Members VinylMan Posted August 21, 2011 Members Share Posted August 21, 2011 I think I've reached the limit with my drummer. Nice guy and the band members think he is technically proficient but he doesn't work for me. Main problem is that he is too darn LOUD. You know there is pounding and then there is POUNDING. I always get the sense that his playing style is more of a week-end release the frustrations of the week exercise than a musical performance. It's like a stress releasing therapy session for him and damned what works best for the band or the song. Secondly he is always crashing the cymbals to the point where it almost defies belief. Hard to believe that so many songs in his mind require so many cymbal crashes; literally at every ten second interval. Even the ballads. I'll admit I'm sensitive to the crashing cymbals as in my mind it's a sign of a hack and I think less is better and only at certain points is the accent necessary if at all. Listen to the songs as recorded and you don't hear a lot of crashing cymbals but my drummer is bashing even when I'm singing. So am I wrong? Any experiences here that can be shared? And ultimately what makes a great drummer in your eyes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Austincowbell Posted August 21, 2011 Members Share Posted August 21, 2011 I think I've reached the limit with my drummer. Nice guy and the band members think he is technically proficient but he doesn't work for me. Main problem is that he is too darn LOUD. You know there is pounding and then there is POUNDING. I always get the sense that his playing style is more of a week-end release the frustrations of the week exercise than a musical performance. It's like a stress releasing therapy session for him and damned what works best for the band or the song. Secondly he is always crashing the cymbals to the point where it almost defies belief. Hard to believe that so many songs in his mind require so many cymbal crashes; literally at every ten second interval. Even the ballads. I'll admit I'm sensitive to the crashing cymbals as in my mind it's a sign of a hack and I think less is better and only at certain points is the accent necessary if at all. Listen to the songs as recorded and you don't hear a lot of crashing cymbals but my drummer is bashing even when I'm singing.So am I wrong? Any experiences here that can be shared? And ultimately what makes a great drummer in your eyes? "reign it in" problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted August 21, 2011 Members Share Posted August 21, 2011 A great drummer (or any musician) compliments the song. Everything he does adds to the performance aknowledging that the sond comes first and he comes second. Your drummer's style might fit better in a metal group or something with less subtle touches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members diocide Posted August 21, 2011 Members Share Posted August 21, 2011 Sounds like he's a "power" type player rather than a "finesse" type player. Sounds like he's not a good fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted August 21, 2011 Members Share Posted August 21, 2011 I've never had any luck changing a drummer's style in such a manner. If it's not a good fit, then you probably have to look elsewhere. We had a similar situation a few years back. Playing with a drummer who was a good guy and a decent drummer but just played EXCESSIVELY loud and couldn't play any quieter. We tried everything---rehearsing with him working on playing quieter, putting up plexi-glass around him--nothing worked. The only thing that might have ultimately worked would have been an electronic kit, but he wasn't going to go there so...he had to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted August 21, 2011 Members Share Posted August 21, 2011 A great drummer is one that listens to what is going on and compliments it. He is not trying to be the "star". I suggest getting your drummer an E-kit. Give him IEMs that allow him to hear himself as loud as he wants and you control FOH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpaceNorman Posted August 21, 2011 Members Share Posted August 21, 2011 I prefer not to work with a "lead drummer". There's not much place for it in the groups that I work with musically speaking. A drummer who's all about his kick, snare and hi-hat will make a much greater contribution to our rhythm section than the guy who's all about the multi-tom rolls and flailing cymbal crashes. I won't work with a "clubber" - that the guy who is simply oblivious to his volume. I realize that drums are by nature, a loud instrument - but the drummer who dismisses his bandmates' calls to dial it back a little with excuses that it can't be done - will be out of my life within a gig or two. The reality is that if we, his bandmates, are complaining about it - there's no question it's an issue for the folks who hired us are not happy about the volume. Keeping a drummer that can't adjust his playing to fit the room is essentially a group "death by drummer" type suicide. Put simply, the gigs dry up and the group dies. Personally, I'm of the opinion that attempts to change a "clubber" or a "lead drummer" are pretty much a waste of time. Those traits are at the heart of who they are musically speaking - and something that will require an ephiphany on the drummer's part to change. The chance that you have the ability to say or do anything to change his approach are right around slim and none. Save yourself the wasted time and energy and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tim_7string Posted August 21, 2011 Members Share Posted August 21, 2011 I'm with everyone who says that he will continue to be the way he is. Basically, your choices are to keep him and deal with it or lose him and find someone else who will fit the job better. I'd go with the latter option myself. Someone who is incapable of blending in with the other bandmembers is not someone I want to be in a band with, period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted August 21, 2011 Members Share Posted August 21, 2011 A drummer who's all about his kick, snare and hi-hat will make a much greater contribution to our rhythm section than the guy who's all about the multi-tom rolls and flailing cymbal crashes. +1. You can tell a lot about a drummer (my opinion anyway) by how many drums he DOESN'T feel he "needs". My current guy has a typically-sized drum kit but only uses a kick, snare and hi-hat for rehearsal. He knows the tom fills and cymbal crashes are just flourishes that aren't necessary to the "meat" of any song we do. He'll maybe set up one tom if we're learning a song that has something very tom-specific in it. Guys that I've played with that feel they can't even begin to rehearse unless they've got all 3 kick drums, the roto-toms and the wind-chimes set up are the guys who pretty much never last in the band long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted August 21, 2011 Members Share Posted August 21, 2011 Yah know - threads like this remind me of how lucky I've been with the drummers I've played with and done sound for . Friday night I was doin' sound for an 8 piece classic rock band using only a pair of 8" mains behind the band and no monitors. The drummer was using hotrods and they OWNED that wedding crowd! Heck, I even look forward to their rendition of MS . Not many bashers gettin' $2000 gigs with an open bar and prime rib dinners . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members VinylMan Posted August 21, 2011 Author Members Share Posted August 21, 2011 The other problem I have is that he pulls out these crazy drum fills out of the blue when doing some songs and as the vocalist (and also positioned in front of him) I always hear it and it bothers me when I'm doing the vocals. The bass player has complimented him on these "fills" so I think he looks at it as his occasional "showcase" moment to demonstrate how creative he is but I think it's nothing more than gratuitous and self-serving. I'm all about the song and beyond that, and since these are vocal songs, about the vocals. I've told him and the rest of the band many times to keep their individual volumes down so the song and the vocals are always predominant and out front. I'm not an "exactly as recorded" song nazi but that's always the starting point in my mind and you vary according to the individual talents and capabilities. These songs are masterpieces performed by the greatest session men (and women like Carol Kane) in history and if they didn't think a single cymbal crash was necessary in the song why does my drummer feel it is? Last night we pulled out Neil Diamond's Solitary Man to lengthen a set and damned if he didn't crash the cymbals about 4 times during that song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted August 21, 2011 Members Share Posted August 21, 2011 Sounds like a "Pete Best" to me . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mstreck Posted August 21, 2011 Members Share Posted August 21, 2011 I'm probably not the best person to ask... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kmart Posted August 21, 2011 Members Share Posted August 21, 2011 Last night we pulled out Neil Diamond's Solitary Man to lengthen a set and damned if he didn't crash the cymbals about 4 times during that song. You're playing Solitary Man in a 'full band' setting?4 times sounds just about perfect, actually. The choruses are absolutely a prime place for a little accent to make things pop. If I lug my kit out to a show, and you call out a number like that...I'm certainly not going to play it like Keith Moon, but yeah, I AM going to do more than play closed hi-hat quarter notes on 2 & 4 for the bulk of the song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members P. Wallace Posted August 21, 2011 Members Share Posted August 21, 2011 If the other members are cool with his volume and showboating, then maybe you need to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members theAntihero Posted August 21, 2011 Members Share Posted August 21, 2011 While drummers who dont play for the band are a pain in the ass, i believe that someone who feels hitting cymbals are the sign of a hack to be at best insane and at worst a major pain in the ass. Cymbals are there for accent and every single drummer in the world hits his cymbals for accents. I cant think of a single song that doesnt have a cymbal hit in it somewhere. Honestly IMHO i think this might be more a you problem than a drummer problem, i get that you are doing mostly vocal songs here but im fairly sure that a cymbal hit isnt going to steal your singing spotlight and cause the crowd to projectile vomit. You should talk to him about it or maybe even get him some soft sounding crashes but i seriously think you need to dial down the whole cymbal rage here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Austincowbell Posted August 21, 2011 Members Share Posted August 21, 2011 again, tell him to reign it in or he's fired. He's playing to entertain himself not to make the song better. Be nice but be firm. I put up with this for a year and it almost made me stop enjoying music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members VinylMan Posted August 22, 2011 Author Members Share Posted August 22, 2011 again, tell him to reign it in or he's fired. He's playing to entertain himself not to make the song better. Be nice but be firm. I put up with this for a year and it almost made me stop enjoying music. Well said and that's exactly how I feel. It literally affects my performance. And to the poster stating I'm being overly sensitive to the cymbals you need to read my original post. You don't ACCENT with cymbals every ten seconds in the song. And secondly there's hitting the cymbals and there's hitting them like you're trying to knock em off the stand. And yes every HACK player is spending the whole song crashing cymbals instead of focusing on the song as many here have stated. It ain't the mere use of cymbals that is the problem as I made clear. It's the frequency and manner that is the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RockStringBendr Posted August 22, 2011 Members Share Posted August 22, 2011 It's obvious that he doesn't like your voice and singing and is attempting to save the songs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members theAntihero Posted August 22, 2011 Members Share Posted August 22, 2011 Well said and that's exactly how I feel. It literally affects my performance.And to the poster stating I'm being overly sensitive to the cymbals you need to read my original post. You don't ACCENT with cymbals every ten seconds in the song. And secondly there's hitting the cymbals and there's hitting them like you're trying to knock em off the stand. And yes every HACK player is spending the whole song crashing cymbals instead of focusing on the song as many here have stated. It ain't the mere use of cymbals that is the problem as I made clear. It's the frequency and manner that is the issue. No, you did not make that at all clear, in fact you bitched about 4 whole cymbal hits in a song. The are literally thousands of songs out there with cymbal hits in the 10 sec and under frequency, not Neil Diamond songs but not by these mysterious "hack" drummers that you speak of. Like i stated before i dont think this is a drummer problem, you bassist obviously doesnt think he's wild,crazy and foaming at the mouth hitting cymbal after poor innocent cymbal, i think its more of a you problem. You are basically being totally unreasonable with your point of view, its a live band not some Charades Karaoke set to songs. If you think all drummers that hit cymbals are hacks, you hate every single drummer that has ever existed. Fire the drummer and get a drum machine, then finally you can totally control those dastardly demonic cymbal hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Consume Posted August 22, 2011 Members Share Posted August 22, 2011 If the other members are cool with his volume and showboating, then maybe you need to go. Exactly - the other bands members evidently are fine with him, so I would say the OP needs to start his own thing - and rather than starting a band, he needs to HIRE PEOPLE to back him up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Consume Posted August 22, 2011 Members Share Posted August 22, 2011 It's obvious that he doesn't like your voice and singing and is attempting to save the songs HAhahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Consume Posted August 22, 2011 Members Share Posted August 22, 2011 It ain't the mere use of cymbals that is the problem as I made clear. It's the frequency and manner that is the issue. You didn't make it clear, and you just complained that he hit the cymbals 4 times during a song - that is not excessive.Is this YOUR band? because if it isn't, I have a feeling that you are going to have a hard time "firing" this drummer - especially when the other guys evidently seem fine with him, and it seems like the bass player is encouraging him to play these tom rolls. My suggestion - save some money, and hire musicians to back you up. That will enable you to get exactly what you are looking for in players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Austincowbell Posted August 22, 2011 Members Share Posted August 22, 2011 Secondly he is always crashing the cymbals to the point where it almost defies belief. Hard to believe that so many songs in his mind require so many cymbal crashes; literally at every ten second interval. Even the ballads. I'll admit I'm sensitive to the crashing cymbals as in my mind it's a sign of a hack and I think less is better and only at certain points is the accent necessary if at all. Listen to the songs as recorded and you don't hear a lot of crashing cymbals but my drummer is bashing even when I'm singing. some of you are horrible at reading comprehension... not to mention a lot of band people, especially in inexperienced bands (which I suspect this is) are so preoccupied with their own parts that they don't know the drummer sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kmart Posted August 22, 2011 Members Share Posted August 22, 2011 some of you are horrible at reading comprehension... No, my reading skillz are great. But when someone says 'literally at every ten second interval' (which might not be at all excessive depending on the song itself, ALSO complains about a drummer hitting his crashes FOUR (!!!!) times in an entire song in which that amount seems absolutely within reason, and ALSO admitted they are 'sensitive to crashing cymbals as in my mind it's a sign of a hack' (completely preposterous statement), it makes me wonder about that person's ability to have an objective perspective about it altogether. Now without hearing the band and the drummer in question, it's impossible for any of us to make an accurate assessment, but based on what he's posted so far, it's much more likely for it to be the case that 1+1+1= guy who doesn't actually want live drums in their band, IMO. If the OP has as much trouble communicating to his drummer as he has in getting his point across in this thread...Well, I can understand why there's tension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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