. The same with guitar.




I think we can just call this one a stale mate. Your japanese knock off fills up your bar ,,,,, I ride the bar and shield brand.




Well said, IMO...



- georgestrings

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No problem you are free to do what you want to do ,, but then you are the guy who is riding the knock off japanese harley davidson because you wont spring the cash for the real deal. Its basically the same argument. Yours goes down the road as well ,, so basically it fills the bar ,, but its cheaper and it takes jobs away from the much better paid guys at HD. Ride safe. keep the rubber side down guy. A kaw will never be a harley and a 300 dollar bar band wont be your band .... but then the guys that write the checks get to make the choice of what works for them.
:thu:
I dont think you owe HD guys a living ,, and I dont think those dad bands owe you one. thats just the way I swing. Its good that you can do a solo act ,, you can go out and get paid what you feel you are worth.... and no one but the owner of the bar has to agree with you. thats why solo acts do so well. Its where most top guys end up. The best gig on keys is a solo piano/organ bar gig where the guys plays and sings. The same with guitar.




I think we can just call this one a stale mate. Your japanese knock off fills up your bar ,,,,, I ride the bar and shield brand.

 

I can't agree with that comparison. Some bands, artists, and musicians are drastically undercutting what the professionals charge. That's great for them in the short term, but in the long term, it hurts the music business. Besides that, the quality of these artists isn't usually the quality of a "pro" band, although YMMV. But would you REALLY be happy if someone got hired by your company to do your job for a t-shirt in payment?

 

In the end though.. I'm sure that some places would hire the guy that'll paint the bar for 50 bucks, or design a logo for 25 dollars.. but they aren't going to have the same level of work as they would if they hired a pro. They'll also FOREVER fuss about getting horrible work, and will sour on ever hiring a pro painter or graphic artist.

 

It's a different thing altogether..

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I can't agree with that comparison. Some bands, artists, and musicians are drastically undercutting what the professionals charge. That's great for them in the short term, but in the long term, it hurts the music business. Besides that, the quality of these artists isn't usually the quality of a "pro" band, although YMMV. But would you REALLY be happy if someone got hired by your company to do your job for a t-shirt in payment?


In the end though.. I'm sure that some places would hire the guy that'll paint the bar for 50 bucks, or design a logo for 25 dollars.. but they aren't going to have the same level of work as they would if they hired a pro. They'll also FOREVER fuss about getting horrible work, and will sour on ever hiring a pro painter or graphic artist.


It's a different thing altogether..

 

 

 

Hmmm not really ,,, the bottom line is that if you really are a full on pro level musican who is willing to go do what real full on pros do at the level they do it ,, you will get paid well. You just have to go do the kind of gigs that require full blown pro musicans. events , fesitvals, weddings and corp gigs or jobs that require a degree in music with a masters and PHD.

 

If you expect the weekend warrior dad bands to stand down from the corner bar because of you ,, you are kidding yourself. They dont owe you {censored}. Its not like the guys whining have any respect for them no matter what they do.

 

If no one will pay you what you think you are worth ,, stay in the basement. If you want to play, go play for what you can get,and go play.

 

Tough old world ,, ya gotta live life for you , because that other guy could give a rat's ass about you. Blunt yea... but no way in hell should you expect the other guy to take a dive because you claim to be a pro. If you really are ,, you should be able to figure out a way to make it work for you. The old this hurts music is bunk ,, there have always been {censored}ty bands and there always will be {censored}ty bands. Nothing has changes about that. What it really means is that you think you are worth more than you can get ,,, If you cant get it ,, its because no one will write you the check because you are fishing in the shallow pond and expecting to catch big fish.. They dont live in that pond. You need to be fishing in the ocean not in little pond out of a row boat.

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I know it's been beat to death but I'm getting a lot from this thread. That being said I think it's more a case of the economy forcing big fish into smaller ponds.

 

 

True ,, but they still wont get the big meal since it doesnt take a 250 a man band to play those gigs. No one is making the returns they did on anything a few years ago. ya got to suck it up. Would you expect the guy who worked next to you to stay home from work, so you could get his paycheck and yours too because you used to have a GM UAW job before he started working where you worked?

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True ,, but they still wont get the big meal since it doesnt take a 250 a man band to play those gigs. No one is making the returns they did on anything a few years ago. ya got to suck it up. Would you expect the guy who worked next to you to stay home from work, so you could get his paycheck and yours too because you used to have a GM UAW job before he started working where you worked?

 

 

I think you just made the point I was trying to make. Only more eloquently.

 

cheers.

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I know it's been beat to death but I'm getting a lot from this thread. That being said I think it's more a case of the economy forcing big fish into smaller ponds.

 

 

There's some truth to this IMO. Around here, I see some pretty well known, big time performers playing venues they didn't do years past. And for way less than they used to make.

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No problem you are free to do what you want to do ,, but then you are the guy who is riding the knock off japanese harley davidson because you wont spring the cash for the real deal. Its basically the same argument. Yours goes down the road as well ,, so basically it fills the bar ,, but its cheaper and it takes jobs away from the much better paid guys at HD. Ride safe. keep the rubber side down guy. A kaw will never be a harley and a 300 dollar bar band wont be your band .... but then the guys that write the checks get to make the choice of what works for them.
:thu:
I dont think you owe HD guys a living ,, and I dont think those dad bands owe you one. thats just the way I swing. Its good that you can do a solo act ,, you can go out and get paid what you feel you are worth.... and no one but the owner of the bar has to agree with you. thats why solo acts do so well. Its where most top guys end up. The best gig on keys is a solo piano/organ bar gig where the guys plays and sings. The same with guitar.




I think we can just call this one a stale mate. Your japanese knock off fills up your bar ,,,,, I ride the bar and shield brand.



Dude, seriously? Your motorcycle comparison is apples to rocks.

1) My bike was made in the USA. Either Nebraska or Missouri. So insytead of guys in York PA getting the work someone else in this country did.
2) You're paying that extra 4 k for a bar and shield logo and nothing more. You think the workers get paid that extra dough?
3) My buying my bike had less to do with price and everything to do with having a watercooled motor, self adjusting valves, longer frame for my 6'4" body and low maintenance with a motor that will turn 80 or 90 k.
4) My buying that bike didn't put a dent in Harley's sales, since they whore their brand out to anything and everything they can slap it on from boot laces to dog dishes. I wouldn't own one for that reason alone. :facepalm:

But here's the real comparison:

5) How long do you think the guys working at the Harley factory would put up with guys who like working on motorcycles coming into their workplace and turning wrenches for free or 5 bucks an hour in hopes of getting hired full time later? That's the only analogy that applies here, because that's what's happening in the clubs.

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If you expect the weekend warrior dad bands to stand down from the corner bar because of you ,, you are kidding yourself. They dont owe you {censored}. Its not like the guys whining have any respect for them no matter what they do.

 

 

I don't expect them to quit playing, and I challenge to to show me where I ever did. I said they should stop giving it away and {censored}ing it up for everyone else. I stand by that. If they aren't good enough to get paid decently, stay out of the clubs until they are. And if the clubs still won't pay, boycott them until they find a way to pay for music the same way they pay for everything else. That's the way it has been done since before I started playing.

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Dude, seriously? Your motorcycle comparison is apples to rocks.


1) My bike was made in the USA. Either Nebraska or Missouri. So insytead of guys in York PA getting the work someone else in this country did.

2) You're paying that extra 4 k for a bar and shield logo and nothing more. You think the workers get paid that extra dough?

3) My buying my bike had less to do with price and everything to do with having a watercooled motor, self adjusting valves, longer frame for my 6'4" body and low maintenance with a motor that will turn 80 or 90 k.

4) My buying that bike didn't put a dent in Harley's sales, since they whore their brand out to anything and everything they can slap it on from boot laces to dog dishes. I wouldn't own one for that reason alone.
:facepalm:

But here's the real comparison:


5) How long do you think the guys working at the Harley factory would put up with guys who like working on motorcycles coming into their workplace and turning wrenches for free or 5 bucks an hour in hopes of getting hired full time later? That's the only analogy that applies here, because that's what's happening in the clubs.



Its not your workplace its a fkn local bar. You can be replaced by a juke box or a big screen tv or a {censored}ty band. Unless you have the lease you are just hired help and part time help at that. No pat the reason why you dont own one was that you were not willing to pay what it took to buy one and you bought the japanese bike that looks like the real thing,,, You ride the dad band bike. Good enough for you... Nothing wrong with your scoot ,, but you an I both know when you tell someone you ride motorcyles ,, the first words out of their mouth is , Is it a harley.. Then you go into your defend your bike mode like you did here. thats cool, but i know you would take the bait. every one of you guys do. Its like clockwork. I dont care what you ride, but you do lol. You need to get back out on the festival tour... its where pros belong , not down at the local bar all pissed off because a dad band can keep those guys happy. You and I both know they cant pull off a festival gig , no more than you can turn that bike of yours into a real HD. That takes more money ,,, Now you dont think its worth it. Lots of guys dont think you and your buddies are worth it for a local bar gig. You need to be in the turf you can control.. not where you are trying to control and cant. They didnt need an ATP to teach some kid to fly a cessna 150 either. but then needed one to get insured in a multi million dollar turbo prop. thats where I got paid what I was worth ,,, i got the same pay as a kid right out of the flight mill in that little bug smasher ,, that is till they put a tailwheel on it and then they needed a real seasoned flight instructor and my pay went way the hell up because not only did they need me , but they needed that old antique airplane too... i had total financial control of both. you need to get back into the big leagues or just settle for bar pay. sorry thats the truth. and we both know it

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I
don't expect them to quit playing
, and I challenge to to show me where I ever did.
I said they should stop giving it away and {censored}ing it up for everyone else
. I stand by that. If they aren't good enough to get paid decently,
stay out of the clubs until they are
. And if the clubs still won't pay, boycott them until they find a way to pay for music the same way they pay for everything else. That's the way it has been done since before I started playing.

 

 

You need to re read this post ,,, you want them to stand down for because its good for you. They are happy and you are not.

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...Lots of guys dont think you and your buddies are worth it for a local bar gig. You need to be in the turf you can control.. not where you are trying to control and cant. They didnt need an ATP to teach some kid to fly a cessna 150 either. but then needed one to get insured in a multi million dollar turbo prop. thats where I got paid what I was worth ,,, i got the same pay as a kid right out of the flight mill in that little bug smasher ,, that is till they put a tailwheel on it and then they needed a real seasoned flight instructor and my pay went way the hell up because not only did they need me , but they needed that old antique airplane too... i had total financial control of both. you need to get back into the big leagues or just settle for bar pay. sorry thats the truth. and we both know it

 

 

I'm in a different situation than BlueStrat, as I'm playing mostly nightclub and bar gigs, with the occasional festival and college gig (at the moment). That said, my argument isn't against a band playing a bar gig cheaper than me. My fussing is when someone is playing for free.. or when someone is playing in a situation where they are NOT making money. A four piece band can't play for $200 and make any money, period. They're subsidizing the music "business" (as they don't view it as such) by covering expenses with they money they make from another job. That's fine, I suppose.. but there is a time and a place for that, and it's open mic night.. that's where the hobbyists are supposed to play! While most of these bands are never going to be a top flight club band, and are probably not going to DIRECTLY take away gigs from my group... they ARE souring people on booking bands, ruining clubs, and spoiling club owners, who will then think they can get a great quality band to work for next to nothing.

 

That said, "settling for bar pay" isn't my issue. My issue is that there are bands trying to drive the prices those clubs want to pay even LOWER, and it's already hard enough keeping my bills paid.

 

It's just ignorant business. Let's say I didn't need you to teach me how to fly a huge jet.. but I wanted you to teach me how to fly a Cessna. Would you do it for a t-shirt? Probably not. Let's say I did have a huge jet though, and while I had a budget where I could afford you, I instead found someone who'd teach me to fly it if I gave them a t-shirt. Quite possibly AFTER I called you and discussed what I'd need in an instructor. Wouldn't you feel just a bit slighted at that?

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Rhat , I hope you make good on your promise to quit posting here when you go back North. You havn't been in a PAYING band since Nixon was president.:eek: Yet you have 20,000 posts talking out your ass because you have no clue what being in a band is about. What a poser.:rolleyes:

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Pfft. By your logic, someone who works at Wal Mart can't say that Wal Mart is their work place. After all, they could be replaced by an automated checkout.. and they don't have the lease to the place.


Really, doesn't "hired help" imply that the person or people hired there can call that the place in which they work?





I'm not knocking anyone keeping people at the local bars happy. I'm knocking them being stupid and working for free. I still haven't seen you reply to any of the analogies comparing this situation to that of a plumber, bike mechanic, or any other independent contractor (because legally, that is what we are), working for free or a t-shirt.




I'm in a different situation than BlueStrat, as I'm playing mostly nightclub and bar gigs, with the occasional festival and college gig (at the moment). That said, my argument isn't against a band playing a bar gig cheaper than me. My fussing is when someone is playing for free.. or when someone is playing in a situation where they are NOT making money. A four piece band can't play for $200 and make any money, period. They're subsidizing the music "business" (as they don't view it as such) by covering expenses with they money they make from another job. That's fine, I suppose.. but there is a time and a place for that, and it's open mic night.. that's where the hobbyists are supposed to play! While most of these bands are never going to be a top flight club band, and are probably not going to DIRECTLY take away gigs from my group... they ARE souring people on booking bands, ruining clubs, and spoiling club owners, who will then think they can get a great quality band to work for next to nothing.


That said, "settling for bar pay" isn't my issue. My issue is that there are bands trying to drive the prices those clubs want to pay even LOWER, and it's already hard enough keeping my bills paid.


It's just ignorant business. Let's say I didn't need you to teach me how to fly a huge jet.. but I wanted you to teach me how to fly a Cessna. Would you do it for a t-shirt? Probably not. Let's say I did have a huge jet though, and while I had a budget where I could afford you, I instead found someone who'd teach me to fly it if I gave them a t-shirt. Quite possibly AFTER I called you and discussed what I'd need in an instructor. Wouldn't you feel just a bit slighted at that?

 

 

 

How does them not making money effect you really? Are they playing in a better band? Lets say they were all old guys that didnt care to play full time in a band , didnt give a {censored} about money, and could put your band away? face it you cant control them ,no matter how much they sucked or how good they were,,,,,, so I can see no reason to give it all the negative energy.

 

I mean lets say you got this drummer that plays like buddy rich, but he is a miserable sob to be around. The guys i run with would just say get this asshole out of here and fire up the drum machine. There is such a thing as on their own time musicans.... they are what they are. hate them ,love them ,, they will always exist no matter what you think. worry about your own game. Guys do what they do ,,,,you might think its stupid because its stupid for you.. for them it may work. The biggest mistake peole make is getting all caught up in what the other guy is doing, since you really cant do {censored} about it anyway. Most of the time you just end up making yourself look bad. I mean think about it... who wants to hear some guy bitch about old so an so is playing for free. It makes you just look smaller in my opinon. If the guy sucks ,, you look bad ,, if he can put you away it makes you look bad. entertainers need to be happy and make people want to like them, Bitchin doesnt do that. Typically its not like water ,, you might think you can turn it off and on ,, but there is always that drip , drip ,drip and people notice. just my take on things..

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Rhat , I hope you make good on your promise to quit posting here when you go back North. You havn't been in a PAYING band since Nixon was president.
:eek:
Yet you have 20,000 posts talking out your ass because you have no clue what being in a band is about. What a poser.
:rolleyes:



I play with some pretty good musicans mod.... i do it on my own terms and its workin for me. thats really all that counts. One thing for sure ,, I know i am happy with what I am doing ,,,, i dont think you really are. If they made a bass machine ,,, I would vote to replace you with one lol. I also know that when you look in the mirror in the morning you see a guy that you are not happy with. Why dont you put me on ingnore and work on that guy you see first thing in the morning in the mirror. that would be my best suggestion to you...

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I play with some pretty good musicans mod.... i do it on my own terms and its workin for me. thats really all that counts. One thing for sure ,, I know i am happy with what I am doing ,,,, i dont think you really are. If they made a bass machine ,,, I would vote to replace you with one lol. I also know that when you look in the mirror in the morning you see a guy that you are not happy with. Why dont you put me on ingnore and work on that guy you see first thing in the morning in the mirror. that would be my best suggestion to you...



Thanks for the advice Dr. Phil.:lol: Maybe you should ask yourself why you have such low self esteem that you feel you don't deserve to get paid.:idea:

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After reading all of this, it seems you all have forgotten one point...

This is (was) a capitalist society and capitalism means competition. If you can't compete with quality, compete with price. If you can't compete with price, compete with quality. What the customer wants will determine the winner.

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Thanks for the advice Dr. Phil.
:lol:
Maybe you should ask yourself why you have such low self esteem that you feel you don't deserve to get paid.
:idea:



Mud there are many ways to get paid in life. having good friends, making good music and enjoying what you are doing for now is payment enough for me for what I am doing. Somehow I feel getting lectured by a guy who cant make it work too well in either of his chosen trades ,,, running a trim gun or making music is a waste of your time and words. Why dont you just work on your game becuase it seems like it needs more of your attention than than your focus on mine. I am doing fine. got a few physical issues on my plate these days that are far more important to me than the money from a gig. For now ,. playing music with my running buds ,,, going back to michigan and moving out of a house and getting moved down here to texas is alittle higher priority than the bucks from turning a gig with my musical corhorts. I have two winters in with these guys and just came off doing 28 weeks of 3 hour sunday shows this season. For now a no committment gig is what works for me since I still have one foot in michigan and one foot in texas. So if just going in and playing is enough to keep me happy , that really is all counts. I dont need any advice from a guy like you. I figure you are having enough issues of your own that ,, you really are not in any situation to really be able to try to run my life when you cant even seem to run your own. I am not trying to be a smart ass ,, but guy,,, I am doing well enough for me for the time being. Money is not my major issue at this time. I can fully understand that its yours. We have alot different challenges on our plates. You deal with yours.....and you will be much better served. I hope things work out well for you. Now get out of my grill.

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From a venues perspective, a band is worth how much they draw. If a band doesn't draw anyone, or only a few friends and family, they aren't worth much if anything. If a band can draw 500 people, I guarantee you the venue would be more than willing to pay the band well. If Eric Clapton played a local bar, the bar could easily charge a $30 cover charge and pack the place. A bit of an extreme, I know, but I think it illustrates the point. If a band is not getting paid as much as they think they are worth, then they are not drawing enough people.

I've heard the argument that it's not the band's responsibility to put people in the venue. That is a fallacious argument from a business perspective. If the band is not paying for itself, at a minimum, by the draw, it is a foolish business decision for a venue to hire the band. It is a business decision. The art aspect is irrelevant to this discussion.

For the big fish who find themselves in small ponds, probably the best way to draw large crowds is to only play 3 or 4 times a year. That way, each time would be special. With a large draw, the pay could be where the big fish wants it to be. Playing the same venues every week and expecting a large draw is unrealistic.

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^^^In the short term, maybe.

Whatever happened to the business model that was all about the venue being the attraction? You know, good food, good service, good music, good place to be. A place you'll stop by anytime you want to go out, because you know the band with be top notch, as will the service, food, and drinks? A place where the clientelle is not driven out by the band, but they stay because the band is good.

Hiring strictly on draw is a bad idea long term. The band has to be good, too.

Of course, when you start talking about the 1% of venues out there that can actually hold 500 people, the game changes a bit.

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Whatever happened to the business model that was all about the venue being the attraction?

 

 

If the venue is the attraction, what added value is the band bringing? Compensation is about being paid for adding value. If the venue has 100 people with a $1000 band but also has 100 people with a $200 band, the logical business decision is to hire the $200 band. Taking it one step further, if the venue still has 100 people with a "dad band" that's playing for free, the logical decision is to hire that band. If a person wants to charge for their services, they need to be adding value.

 

Bands that want to be paid like pros need to be on the pro circuit, i.e. festivals, casinos, corporate events, weddings, etc. Anyone who thinks they can make a living playing music in bars is not realistic.

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