Small venue philsophy

[tlbonehead]

There seems to be an assumption here that if you're not micing the amps, the stage volume must be really loud in order to "carry the room". That's not true for my style of music - electric blues, and the size of the rooms we play - 100 people or less. I often do the gig with my 15 watt Fender Pro Junior - unmiced!

Yes, but the OP was about live harder rock stuff, not vintage blues music. Big difference.

[witesol]

 

Just because the majority of people do something a certain way doesn't mean it's the best way. I do think that sound coming directly from the stage sounds better. I think it has more depth, hearing sound come directly from different locations from the stage is a better sound for me than being reproduced from microphones and then through PA speakers. I don't have an investment in believing otherwise. It's my observation for getting the best sound possible. Solos? We've tackled this problem. The amplifier we use has a pedal that switches preamps to a preamp set louder for solos. During sound check we make sure these levels are ok, and if not, because the venue is small, I can communicate to the performers what to change. This is a commonplace tactic for most musicans playing live that don't use a sound man, someone goes out and checks the sound while they are playing or has a wireless guitar. Also, I think most sound men have damaged ears. Usually, most venues where the band is offensively loud and the higher frequencies are cutting through the eardrums like knives, are places where there is the "professional" soundman. And I agree, that using acoustic feedback doesn't require gobs of sound from the stage. What I have a conflict with is a soundman that insists that he must necessarily dictate what the level of the instruments should be to the detriment of the guitar players tone.

 

True, just because a lot of people do something doesn't make it the best way. Additionally to that, just because someone has been doing something for years doesn't automatically make them good either. I've worked with many an act/player that have had decades of experience and horrible tone concepts. ..Also soundmen that, in my opinion, are great technicians but don't have the ear to paint with sound. I couldn't tell from your experiences listed whether I'd want you near my board or not. And by simply giving my resume' it wouldn't tell you whether I know what I'm doing either.

 

sound coming from the stage can sound good, so can mic'd sources. If it's a good blend then it's good. Simple. Usually a smaller room works well with stage sound and only vocals/DI through the PA. But, filling a bigger room with bigger/louder amps onstage makes for mush, ringing ears, frazzled voices, and complaining people. The other problem with stage-only sources is the obvious issues of listeners being on one side getting blasted out by the amp on that side. If the stage is wider than deep it's worse.

 

so, "Professional soundmen" typically have damaged ears? Funny. Even if remotely true, I'd take a good soundman that has a knack for blending good tones over a hack with perfect hearing that can't tell when something is harsh, bottom heavy, honky, sibilant, ringing, out of phase, etc. I think you're wrong about the venues that have {censored}ty sound is where you'll find Professional soundpeople.

[alcohol]

so, "Professional soundmen" typically have damaged ears? Funny. Even if remotely true, I'd take a good soundman that has a knack for blending good tones over a hack with perfect hearing that can't tell when something is harsh, bottom heavy, honky, sibilant, ringing, out of phase, etc. I think you're wrong about the venues that have {censored}ty sound is where you'll find Professional soundpeople.

 

 

"Professional" is one of the most abused terms. Anyone that makes a living at what he does considers himself a professional. The disparity among professionals of every field is huge. Being 'professional' doesn't mean you're good.

 

I'd say odds are better than 50%, that in any rock club, the sound is gonna suck. Some people have tin ears and some people have hearing damage. I remember being in one club, everything going through the PA. I could feel the bass upsetting my stomach. I tried to talk to my friend to tell him I wanted to leave. He couldn't hear me shouting next to his ear over the sound. So we went to another room and there I had to shout, that volume was hurting my ears and upsetting my stomach. The band was excellent though. I'd say that most good sounding bands in small clubs, that I've heard, didn't have a sound man. Says a lot for the profession. The last gig I was at, the soundman had the snare drum clipping, badly. I don't think he even noticed it.

[HairyScaryMark]

The sound (usually) sucks in all but one of these rock venue places around here.

 

The systems are all at least reasonable but they are misued by both the band and engineers, usually.

 

Loud onstage sound makes life much harder for the sound engineer and when I talked to an engineer about it once, that was the first thing he pointed the finger of blame at.

 

One night, at one venue, I could hear the sound rather clearly, round the corner and across the road, maybe 100 meters away. Serious ear damage has been caused by misuse of that system.

 

This no way means that it is better to just use a vocal PA or do sound from stage. A fully-miced and well operated sound system is going to sound really good (as it does everytime in one venue where they spent conciderable amount of money and have a very good engineer etc).

 

One venue around here has top quality PA speakers (Function One, i think it is). A Yamaha digital mixing system. It also has 2 Marshall 4x12" cabinets, ENGL powerball and Marshall DSL100, an Ampeg SVT halfstack, which are all routed through powerbreaks that are controlled by the engineer at the mixing desk. Everyone who plays or goes to watch/listen there, walks away without their ears ringing and hearing a good balance of sound.

 

However, the same cannot be said for the other rock venues in my city.

[alcohol]

I have to admit that seeing Aerosmith, Steely Dan and The Who at different times at the Tweeter Center in Foxboro MA., that each time it sounded superb. I don't go to many big concerts, mostly the small clubs around Boston. So yes there's a factor about being successful.

 

However, I've seen some incredible shows and musicians at some of these small venues, that aren't commercially successful at all. Some playing to essentially empty rooms. So I don't think that being SUCCESSFUL necessarily means you're good and not being SUCCESSFUL means you aren't good. I've seen SUCCESSFUL bands that sucked live despite having good sounding recordings. And my kid's band isn't obnoxiously loud. They sound pretty damned good if you ask me.

[agedhorse]

Alcohol - I never said COMMERCIALLY successful. I said SUCCESSFUL. Commercial is a whole different aspect.

[axeman6969]

I too work "both sides of the glass". I normally run sound for my band from the stage, unless one of a couple guys are available. I have the pleasure of working with very unselfish musicians so stage volume is not a problem. Bass is DId. No amp at all in all but the biggest venues. I use a small combo amp (15 watts), usually leaning back pointed at the my side. Not behind. '57 in the grill. The mix I get is clear, punchy and defined as hell. You can hear all the vocals, and each instrument is in it's space. I totally attribute this to keeping stage volumes in check. Each player has his own monitor mix. Two guys are on ears. Two of us are not. Never an issue.

I also run sound for other bands when I'm not working with mine, and typically it's totally the opposite. Guitarists that don't have a clue. They'll put a 100 watt marshall with a quad box, 5 feet from their back, and complain that they can't hear themselves when all the while the cabinets sound is blooming at the first set of tables, and those poor people are indindated with nothing but loud, typically poor, guitar tone.

I was at a local establishment a few weeks ago, and this cat had a Mark IV head and a Mesa Quad box. THis room is fire rated for 150 people. With 75, you can't walk easily. This cat's sound was 117db C coming off the front of the stage. UNBELIEVABLE.... You couldn't hear anything but guitar right in front. And, when the club manager flipped, he said, "What, I can't even hear myself".... She just looked at me like, "DO SOMETHING". So I did. I told the guy that if he didn't turn down, and let the BE do his job, that she'd pull the plug on the band, and they not only wouldn't come back, but they wouldn't get payed for the nights gig. That little bit is also in the club's contracts. I suggested that the guy turn down, and turn his amp towards an unoccupied area, mic it up, and feed the signal back through the monitors. He did. Sound improved 100%. Right before I left, the guitar guy asked me if I'd be interested in running sound for their band. I said told him I'd do it when available, if he left the Mesa rig at home. I even offered to let him use my backup amp. (Yamaha T50C).

I think todays club musicians (read kiddies) need to be educated as to what is appropriate for the club setting. They need to be taken to venues to hear bands that get it, and shown, that you don't need a 100 watt Marshall, to get "Your Tone". In all honesty, tone is 95% in the hands of the player. I think most can be reasoned with, the ones that can't will weed themselves out eventually. THey also need to be told that nobody cares what amp they're using, unless it starts offending someone.

Just my input on a very intersting thread....

[GCDEF]

Shouldn't the soundman accommodate the act instead of vis versa?

 

 

In a word - no. Usually the soundman is a paid employee of the club, as is the band. The band is there to accommodate the venue, and the soundman is there to help. The sooner your son's band realizes that, the more frequently they'll be gigging.

 

As to the interaction between guitar and amp, I have Yellow Jackets in my amp bringing it to 18 watts, then add an attenuator on top of that. I can get controlled feedback and infinite sustain at levels you can talk over. You don't need 125 dB to have guitar/amp interaction.

[GCDEF]

Another thing to consider is that unless you want your son to suffer from tinnitus or serious hearing loss in his later years, turning down now is in his best interests. A number of those performers from the past who played with huge, loud backlines have profound hearing problems.

[GCDEF]

What I have a conflict with is a soundman that insists that he must necessarily dictate what the level of the instruments should be to the detriment of the guitar players tone.

 

 

I'm a guitar player, but seriously, who gives a rat's ass about the guitar player's tone other than the guitar player. It's about the audience, not satisfying some kid's ego. There are plenty of low volume alternatives to achieving great tone these days.

[BigMac5]

I'm a guitar player, but seriously, who gives a rat's ass about the guitar player's tone other than the guitar player. It's about the audience, not satisfying some kid's ego. There are plenty of low volume alternatives to achieving great tone these days.

That's why I use one of these!

[Squier Fat Telecaster]

Another trick for those using a 1/2 stack is to point the cabinet backwards.

I much prefer to see 1/2 stacks sidewashing the stage instead of pointing at the audience. The punters in front of the guitar player will hear that amp louder than the amp on the other side of the stage which is one reason to mic it and let the soundman MIX the show so all the punters can hear the vocals and a balanced mix of all the instruments anywhere in the venue.

[GCDEF]

Thanks ever so much for the pleasant PM there Alcohol.

[Terry Allan Hall]

I've run into this a couple of times with my son's hard rock band. They use their amps and the way the amps interact with their guitars to shape their sound. They feel able to control their dynamics and balance the sound onstage. The venues they play are clubs that hold no more than 2 to 3 hundred people. I and the band prefer the sounds of the guitar and bass directly from the stage, directly from the amp. They have equipment that's large enough for these rooms. They have enough skill to modulate their dynamics to fit the room. Maybe some enhancement from the PA, but the bulk of their sound should be coming directly from their amps not the PA. We've had soundmen that want them to turn down their amps so that they can be better controlled by the soundman. So the soundman "mixes" them instead of them balancing their own sound. When they play I'm in the audience and will make suggestions to help. I personally think that in a small club, the contrasts of the music coming from different areas from the stage sounds better and more dynamic than being blended into the PA and for small clubs look to the PA for vocal needs and some enhancement of the bass drum and snare. So I want to know when did a mic going through a PA become an improvement in sound over the actual amp? These are not places where feedback is a problem. So the stage volume of the amps is not contributing to feedback. It isn't a feedback problem but seems like a conflict of philosophy. Shouldn't the soundman accommodate the act instead of vis versa?

Keeping the onstage volume down, and micing everything, might just preserve the band members' hearing for a lot longer...never a bad thing!

[alcohol]

Thanks, for all the advice. We all already wear custom fitted earplugs. The volume of the band is essentially modulated to the how the drummer plays and the desire for acoustic feedback for the guitar. The philsophy is that in small clubs, we would rather have most of the sound come from the stage. We've never had a problem with hearing vocals.

[jbutler1982]

You wear earplugs while on stage? And you are arguing with the soundguy about how you sound fine? While you are wearing earplugs?

 

Am I missing something about how insane your whole setup seems?

[Miket156]

Quote by alcohol:

 

"Thanks, for all the advice. We all already wear custom fitted earplugs. The volume of the band is essentially modulated to the how the drummer plays and the desire for acoustic feedback for the guitar. The philsophy is that in small clubs, we would rather have most of the sound come from the stage. We've never had a problem with hearing vocals."

 

The PA should do the work. It SHOULD be mixed by a decent soundman so that everyone can enjoy the sound and the show, and no one gets blown out of their seats at tables in front. As stated by others, more than once, no way can the musicians mix the sound from the stage. How can you hear what it sounds like in the back when you're on the stage? You can achieve the same TONE with small stage amps at a much lower volume and let the PA handle the sound throughout the building. Guitar players can get "acoustic feedback" from a small amp at a lot lower volume that a big amp. Big amps are for large venues, small amps are for small venues. Alcohol, after how long this thread has gotten, you still don't get it.

 

Mike T.

[alcohol]

Mike T wrote:

 

" Alcohol, after how long this thread has gotten, you still don't get it. "

 

I'm just stubborn

[GCDEF]

Thanks, for all the advice. We all already wear custom fitted earplugs. The volume of the band is essentially modulated to the how the drummer plays and the desire for acoustic feedback for the guitar. The philsophy is that in small clubs, we would rather have most of the sound come from the stage. We've never had a problem with hearing vocals.

I thought you were talking about your son's band? Not living vicariously through our children are we?

[agedhorse]

Provide earplugs for the audience then... if they are that necessary for you guys.

[Craig Vecchione]

IF the stage volume really is being dictated by the drums, tell the drummer to get his volume down. It can be done.

 

Really though, your attitude towards sound people who haven't worked out for you kinda tips your hand...you have no intention of trying anything different.

 

Small venues are notorious for being difficult to get vocals clear, due to the mic bleed from the backline. There's no getting around this...small venue = mics are close to the amps.

 

IF things are going so successfully, you should be playing bigger venues soon. That means you'll need to change how you're doing things regarding sound. It would be so much easier if the band was already familiar with these methods and confortable playing this way.

[Squier Fat Telecaster]

Yeah, it's great to be stage left in front of a half stack and not hear the guitar player on stage right.... Guitar amps placed at the backline don't have great horizontal dispersion (or even spl dispersion) like a good PA can provide.

[Miket156]

Alcohol's original question was:

"Shouldn't the soundman accommodate the act instead of vis versa?"

The soundman told him and the band what they should do, and Alcohol doesn't want to listen. I don't know why people post topics and ask questions when they don't want to listen to what EVERYONE is telling them. Not worth the waste of breathe, or in this case, worth typing any more responses to someone that doesn't want to listen to what he's being told.

Mike T.

[witesol]

IF the stage volume really is being dictated by the drums, tell the drummer to get his volume down. It can be done. .

 

 

sort of..Sometimes the player can no longer play well when you keep telling them to watch their velocity. I'll simply not play with a basher.

[coyote-1]

Then the venue and the act are a mismatch.... a small club should not be booking a loud act if mic bleed is such a big issue. It's the club's responsibility to not book those acts**.

Naturally, that's not what the clubs do. They book whatever's gonna help them make $$$!! So we're left with this insane bass-ackwards concept of the band working for the soundman. But the soundmen who insist on that also seem to insist on putting subs on a jazz trio

**Of course, if we point the amps ACROSS THE STAGE instead of at the audience, that bleed becomes much less of a problem. Particularly if the venue is equipped with proper, high-rejection cardoids.

IF the stage volume really is being dictated by the drums, tell the drummer to get his volume down. It can be done. Really though, your attitude towards sound people who haven't worked out for you kinda tips your hand...you have no intention of trying anything different. Small venues are notorious for being difficult to get vocals clear, due to the mic bleed from the backline. There's no getting around this...small venue = mics are close to the amps. IF things are going so successfully, you should be playing bigger venues soon. That means you'll need to change how you're doing things regarding sound. It would be so much easier if the band was already familiar with these methods and confortable playing this way.