Behringer customer support...

[Zeromus-X]

All I've heard is nightmare stories about Behringer's support. Well, I've got a DMX light controller by 'em, because it was the only thing I could realistically afford to run the lights I've got. It's been working great for about a month, and now all of a sudden the master programming fader -- the one that controls the maximum intensity of every channel during programming -- doesn't work. It appears to be locked in at 50%, regardless of where you move the slider. So it plays back what I've recorded fine, unfortunately I've only got half the show recorded!!

 

So I called up Behringer, and got a person immediately -- no recording at all. Told them what was going on, and they walked me through the master reset operation. That didn't do anything, so I was transferred to someone in the returns department. I wasn't on hold for ten seconds before someone picked up. The show that I'm programming these for is in two weeks, and I told them I was in a really big hurry. He told me that normally I'd have to send the unit back to Behringer (Washington), completely across the country, where they'd send it to a repair place (Pennsylvania, completely across the country), where it'd be sent back to me. That'd obviously take quite some additional time. So he gave me the number and address of the repair place in PA, and said to write the RMA number on the box and just send it straight there. As well, if I wanted to ship it overnight, they'd reimburse me for half of the shipping price (if I shipped it ground they'd reimburse me for the whole thing). They said no guarantees it'd get done before the show, it just depends how busy the repair place is, but they'll note it on the account.

 

I cannot complain one bit about this; that's better customer support than I've received from any manufacturer I've ever dealt with, period.

 

I wonder if they've improved quite a bit or if this was just a rarity??

[Tommy Tune]

I dunno but I'd be impressed with that.

[Craig Vecchione]

I'd say don't comment until you've got the repaired unit back in your hands.

[Stingray5]

Originally posted by Craigv I'd say don't comment until you've got the repaired unit back in your hands.

Still not a believer ?

[abzurd]

There IS the little matter of it breaking within a month. You are relying on the gear, but it's not functional, therefore not reliable, and therefore not a good value at any price. Not having a light controller for a big show is FREE if you don't buy one in the first place. Now that's affordable!

 

Service stories good or bad, are still predicated on the fact you needed service support in the first place. THAT is the reason there are so many comments about Behringer service.

 

All, that said I hope it all works out for you.

[tlbonehead]

I am wondering also if they are maybe trying to change their bad rep concerning this. I bought a Behringer UB2442 over a year ago.(wish it was a little higher priced and better quality,but it has the features I really want) Anyway,the first one didn't work right to begin with so I sent it back and received a new one. Two channels went dead within a couple months and then at about five months the power supply died. I called Behr support and they gave me a repair number and the name of my area repair techs(GOOD GUYS in St Paul)I sent it off and got it back within 10 days and Behr paid shipping both ways. Then at about 11 months,the aux returns started making a hideous noise so I called Behr service again. They decided that since I had a lot of trouble with the board that they would send me a new model instead of having me send this one in again,which they did. Well,I'm still stuck with a Behr board but I do think that the service end could have been a lot worse.

[Unalaska]

Condor Electronics here in freemont (Seattle) does 100% of their warranty repair now. They have an office in Edmonds (I think, or it was Mukilteo, next to Rane). Even so I'm still leary about thier gear. I have had great luck with everything I bought but I only bought because I did a lot of research and talking to people who owned that model specifically.

 

Even so things can crap out. I prolly have 5 EQ's, couple of 4 channel comps, a 2 channel (not used at all right now), and a headphone amp. Oh yeah, bought some mics for practice, all 4 sound realy good actually and are holding up well after 3 months. Then again they could crap out.

 

So I guess the planets must have alligned for me on the Behr gear, but that's for now. I'd lik to get a presonuc ACP88 instead o the comps. Replace the EQ's with Rane ME60's or DBX 1231's. The headphone amp is the best thing ever though, hands down the coolest widget.

 

pete

[abzurd]

What I want to know is how can Behringer possibly stay in business with, what seems to be, a very high problem rate. They have to staff quite the customer support site (or outsource, but still), pay shipping, pay a 3rd party to repair, pay for the replacement parts, then pay to ship it back. THEN 3 months later do it all over again with the same unit.

 

It could be that the stuff is so cheap and plentiful that everyone owns some of the gear and the fault rate really isn't any higher than other MI gear. Also, after the warranty is expired they are off the hook. The gear either gets thrown away or repaired at owners expense. Half the time it's cheaper to just buy a new Behringer unit at which point the company makes more money off of a repeat customer.

 

Kinda like rechargeable batteries, they are cheaper in the long run, but cost more up front. People would rather spend less over and over than pony up more once. (I'm not speaking to use in wireless for pro-audio, but more conceptually).

[el_virto]

As far as the "how are they staying in business"..

 

I don't own anything behringer..might soon...but whatever..

Thing to keep in mind with the problem rate..it's sure a lot higher than we hear about other companies..but we don't really hear a lot from the guys using it with no problems in the basement. Sure there's the occasional "I love my B and there's nothing you can do to tell me it's not a Neve" troll...but keep in mind with the prices on these units..how many must be moving. One of our largest local stores carries A&H, Mackie, the occasional Soundcraft..and hundreds of Behringers..they must go through them at some rate.

[abzurd]

 

Originally posted by el_virto As far as the "how are they staying in business".. I don't own anything behringer..might soon...but whatever.. Thing to keep in mind with the problem rate..it's sure a lot higher than we hear about other companies..but we don't really hear a lot from the guys using it with no problems in the basement. Sure there's the occasional "I love my B and there's nothing you can do to tell me it's not a Neve" troll...but keep in mind with the prices on these units..how many must be moving. One of our largest local stores carries A&H, Mackie, the occasional Soundcraft..and hundreds of Behringers..they must go through them at some rate.

 

 

That's pretty much what I said in the second paragraph

[Zeromus-X]

Oh, I completely agree it shouldn't have broken... I wasn't talking about their quality here, just their customer support.

 

I knew what I was getting into when I bought it, and bought it anyway... next time I'll have a PCMCIA hard drive available to store my {censored} on. But when it did break, I was fully expecting to have to end up buying a new one, because it's not worth going through customer service hell for a device that I got fairly cheap. Well, it's worth it, but I was still expecting to go through hell.

 

I was pleasantly surprised, that's all.

 

Unalaska: The place I talked to was in Pennsylvania. I forget the name of it; sounded like a smallish place though.

[Kennykeys]

I guessing that due to cheap components and poor Quality Control, Behr still has a higher rate of DOA and early malfunctioning units than the MI industry norm. But yes, they must be selling a ton of products. I too wonder how they can pay for 3rd party repair (and shipping) on units that are dirt cheap to begin with. Anyway, this new trend in service IS good news. I remember a few years ago (when Uli started this second generation/Far East phase of Behringer) when the warranty card instructed you to send the unit to an address in Germany. Yeah, right.

.

Maybe we could hear from a repair center to shed some light on this seemingly new Behr policy.

[fuzzy4dice]

When I first discovered Behringer I was just in the market for a small PA for my band. I needed like a 10 channel thing.

 

I bought the PMX2000. The price was great and it seemed to have every feature I could possibly want.

 

The first one's fan was not working correctly (the speed was extremely schitzo) which I knew would be a BIG problem in the long run.

 

I returned it to GC and got a new one...which ended up haveing a broken effects unit.

 

When I returned it I got the Yamaha EMX 88S instead. Sure, it was over $300.00 more and way more than I wanted to spend...but it works and I trust it.

 

I don't think I could ever trust Behringer again. I know the prices are low, but that's no excuse to sell shoddy materials.

 

ezt

[Kennykeys]

 

Originally posted by fuzzy4dice ........ I know the prices are low, but that's no excuse to sell shoddy materials. ezt

 

Selling shoddy materials is exactly HOW they make the prices low.

Cheap components and Far Eastern mfg. But what they do that's bad is use stolen intellectual property ( they rip off designs.)

Non- existent service USED to be a possible contributing factor to the low price, but that maybe seems to be changing.

But I still buy and use their stuff . I've used mainly rack processors: crossovers, compressors, driverack, etc. Got a couple of the small throwaround 100 buck mixers. I've stayed away from their speakers, amps, bigger mixers, or anything in a "mission critical" position (that I don't have a substitute for.)

They make ALOT of different products that I'm not even aware of. For instance, I just found out (and bought) an eight channel analog to ADAT Converter, (perfect for adding 8 more simultaneous recording channels to a Fostex VF16 recorder that I just got.) Adjustable mic and line inputs. $120 on eBay for a $200 piece. Can't beat it.

[fuzzy4dice]

I understand that's why the prices are low. I'm just saying that if you are going to sell a product (at any price) it needs to be functional. Otherwise, it's just a broken piece of equipment.

 

I never agreed with the, "well, you paid $100.00 for it...whaddya want?"

 

If a company sells a product it should work as well as anything else. Or at least be as RELIABLE as anything else.

[abzurd]

 

Originally posted by fuzzy4dice I understand that's why the prices are low. I'm just saying that if you are going to sell a product (at any price) it needs to be functional. Otherwise, it's just a broken piece of equipment. I never agreed with the, "well, you paid $100.00 for it...whaddya want?" If a company sells a product it should work as well as anything else. Or at least be as RELIABLE as anything else.

 

 

I completely disagree. - This is EXACTLY where "you get what you paid for" comes from. If you pay $100 for something that NOBODY else seems to be able to charge less than $300, do you REALLY expect it to be as good and reliable?

 

If Yamaha, Peavey, and other of the more reputable companies could make the $300 box for $100 they would.

[fuzzy4dice]

What I'm trying to say is this...

 

Although something may lack the designer name (Yamaha etc.) and maybe not have as many bells and whistles as some other products it should still be a RELIABLE piece of functioning equipment.

 

If they are selling a product as a new product it should at least do the bare minimum of work that it's supposed to do.

 

Frankly, if Behringer has a bad habit it's trying to outdo the competition with tons of bells and whistles that the industry standards don't have.

 

It's by doing this that they screw up the basis of thier product. After they've thrown all sorts of {censored} on it...it's just that much more {censored} there to break.

 

KISS

[fuzzy4dice]

 

Originally posted by abzurd I completely disagree. - This is EXACTLY where "you get what you paid for" comes from. If you pay $100 for something that NOBODY else seems to be able to charge less than $300, do you REALLY expect it to be as good and reliable? If Yamaha, Peavey, and other of the more reputable companies could make the $300 box for $100 they would.

 

 

And belive me. Yamaha and PEavey are not working for bare bones minimum. If any of these companies wanted to charge $100.00 for a $300.00 product they STILL would not go under.

 

MOst of these products are assembled with materials costing less than $5.00.

 

And we all know how well workers are paid in China and Taiwan...

[J.]

 

Originally posted by fuzzy4dice And belive me. Yamaha and PEavey are not working for bare bones minimum. If any of these companies wanted to charge $100.00 for a $300.00 product they STILL would not go under. MOst of these products are assembled with materials costing less than $5.00. And we all know how well workers are paid in China and Taiwan...

 

 

I don't know if that's true. Peavey manages to make very good equipment for very low prices while keeping their gear reliable. I wouldn't doubt that a Peavey product that sells for $300 street cost at least $100 or more to manufacture and market. I'm not into the economics of pro audio gear, but that sounds reasonable to me. Some of the better stuff is probably made and sold with a very small profit margin. Some of the really cheap stuff might be made and sold with a very high profit margin.

[B. Adams]

When you talk about the cost of building something, you also have to figure in the cost of the buildings they're built and stored in, all the tools and consumables used in construction, the people building them, the people in charge of those people, all the parts, all the parts that they buy or make that don't work, all the finished pieces that don't meet QC, or need to be helped a little to get out the door. Plus marketing, paying accountants and lawyers, insurance, and R&D, and the list goes on and on. It's not just buying a few parts and paying some 8 year old Chinese kid 5 cents a day to put them together. There's more to it than that.

 

And even in Asia, manufacturing still takes just as long. You know how it is, when you're building something. 1 hour is really 2 hours, a day is really 2 days, a week turns into 2 weeks. It never goes as fast as you think it should, and even if it does for a while, something else happens that slows you down. That goes for manufacturing anything, not just this type of stuff.

 

Right now my day job is welding for a company that makes pressure washers. You wouldn't believe how long those damn things take to make, but you wouldn't guess it from the finished product. They're actually pretty simple machines. But they take a lot of work to get done, and that's why they cost a lot. Trust me, the company I work for isn't pulling in a ton of cash, though you might think they are by looking at the finished product.

 

The fact that Behringer stuff is so cheap means they're cutting corners somewhere, and things break when you cut corners making them. That's just the way it is. They try to do too much for too little, and take too many shortcuts, and that's too bad because they won't get too much money from me. No matter how good their customer service is getting better means that I could talk to a real, helpful person with a good attitude every time my Behringer WTF-4000 breaks and need to be sent in because it's not built well enough to survive getting shipped to me in the first place. I don't have time to deal with that kind of crap, good customer service or not.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Originally posted by fuzzy4dice And belive me. Yamaha and PEavey are not working for bare bones minimum. If any of these companies wanted to charge $100.00 for a $300.00 product they STILL would not go under. MOst of these products are assembled with materials costing less than $5.00. And we all know how well workers are paid in China and Taiwan...

 

 

Ask anyone who actually owns a business. A 10% profit is reason for celebration.

[abzurd]

 

Originally posted by fuzzy4dice And belive me. Yamaha and PEavey are not working for bare bones minimum. If any of these companies wanted to charge $100.00 for a $300.00 product they STILL would not go under. MOst of these products are assembled with materials costing less than $5.00. And we all know how well workers are paid in China and Taiwan...

 

 

Me thinks you need an economics class. This isn't the way it works. There is a reason Behringer gear has dubious reliability and reputation. Name me the cheapest _____ in the _____ market segment that is also as good as the best thing in the same market.

 

I've never heard anyone give a reason that didn't have at least something to do with price when buying Behringer. That's their game and there's plenty of people willing to play it. I have a V-amp, and some DI boxes myself. BUT I also have a $100 used guitar that I don't play very well or very often and only to myself. and the DI's are used in the basement for practice.

[agedhorse]

If you look at the cost of bringing a product LINE to market and supporting it for the life cycle of the product plus warranty period, there's a lot of cost there, including the design, prototyping, documentation (both engineering/manufacturing and service/owners manuals), the cost of raw materials, manufacturing equipment and the space to house it, finishing, testing, damaged product that must be discarded, labor, insurance, advertising, trade shows, bad accounts (anybody remember how much money Mars Music cost the industry?) and then you have to make a profit out of what's left.

 

If youlook at the publicly traded companies, their financials show that virtually all of them make somewhere less than 10% profit on sales... some of them a lot less. Mackie Designs was a LOT less.

[J.]

Pro audio gear manufacturing sure doesn't seem like a cash cow after reading all of this.

 

If you want a good profit margin, start a cable company. Typical margins for cable companies are around 50% (for the big guys at least). I suppose it's easy when most cities only have one company to choose from. I even work for a cable company, and I think it's overpriced.

[JoeTechie]

Everyone seems to be missing the science of Scale.

 

If you build 10 mixers at $5/each, but it costs you $1000 a day to keep the building running and the workers paid, and the offices taken care of - then you'de better charge a crapload - cause they are already $105 mixers!

But if you build 50,000 of each model and have a dozen models... and keep them a small area in a un-airconditioned warehouse - then the "overhead" everyone is speaking of is negligable and it IS the cost of the parts and labor that matter. The more you make the cheaper each unit is. If you build that many - lots are sure to be bad - so what - they dont cost you anything.

Overhead for Behringer is kept low and it's obvious. Their manuals are small, and a few models share 1 manual (lower costs of editing, checking, printing, etc) R&D is kept low as well - they are well known for copying other designs and then running with the designs.

They have better parts than some of their competitors at their level - but it is the Quality Control that costs too much for them to make it worth while. The durability is also one of the most common complaints - this is also a business choice - 90% of the users will never actually "tour" with this gear - so it's built just durable enough to handle the average band playing a few gigs. This means that it is prone to damage more easily - (but may last for a lifetime as any other device.) So if they sell 500,000 and have to pay for 500 or so to be fixed, or replaced, it's no big deal.

 

 

I personally agree with "you get what you pay for"... but I believe that you are getting slightly more than what you pay for here - feature-wise they are able to put out a better product for a lower price, with the caveat that you may not have the quality of the more expensive names. But in this market segment - they are still going to make a killing. People just need to distinguish between pro gear, semi-pro gear, and pro-sumer gear.

 

-Joe