The "dont want to play what everyone else is playing" Circular logic

[Vito Corleone]

This entire topic can be summed up in this one sentence.

 

 

there's a lot of topics that can be summed up with that sentence...

[BlueStrat]

Differ't strokes... The 'cake' is great... all you can eat. And the memories and experience are fantastic. And I'm not forced to choose between job/career or pleasure/music, band/family. I find balance in all. I guess I consider that 'lucky'. The only downside is really not having that time for a side project or two... but I'm fine with that at this stage. I have the rest of my life to play songs I personally like... no doubt to much smaller audiences (I'm into ambient/progressive). When I've aged out of this (and I will) I'll have more time to devote to my passions.

 

It all goes back to the old thing I mentioned before about there being two basic reasons people play in bands. For one person, the band is the object, and the songs are the means to an end. The payoff is in presenting a good product that creates a party for everyone and packs the dancefloor and everyone has a great time, with the band earning good dough in the process. The songs selected are the means to that end. These types of guys have little problem playing anything that will get the band gigs and a crowd. It's all good to them.

 

For another person, the music is the object, and the band is the means. It can be cover music that showcases the talents of the musicians, or it can be an original band, or a mix of both. The point is, the band is not the end in itself, it's the music, and song selection is based more around reflecting the likes and personalities of the players. For this type of player, bands are often the vehicle by which his original songs reach an audience. covers selected often reflect the style of original music the players write.

 

Most bands are a combination of the two types of one degree or another. The problems arise when there are both types of players in one band. I'm more a type 2, and I left a very good band in the late 90s (along with my drummer) because the rest of the guys were type 1s and we just couldn't agree on much. One isn't better than another, just a lot different. When I finally figured this simple concept out, it made putting bands together a whole lot easier.

[StratGuy22]

We Do a lot a country, a lot of classic rock, and a bit of some newer stuff. We are there to entertain, not amaze everyone by playing The Attitude Song. We mix it up on the fly, depending on what's working that night. Country music is packing the dance floor? Fine, play more! Rock? Keep it coming.

 

Hell, we even do Paradise by the Dashboard light & Timewarp. I'd love to be in a Foo Fighters/weezer tribute band, but I like a packed dance floor, lots of gigs and some cash in the jeans at the end of the night.

 

We don't do BEG, we do SWA/that kid rock one, and mustang Sally is ALWAYS a crowd pleaser.

 

 

That's why we're there, to please the crowd.

 

 

That's job number one. They love Mustang Sally, works for me.

 

Hell, I'll stand on a street corner and bang a garbage can lid with a stick for $400/night.

 

[pickinatit]

One thing the 4 of us agree on is not to play some of the "standards" when there are other suitable choices to fill the same demographic. We dont do SWA, we play Gimme 3 Steps, as an example. We may be falling into the line of thinking you are talking about OP as far as trying to be a tad different than other bands. Our "obscure" songs are all dancable which we all agree should be the case. If you play an obscure song that wont get people dancing, whats the point of playing it when we are there to entertain?

 

 

I don't see a big difference between playing "Give Me Three Steps" and playing SWA. They're both more or less in the standards category, aren't they? Make it "Swamp Music" or "That Smell" or "What's Your Name" and you're starting to wander off of the main track IMO.

[pickinatit]

As much as we would like to think that a band can be a democracy, it really can't because ONE member can sabotage a song he doesn't want to play in order to get it dropped.

 

 

Do you guys really run into many musicians that are petty enough to do that?

[Vito Corleone]

Do you guys really run into many musicians that are petty enough to do that?

 

 

Not since I was 16.

[Vito Corleone]

Not since I was 16.

 

 

Actually that's not entirely true. A few years ago I was playing with a drummer who would play songs he didn't like with less energy and fire than the stuff he did like. He wasn't in the band long enough for me to get upset enough about it to address it directly, and I never figured out whether he was doing it on purpose or not, but he certainly wasn't the most mature musician I've ever worked with...

[SeniorBlues]

It all goes back to the old thing I mentioned before about there being two basic reasons people play in bands. For one person, the band is the object, and the songs are the means to an end. The payoff is in presenting a good product that creates a party for everyone and packs the dancefloor and everyone has a great time, with the band earning good dough in the process. The songs selected are the means to that end. These types of guys have little problem playing anything that will get the band gigs and a crowd. It's all good to them. For another person, the music is the object, and the band is the means. It can be cover music that showcases the talents of the musicians, or it can be an original band, or a mix of both. The point is, the band is not the end in itself, it's the music, and song selection is based more around reflecting the likes and personalities of the players. For this type of player, bands are often the vehicle by which his original songs reach an audience. covers selected often reflect the style of original music the players write. Most bands are a combination of the two types of one degree or another. The problems arise when there are both types of players in one band. I'm more a type 2, and I left a very good band in the late 90s (along with my drummer) because the rest of the guys were type 1s and we just couldn't agree on much. One isn't better than another, just a lot different. When I finally figured this simple concept out, it made putting bands together a whole lot easier.

 

 

I think type one is easier to pull off because the goals are very specific . . . if they ain't dancin', it's gone.

 

Type two is a lot harder because the subcategories of music that anyone might like to focus on seem endless, especially as you get older. It's also harder because the standards for musicianship tend to go up . . . If it sounds OK at best and you're entertaining the crowd and getting paid, that's more likely to work compared to your pet project that is merely OK and shows no signs of getting better.

 

I agree about the problems of mixing the two types in the same band, although unless you all want to stay in the basement - fine by me with the right guys - you've got to have some agreed upon marketing strategy.

[Vito Corleone]

I think type one is easier to pull off because the goals are very specific . . . if they ain't dancin', it's gone. Type two is a lot harder because the subcategories of music that anyone might like to focus on seem endless, especially as you get older. It's also harder because the standards for musicianship tend to go up . . . If it sounds OK at best and you're entertaining the crowd and getting paid, that's more likely to work compared to your pet project that is merely OK and shows no signs of getting better. I agree about the problems of mixing the two types in the same band, although unless you all want to stay in the basement - fine by me with the right guys - you've got to have some agreed upon marketing strategy.

 

 

I can agree that type one is probably easier but not necessarily for the same reasons. Musicianship shouldn't have anything to do with it. If you don't have a high standard of musicianship in either "type" of band, the band is never going to be better than average.

 

But I think type one can be easier for two reasons: A) it not that the goals are more specific, it's just that they are more business-oriented and aren't personal. Therefore, you don't have to spend as much time trying to find people who either all have the same dream songlist in mind or are willing to put their personal preferences aside for the goals of one or two members. It's easier to get everyone all on the same page when the page isn't written from either one members heart or isn't some mish-mash of "common likes".

 

B) type one can be easier because it puts the needs of the audience right into the goals at the outset. The problem I see so often with bands that claim they don't really care what the audience thinks is that they actually do care and often end up being continually frustrated that the audience isn't digging their pet project band as much as they are themselves.

[SeniorBlues]

Musicianship shouldn't have anything to do with it. If you don't have a high standard of musicianship in either "type" of band, the band is never going to be better than average.

 

 

The idea is to form a band that meets its agreed upon goals. I think most guys are happy to be in an average band. Nothing wrong with that.

 

There are boatloads of "average" bands with gigs on the books looking for keyboard players. I just can't get excited about the musical quality, regardless of what songs they're playing. I think most of them are really type one guys with somewhat lower standards and expectations than yours. It seems to work for them.

[callous]

We HAVE banished 'Sweet Home Alabama' (I assume that's what SWA means?), 'Brown-Eyed Girl', and 'Mustang Sally' to the "only when requested by a hot-looking woman" pile. Yes, they go over. But you can play those songs every weekend to appreciative audiences and never do anything to set yourself apart from everybody else on the circuit.

 

 

Sure you can. It's all in how you do it.

[TIMKEYS]

The idea is to form a band that meets its agreed upon goals. I think most guys are happy to be in an average band. Nothing wrong with that. There are boatloads of "average" bands with gigs on the books looking for keyboard players. I just can't get excited about the musical quality, regardless of what songs they're playing. I think most of them are really type one guys with somewhat lower standards and expectations than yours. It seems to work for them.

 

 

In a lot of ways we are just an average band ,, in some ways we are a great band. We play what people want to hear and sometimes we play what we want to play. The more we gig the better the band gets. If you are going to have a band you need to keep it easy going enough to keep the band together. If you choke the fun factor out of it, its not going to last long as a band.

[Vito Corleone]

 

The idea is to form a band that meets its agreed upon goals.

 

Agreed. My point is that it's easier for the type one bands to agree upon goals because many of the goals are outside the personal preferences of the musicians. Less {censored} to argue about.

 

 

There are boatloads of "average" bands with gigs on the books looking for keyboard players. I just can't get excited about the musical quality, regardless of what songs they're playing. I think most of them are really type one guys with somewhat lower standards and expectations than yours. It seems to work for them.

 

 

Well, there are plenty of type two bands with lower standards and expectations as well. Whether that works for them personally or not, I dunno. But I don't see a higher degree of musicianship in one type of band over the other, and I see higher degrees of musicianship leading to greater success in both types of bands.

 

In fact, I could easily make the argument that I see a LOWER degree of musicianship in type two bands because if you're not concerned about the audience response, how often you gig, or how much money you make then the incentive to put on a top notch performance every night may not always be that high. Once you get in the circuits where your pay is based on your performance and you're competing with other bands for gigs, you've got "bring it" performance-wise at a high level pretty regularly.

 

But while I could make that argument, common sense and experience tells me that the overall percentage of "high musicianship" bands is probably just about the same across both 'types'.

[Vito Corleone]

Sure you can. It's all in how you do it.

 

[SeniorBlues]

 

If you choke the fun factor out of it, its not going to last long as a band.

 

 

Maybe the most challenging part of keeping a band together is the fact that the primary source of "fun" is often different for each member.

[TIMKEYS]

Maybe the most challenging part of keeping a band together is the fact that the primary source of "fun" is often different for each member.

 

 

Yup so you kick the square wheels to the curb and the band played on. Nothing is more frusterating in a band than people who are trying to form a big deal band with a bunch of guys that are not ready to be out of the basement. If you are that good ,, just go find a seat in a top band thats working. The problem is that most of the guys who end up in the revolving door start up band in the basement cant go get a gig with a top working band. Its a catch 22 that you can only break by getting into a average working band and get to be a known player in your market and then jump to a better band. Just because you feel you are a top player ,,, doesnt mean much in the basement. Now if you are out in the market place playing and guys say ,, lets nab this drummer ,, he is the best guy in that band and we can attract him. No one is going to see you in the basment. Its called paying the dues.. and if you have been out of the game and all your runnin buds are long gone you are nowheres' ville no matter how good you are.

[SeniorBlues]

 

Yup so you kick the square wheels to the curb and the band played on. Nothing is more frusterating in a band than people who are trying to form a big deal band with a bunch of guys that are not ready to be out of the basement. If you are that good ,, just go find a seat in a top band thats working. The problem is that most of the guys who end up in the revolving door start up band in the basement cant go get a gig with a top working band. Its a catch 22 that you can only break by getting into a average working band and get to be a known player in your market and then jump to a better band. Just because you feel you are a top player ,,, doesnt mean much in the basement. Now if you are out in the market place playing and guys say ,, lets nab this drummer ,, he is the best guy in that band and we can attract him. No one is going to see you in the basment. Its called paying the dues.. and if you have been out of the game and all your runnin buds are long gone you are nowheres' ville no matter how good you are.

 

 

That may work in a small market when you're trying to get back into it at 50. Not when you're 64 and interested in music that isn't part of most guys' roots. I'm well aware that I'm dealing with long odds. Maybe too long and it won't happen. So be it.

[Vito Corleone]

 

That may work in a small market when you're trying to get back into it at 50. Not when you're 64 and interested in music that isn't part of most guys' roots. I'm well aware that I'm dealing with long odds. Maybe too long and it won't happen. So be it.

 

 

I'm missing something here. You live in a big city. I have a hard time imagining it would be THAT hard to find a couple of other old cats interested in 60s/70s R&B who want to just get together and jam in the basement a couple of nights a week. I know a ton of old guys in even my small area who want to play that stuff. They might be frustrated that the gigs aren't what they used to be a decade or two ago for that music, but they still want to play it and do. And they're always looking for good keyboard players.

 

OTHO, I don't really think age is a barrier to getting into a good working band. Especially the corporate level stuff where there's a lot of older dudes and a lot of 60/70s R&B. You just have to, like Tim suggests, get your name out there.

 

And while I know it isn't your bag, the keyboard player in one of the top dance/party/corp bands in my area--mostly made up of players between 25-45--is probably much closer to your age than mine. So age really shouldn't even be a barrier in THAT market.

[TIMKEYS]

I'm missing something here. You live in a big city. I have a hard time imagining it would be THAT hard to find a couple of other old cats interested in 60s/70s R&B who want to just get together and jam in the basement a couple of nights a week. I know a ton of old guys in even my small area who want to play that stuff. They might be frustrated that the gigs aren't what they used to be a decade or two ago for that music, but they still want to play it and do. And they're always looking for good keyboard players. OTHO, I don't really think age is a barrier to getting into a good working band. Especially the corporate level stuff where there's a lot of older dudes and a lot of 60/70s R&B. You just have to, like Tim suggests, get your name out there. And while I know it isn't your bag, the keyboard player in one of the top dance/party/corp bands in my area--mostly made up of players between 25-45--is probably much closer to your age than mine. So age really shouldn't even be a barrier in THAT market.

 

 

Its not ,, flexablity and being easy going is the key to getting in a decent band with some good band mates. I got back in at 58. I had to give up the R&B thing for country and original stuff ,, but I am playing with some of the best players down here. Its not your usual band model ,, but its working for the guys in the band. We have some sweet stuff on the books for next year and I am sure we will still play the home dig for gumbo to keep the band in the public eye. Thats how you move up the feeding chain.. being out playing and visiable to the market place.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Its not ,, flexablity and being easy going is the key to getting in a decent band with some good band mates. I got back in at 58. I had to give up the R&B thing for country and original stuff ,, but I am playing with some of the best players down here. Its not your usual band model ,, but its working for the guys in the band. We have some sweet stuff on the books for next year and I am sure we will still play the home dig for gumbo to keep the band in the public eye. Thats how you move up the feeding chain.. being out playing and visiable to the market place.

 

 

And one thing about being a keyboard player---there HAS to be fewer out-of-work keyboard players than any other position. Supply and demand is in our favor.

[TIMKEYS]

And one thing about being a keyboard player---there HAS to be fewer out-of-work keyboard players than any other position. Supply and demand is in our favor.

 

 

yup this is true. Its a good instrument to know how to play.

[SeniorBlues]

 

I'm missing something here. You live in a big city. I have a hard time imagining it would be THAT hard to find a couple of other old cats interested in 60s/70s R&B who want to just get together and jam in the basement a couple of nights a week. I know a ton of old guys in even my small area who want to play that stuff. They might be frustrated that the gigs aren't what they used to be a decade or two ago for that music, but they still want to play it and do. And they're always looking for good keyboard players. OTHO, I don't really think age is a barrier to getting into a good working band. Especially the corporate level stuff where there's a lot of older dudes and a lot of 60/70s R&B. You just have to, like Tim suggests, get your name out there. And while I know it isn't your bag, the keyboard player in one of the top dance/party/corp bands in my area--mostly made up of players between 25-45--is probably much closer to your age than mine. So age really shouldn't even be a barrier in THAT market.

 

 

There's an agency here that was trying to complete the lineup for a corp band recently. They needed a keyboard. I linked to my site, but never heard back, despite a lot of favorable responses (including here.) I think it was age.

 

You would think 60s/70s R&B would be big here. It is, to some extent, but not played by old white guys. I've told you about my experiences with the eight-piece . . . they're all remarkably similar.

 

No offense, guys, but I really wouldn't want to play in your bands. Nothing personal. Tim, you mentioned flexibility, and you're absolutely right.

 

I'm not. . . . . well I think I am, but it's still a narrow range in the scheme of things.

[MickeyKeys]

 

Not since I was 16.

 

 

Perpetually, it seems . . .

 

We had a bass player who was NOTORIOUS for this. Of course I learned this in the months after I joined. If he didn't approve of one, he mysteriously never managed to sync with the drummer and pointed the finger at him (the rest of us knew the truth). Eventually the song would get dropped.

 

Another thing he was great at doing was misdirection - pointing out someone else's minor screwups to divert everyone's attention from his bigger ones. If he knew he was screwing one up (despite all the charts he'd taped to the floor), he'd give another band member the fish-eye and shake his head disgustedly for the rest of the set.

 

First words out of his mouth on the break would be (for example):

 

"did you hear the clam Mike pulled on the organ intro to 'Crocodile Rock'?"

 

Shoot, never mind the fact that my mistake was a one-note finger-fart, but you forgot the progression during the whole second verse and took all the bottom out of it when you stopped/faked playing that pretty Warwick . . . but if you're lucky no one's thinking about THAT now.

 

Don't know why we put up with it.

Maybe because he he was technically one of the founding fathers and owned the domain name.

 

Maybe it was inertia, and some fear among the others that we would not be able to find a good replacement quickly enough.

 

Thirteen months ago he said "I quit" one too many times and we decided to take him up on it.

 

Instead of letting him "play out his notice" and worm his way back in yet again, we cut the cord.

 

Found a better replacement in a week who can think on his feet, and will play Old Man River in reggae style as long as the check's good.

 

Bought out the domain name after a bit of haggling, and moved on.

[Vito Corleone]

 

There's an agency here that was trying to complete the lineup for a corp band recently. They needed a keyboard. I linked to my site, but never heard back, despite a lot of favorable responses (including here.) I think it was age.

 

 

Maybe. But more likely they just went with some guy who was more of a known quantity for the agency. Not that different than applying for any other job to that degree.

 

You might want to try putting together a personal promo pak and hitting the agencies. Tell them your story--that you haven't done it for awhile but you've got the chops, the work ethic, etc. If agencies are looking for players it's most likely going to be to fill a spot in an existing band or putting together a project for a gig they need to fill. Either way they need players that can be ready to go quickly and they won't want to waste time with guys they aren't sure can learn the material and be ready to go fast. So you gotta go out there and sell yourself in that regard.

 

But, yeah...if I was in your shoes that's probably exactly what I'd do: hit up the agencies and see if they know any bands looking for R&B keyboard players. Worse they can do is say "no". Again, at least you're a keyboard player. They probably have STACKS of guitarists promo paks filling the round file.....

[MickeyKeys]

yup this is true. Its a good instrument to know how to play.

 

 

 

... heh, heh, heh.