Members mstreck Posted November 22, 2011 Members Share Posted November 22, 2011 As much as we would like to think that a band can be a democracy, it really can't because ONE member can sabotage a song he doesn't want to play in order to get it dropped.Bye-bye! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members vanlatte Posted November 22, 2011 Members Share Posted November 22, 2011 Bye-bye! No kidding, that falls squarely into the category of "Things that will be tolerated only once" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted November 22, 2011 Members Share Posted November 22, 2011 Or one member can be accused of sabotaging a song because when he plays the songs he loves, he gives 110% and sets the bar artifically high. At work and in band we tend to be ranked based on past performance. Hate to say it, but overall the best strategy for staying in a cover band long term is to be mediocre with no standout moments. Some would call that consistency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mstreck Posted November 22, 2011 Members Share Posted November 22, 2011 I'm not saying cover bands are whores- It's just an analogy. I do feel a bit whorish if I'm playing songs I hate for money, no matter how much the customer enjoys it. But I realize that's me and I'll not accuse everyone of the same thing, as we all view it differently and enjoy different aspects of it. Playing covers is legit; I'm only speaking for myself. Consider me 100% whore - hell, we were stuck spinning our wheels until I started stealing everything I could from you guys (songs AND advice). Our setlist is easilly 99% "sell-out" material, although we do tend to rock things up a bit (it's just in our nature as a band). Hell, we do a rocked up version of "Superbass", for cryin' out loud - but the wimmins are lovin' it! Who am I to argue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted November 22, 2011 Members Share Posted November 22, 2011 Meeting your goals is the name of the game, that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted November 22, 2011 Members Share Posted November 22, 2011 I think one thing that separates us out here is that there are no "me too" bands out here it seems.. everyone is trying so hard to be different that nobody is seemingly cliche. My OP was more of a pondering on taking that role and running with it. Well the one thing I get frequently in your posts is that there are not alot of bars that pay very well... and there aren't (I'm guessing) alot of bands that draw that well. Maybe alot of that has to do with each band NOT taking that approach. Believe me... there's something somewhat admirable about 4-5 bandmates who come together and say... regardless what the audience wants, we have standard of song material in which we'll choose to play that satisfies us... and that alone is important to enjoying our time performing together. The catch is... without significant draw, pay and opportunities will always remain at the level the crowd supports. There's a younger agency band from your neck of the woods that plays most of those 'don't want to play what everyone else is playing'... but they stand out in thire presentation and the way they deliver the material. And they are making a $killing$ at it regionally. Although I imagine that there aren't alot of local opportunities at that level. The economy is tough in PA these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted November 22, 2011 Members Share Posted November 22, 2011 It could also have to do with the lack of a coherent "night life" in a certain demographic. Police pressure, noise ordinances, etc. Louisville has that problem. But there are pockets of resistance where the typical rules don't apply. Joints like the Hideaway and Gerstles can and do host some pretty eclectic stuff by "typical" cover band standards. Take a typical cover band in there and watch the "hipsters" or whatever hit the door fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted November 22, 2011 Members Share Posted November 22, 2011 As much as we would like to think that a band can be a democracy, it really can't because ONE member can sabotage a song he doesn't want to play in order to get it dropped.Um... in a democracy it's majority rule right? How can one member sabotage a song if he is continually out voted? Even in a trio the dissenter loses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted November 22, 2011 Members Share Posted November 22, 2011 Um... in a democracy it's majority rule right? How can one member sabotage a song if he is continually out voted? Even in a trio the dissenter loses. I think he meant by phoning it in when they play it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members New Trail Posted November 22, 2011 Members Share Posted November 22, 2011 ....Happy Turkey Day y'all. Same 2 ya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mstreck Posted November 22, 2011 Members Share Posted November 22, 2011 Um... in a democracy it's majority rule right? How can one member sabotage a song if he is continually out voted? Even in a trio the dissenter loses. He means he'll make it sound like ass - we had someone like that. Once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kramerguy Posted November 22, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 22, 2011 Well the one thing I get frequently in your posts is that there are not alot of bars that pay very well... and there aren't (I'm guessing) alot of bands that draw that well. Maybe alot of that has to do with each band NOT taking that approach. Believe me... there's something somewhat admirable about 4-5 bandmates who come together and say... regardless what the audience wants, we have standard of song material in which we'll choose to play that satisfies us... and that alone is important to enjoying our time performing together. The catch is... without significant draw, pay and opportunities will always remain at the level the crowd supports. There's a younger agency band from your neck of the woods that plays most of those 'don't want to play what everyone else is playing'... but they stand out in thire presentation and the way they deliver the material. And they are making a $killing$ at it regionally. Although I imagine that there aren't alot of local opportunities at that level. The economy is tough in PA these days. oh, there's more than one band doing it.. crystal rocks has been doing it since the mid-80's, mr green jeans kills em, several others when you get closer to delco and philly.. but yeah, in my specific county, I don't think anyone is really making anything happen... unless you know something I dont Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted November 22, 2011 Members Share Posted November 22, 2011 oh, there's more than one band doing it.. crystal rocks has been doing it since the mid-80's, mr green jeans kills em, several others when you get closer to delco and philly.. but yeah, in my specific county, I don't think anyone is really making anything happen... unless you know something I dont I'm curious... only because I know the area from afar... do any of those agency level bands play in your neck of the woods (I'm guessing Reading/Potstown?). That will tell you what the market is like and what the bars are willing to bear (in terms of pay). Though we've never had agency influence here and we were able to double the pay ceiling over several years.... but that was due entirely to years of consistent head count. Crystal Rocks has been around for decades... UUU has reunited. Mr. Green Jeans are still together. WOW! Lima Bean Riot I'm not sure is still around... but the band I was refering too is GG-Gadget. They are really an anomaly. They have a lot invested at that level... and of course, they're kids really. Still they are from your backyard. I'm wondering if they play local. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted November 22, 2011 Members Share Posted November 22, 2011 I think he meant by phoning it in when they play it. I see... that's grounds for {censored}ing with the business. His departure from this band would be swift, and brutal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SeniorBlues Posted November 22, 2011 Members Share Posted November 22, 2011 I see... that's grounds for {censored}ing with the business. His departure from this band would be swift, and brutal. I don't think it's always obvious or even intentional. If you don't like it, you don't work at it much to iron out the rough spots. "Gee fellas, this is the best I can do." Conversely, you might put in overtime to work on something you really like. You want to make sure that the song that otherwise may not be an obvious hit at the next gig goes over well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mstreck Posted November 23, 2011 Members Share Posted November 23, 2011 I don't think it's always obvious or even intentional. If you don't like it, you don't work at it much to iron out the rough spots. "Gee fellas, this is the best I can do."Conversely, you might put in overtime to work on something you really like. You want to make sure that the song that otherwise may not be an obvious hit at the next gig goes over well. I can see that for a weekend-warrior cover band that doesn't really give a crap. But a band that sinks a ton of money into itself - a true business - can't be doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wardjames Posted November 23, 2011 Members Share Posted November 23, 2011 Um... in a democracy it's majority rule right? How can one member sabotage a song if he is continually out voted? Even in a trio the dissenter loses. In our case, the issue is constant complaining. Imagine if after everytime you play a song in rehearsal said member goes "god I hate that song". It wears on you after awhile. And yes, I am going to have a come to Jesus talk with said member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kramerguy Posted November 23, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 23, 2011 I'm curious... only because I know the area from afar... do any of those agency level bands play in your neck of the woods (I'm guessing Reading/Potstown?). That will tell you what the market is like and what the bars are willing to bear (in terms of pay). Though we've never had agency influence here and we were able to double the pay ceiling over several years.... but that was due entirely to years of consistent head count. Crystal Rocks has been around for decades... UUU has reunited. Mr. Green Jeans are still together. WOW! Lima Bean Riot I'm not sure is still around... but the band I was refering too is GG-Gadget. They are really an anomaly. They have a lot invested at that level... and of course, they're kids really. Still they are from your backyard. I'm wondering if they play local. yeah I forgot about GGG.. they are one of the big ones, and while they do come out this way, they more often play closer to philly and do the "shore stints"..while those bands with representation DO come out this way, the places they play are typically places that ONLY hire bands with representation, like Reverb (formerly club 1402), Brownies Ardmore, PC Pub, and Trappe Tavern. Two of those are on the "Main Line" if you are familiar with the area.Those places do not book bands that aren't signed with a booking agency. We know we gotta book closer to Philly, but then we have zero following once we leave the 3-county area that we normally perform in. Any club with a built-in crowd wont book us without an agent.. and the wheel goes round and round... it feels like a catch-22 no matter what we do.Which is part of what lead me to create this thread- the simple idea that maybe we need to be more "mainstream" and focus on pleasing that 90% in the crowd rather than focusing on pleasing ourselves. Like I said, we're all kind of moving in that direction already, but it could certainly move faster Oh, to specifically answer-Pottstown, no bars big enuff to support more than a small local or garage band. There is a venue called sunnybrook, and national acts do play there, but it's more of a catering/special event venue, no bar or anything, similar to a music hall. I've never known a local or even regional band like GGG play there, seen crap like elvis tribue bands and stuff.. so it's like an old-folks home haha.Reading - there's a couple of A-clubs like BLDG 24, and Reverb is probably a B-club. GGG and CR generally play both. They do well. I know the sound guy at reverb and he told me there is zero built in crowd.. even acts like GGG struggle to get people in there.. and it's notable that it's a rather scary side of town. Most of the A-clubs start popping up once you go east of Pottstown about 15 miles and cross into and beyond the main line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted November 23, 2011 Members Share Posted November 23, 2011 yeah I forgot about GGG.. they are one of the big ones, and while they do come out this way, they more often play closer to philly and do the "shore stints".. while those bands with representation DO come out this way, the places they play are typically places that ONLY hire bands with representation, like Reverb (formerly club 1402), Brownies Ardmore, PC Pub, and Trappe Tavern. Two of those are on the "Main Line" if you are familiar with the area. Those places do not book bands that aren't signed with a booking agency. We know we gotta book closer to Philly, but then we have zero following once we leave the 3-county area that we normally perform in. Any club with a built-in crowd wont book us without an agent.. and the wheel goes round and round... it feels like a catch-22 no matter what we do. Which is part of what lead me to create this thread- the simple idea that maybe we need to be more "mainstream" and focus on pleasing that 90% in the crowd rather than focusing on pleasing ourselves. Like I said, we're all kind of moving in that direction already, but it could certainly move faster Oh, to specifically answer- Pottstown, no bars big enuff to support more than a small local or garage band. There is a venue called sunnybrook, and national acts do play there, but it's more of a catering/special event venue, no bar or anything, similar to a music hall. I've never known a local or even regional band like GGG play there, seen crap like elvis tribue bands and stuff.. so it's like an old-folks home haha. Reading - there's a couple of A-clubs like BLDG 24, and Reverb is probably a B-club. GGG and CR generally play both. They do well. I know the sound guy at reverb and he told me there is zero built in crowd.. even acts like GGG struggle to get people in there.. and it's notable that it's a rather scary side of town. Most of the A-clubs start popping up once you go east of Pottstown about 15 miles and cross into and beyond the main line. You're on the right track with the setlist stuff... it's the reason why I bring up the agency acts. Again, my area is similar to yours.... semi rural, close proximity to a metro area (NYC-90 miles away), bars dependent on bands with followings. When we formed our idea was to take that agency band experience and bring it to a $400 band startup. Alot of blood sweat and tears went into it (I was 32 and we averaged in age 28-36) but I remember those gigs... having to bring a 'bank' and charge off the door... splitting $400-6 ways, even booking double band events. None of the bars in my area had a built in crowd. Many towns are bedroom communities... people have to get up at 5am to commute more than 1 hr to work every day. Bars were not destinations, therefore we had to make the band the 'destination'. And it took years of work... four years to be exact, to break the $1000 mark and get agency representation outside the area. So we broke that Catch 22 by building that following at home first. As we improved so did the local band scene... bars that never consider bands before started booking. Clubs they never invested in promotions, or even lights and sound reconsidered. Now 10 years later we have a semi-thriving, yet localized band scene. It's become so good that some of those 'agency bands' are looking into the area to consider booking. They key in all our progression was playing accessible music. At the time we formed every band in the area played music they thought was cool. They charged $300-400 and drank $180. They followings were their family, friends and co-workers, Many of the bands were Nu-metal, alt rock at the time... dance music, party rock, top 40... well that was for pussies right? We became the exception. We stripped down songs, chopped out the forgettable parts, merged songs together, worked on flow. I remember the first medley transition we ever worked on... I think it was 'The Outfield into American Girl into 'Swing Swing'... (that will tell you around the time we formed 2002-03)... almost immediately women took notice. And once they started coming out, and bringing their friends, everything took off from there. Again, it helped immensely that we had a good looking, metro sexual front guy that was comfortable attacking girl and guy parts... but if you look at the key to every band we aforementioned...the common denominator is appealing to the women in the audience. Right?... these are not bands playing extended guitar solos... picking a Rush song because it's their passion or playing EVH because they worked so hard to nail that tone. These are bands that play songs that appeal to the ladies vs guys on a 15:1 ratio. Where woman are, men will follow. I'm not suggesting you pussify your band in a 180 turnaround... but the songs are really that simple way of connecting with that audience... performing them in a convincing and entertaining way... well that's your way of staying memorable, at least well into Monday morning after they remember what a fun weekend they had. Your band can balance both popular songs and personal pleasures... but you have to keep the scales balanced. I'm sure you have a fair amount of 20 years olds who head to Philly every weekend... avoid the local rooms like the plague. We made our hit with stay at home moms... that was like the first group of people that seemed to come out and enjoy what we were doing. Their one Friday night per month turned into two... sometimes three (hey, I didn't say that these were healthy marriages). But that was our connection, what helped us take off, get noticed, provide some leverage with bar owners. But it all started with the songs.... one by one as we began to shed our personal favorites, songs we held onto because of pride, the closer we inched toward becoming a 'working cover band'. Now... there isn't a single song in our setlist that I personally [edited:]'listen to' (well maybe 'Killing In The Name') but that's fine... I accept that. We agreed long ago that we wanted this band to be popular, not fulfilling our personal tastes. Now I imagine your band can balance both... just remember it's the popular choices that get people in the door. Hopefully you can keep their attention with personal selections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Funkwire Posted November 23, 2011 Members Share Posted November 23, 2011 But it all started with the songs.... one by one as we began to shed our personal favorites, songs we held onto because of pride, the closer we inched toward becoming a 'working cover band'. Now... there isn't a single song in our setlist that I personally enjoy playing (well maybe 'Killing In The Name') but that's fine... I accept that. We agreed long ago that we wanted this band to be popular, not fulfilling our personal tastes. I agree with the major points in your post, especially the part about appealing to women over men...but, really? You don't enjoy playing ANYTHING in your list? I freely admit that if any of the songs we play came on the radio, I would change the station in a nanosecond. But I can still enjoy playing them, if only for the reaction they engender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted November 23, 2011 Members Share Posted November 23, 2011 So I was thinking, why not go against the current, drop the smug purist attitude, totally sell out (since that's against the status quo, right?) and just play what works all night? Not saying to guess at what new hot song might catch or not, but sticking with only the best of the best, the cheesiest of the cheese.. Ummm... guess you haven't look at my band's songlist.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted November 23, 2011 Members Share Posted November 23, 2011 I agree with the major points in your post, especially the part about appealing to women over men...but, really? You don't enjoy playing ANYTHING in your list?I freely admit that if any of the songs we play came on the radio, I would change the station in a nanosecond. But I can still enjoy playing them, if only for the reaction they engender. You are correct... I enjoy playing them all... and that has everything to do with the audience reaction and not my personal tastes or musical preferences. In fact some I enjoy playing just for the sheer challenge of pulling it off... like nailing the clav line in 'Jungle Boogie'... yet these are not songs I would listen to or play along to at home. It's simply 'work'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kmart Posted November 23, 2011 Members Share Posted November 23, 2011 You are correct... I enjoy playing them all... and that has everything to do with the audience reaction and not my personal tastes or musical preferences. In fact some I enjoy playing just for the sheer challenge of pulling it off... like nailing the clav line in 'Jungle Boogie'... yet these are not songs I would listen to or play along to at home. It's simply 'work'. I honestly could not do that, not matter how much cake I was pulling down doing so, unless I had some other playing outlet on the side that did perform songs I personally liked. Guess I'll consider myself lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted November 23, 2011 Members Share Posted November 23, 2011 I honestly could not do that, not matter how much cake I was pulling down doing so, unless I had some other playing outlet on the side that did perform songs I personally liked. Guess I'll consider myself lucky. Differ't strokes... The 'cake' is great... all you can eat. And the memories and experience are fantastic. And I'm not forced to choose between job/career or pleasure/music, band/family. I find balance in all. I guess I consider that 'lucky'. The only downside is really not having that time for a side project or two... but I'm fine with that at this stage. I have the rest of my life to play songs I personally like... no doubt to much smaller audiences (I'm into ambient/progressive). When I've aged out of this (and I will) I'll have more time to devote to my passions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members vanlatte Posted November 23, 2011 Members Share Posted November 23, 2011 Where woman are, men will follow. This entire topic can be summed up in this one sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.