Small venue philsophy

[alcohol]

I've run into this a couple of times with my son's hard rock band.

 

They use their amps and the way the amps interact with their guitars to shape their sound. They feel able to control their dynamics and balance the sound onstage. The venues they play are clubs that hold no more than 2 to 3 hundred people. I and the band prefer the sounds of the guitar and bass directly from the stage, directly from the amp. They have equipment that's large enough for these rooms. They have enough skill to modulate their dynamics to fit the room. Maybe some enhancement from the PA, but the bulk of their sound should be coming directly from their amps not the PA.

 

We've had soundmen that want them to turn down their amps so that they can be better controlled by the soundman. So the soundman "mixes" them instead of them balancing their own sound. When they play I'm in the audience and will make suggestions to help. I personally think that in a small club, the contrasts of the music coming from different areas from the stage sounds better and more dynamic than being blended into the PA and for small clubs look to the PA for vocal needs and some enhancement of the bass drum and snare.

 

So I want to know when did a mic going through a PA become an improvement in sound over the actual amp? These are not places where feedback is a problem. So the stage volume of the amps is not contributing to feedback. It isn't a feedback problem but seems like a conflict of philosophy.

 

Shouldn't the soundman accommodate the act instead of vis versa?

[boomerweps]

"Shouldn't the soundman accommodate the act instead of vis versa?"

 

Yes.

BUT...

The soundman should know the venue acoustics (empty & full of waterbags) and the gear he operates. He should let the band soundcheck and then make suggestions on how to better the sound in the crowd area.

 

"So I want to know when did a mic going through a PA become an improvement in sound over the actual amp?"

 

When the average band uses too much power through that beaming amp ripping the audience's ears open when the amp plays at the back of the guitarist's knees. Plus after massive strides in PA performance.

 

Feedback is not the only consideration. Audience coverage is a major one.

 

"I and the band prefer the sounds of the guitar and bass directly from the stage, directly from the amp. They have equipment that's large enough for these rooms. They have enough skill to modulate their dynamics to fit the room."

 

Good for them. Seriously. Have the gear needed and know how to use it. However a good sound system will only reproduce the sound from stage, NOT color it.

 

"We've had soundmen that want them to turn down their amps so that they can be better controlled by the soundman. So the soundman "mixes" them instead of them balancing their own sound."

 

Yup, and with a decent soundman (or gal), the audience gets to hear the WHOLE mix EVENLY and not get blasted by one stage amp. They should still balance their stage sound but let the person out front, hearing what the audience hears, help them get their sound across the audience.

 

"When they play I'm in the audience and will make suggestions to help."

 

Unless you are designated the Band Engineer (BE) or even their manager, doing much of this will only annoy the person paid to operate the gear, whether they are competent or not. It seems everyone in a club has TWO jobs, what they earn money at and soundman.

 

"I personally think that in a small club, the contrasts of the music coming from different areas from the stage sounds better and more dynamic than being blended into the PA and for small clubs look to the PA for vocal needs and some enhancement of the bass drum and snare."

 

That's ONE opinion and relies on where you are in the venue. Small venue, in the closer half of the crowd area, it's easy for whatever stage instrument you are closest to, to dominate the mix you hear. Many use vocals only PA's in small venues satisfactorily. Small and overly muffled bass drums definately need some reinforcement. Snare reinforcement in a small venue? MY snare can rip people's heads off in most small venues.

 

Boomerweps

[alcohol]

"MY snare can rip people's heads off in most small venues.

 

Boomerweps"

 

What are you using for a snare?

[DaBender]

I keep reading over and over about these "beaming" guitar amps. In all my years of going to clubs and hearing bands, I've never experienced this phenomenon, despite the fact that few of the bands I've seen mic their amps in the clubs around here. I'm talking mostly blues and roots rock, with open back amps, Fender being a typical choice.

[Gary in NJ]

When I play, I can't even hear my amp - which is right behind me. All of the (balanced) sound comes from the monitors.

 

That's the way it should be. Keep the stage volume down, it makes for a better performance if the whole band can hear each other. This way everyone on stage performs as a band, and not as individual musicians.

[boomerweps]

 

"MY snare can rip people's heads off in most small venues. Boomerweps" What are you using for a snare?

 

 

Normally I pick my snare for the venue. I only have 5. I use my Acrolite (Blacrolite 14x5) most often. I use either my WorldMax Black Hawg (14x6.5) hammered brass or 14x5 Premier olympic steel for louder environments. Quieter venues, I use my wood "hot rodded" sessions snare or my 13x3 Tamma hammered steel picollo. I use Attack TB Sig single ply batters and snare heads on all my 14"s.

 

weps

[wztonz]

There is absaolutely NO WAY you can have ANY CLUE as to what the room sounds like from onstage standing in front of your amp and next to the drums.

 

Give up your antiquated 60's thinking, and let the professional engineer do what he is hired to do, provide quality sound to the PAYING CUSTOMERS!!!!!

If the customers don't come, you don't get paid dude. It's not about you, it's about the dollars through the door. You could be an organ grinders monkee so long as the venue makes money.

 

Turn your {censored}ing {censored} down. A 4x12 cab is a line array, it has a narrow focus of energy that doesn't get focused evenly around a room. If you're sitting in front of it, even if you're in the back of the room, that's all you're going to hear for the most part.

 

Louder is NOT better, and it does not make up for your attitude. Here's a dollar, go buy a clue.

[jwlussow]

 

There is absaolutely NO WAY you can have ANY CLUE as to what the room sounds like from onstage standing in front of your amp and next to the drums.

 

 

 

I agree. The problem might be the sound system you are using. There is NO WAY for the performers to balance themselves on stage during a performance with their amp right behind them and the drums on stage.

[alcohol]

Here's the nutshell of the situation. For some kind of guitar playing the interaction of the sound of the amp with the guitar is necessary.

 

Secondly, while I agree that the band onstage doesn't have the best idea of how they sound in front, why shouldn't another person be able to advise them on turning up or down, instead of it needing to be controlled by another person?

 

Thirdly, there's as much discrepency in the quality of soundmen as there is musicianship. Same room, different person on sound, different results. The last person who did sound for us was a joke for us and all the other bands. For starters, the snare drum mic was clipping for all the bands. He fed the drummer the drum mix through the monitors, the guitar player the guitar sound through his monitor and the bass player, the bass sound through his monitors. The Fender Deluxe from one of the other bands sounded louder and more piercing than our 4x12 Marshall 50 watt, from out front. If you can't hear your amp on stage, you're not placing it properly. You don't need a monitor for your amp if you know what you're doing.

 

Fourthly, I am old school, where musicians modulated their sound to the room. I remain old school, because when musicians can do that, it sounds better than depending on a PA system which flattens the sound and makes it less dynamic.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I've run into this a couple of times with my son's hard rock band. They use their amps and the way the amps interact with their guitars to shape their sound. They feel able to control their dynamics and balance the sound onstage. The venues they play are clubs that hold no more than 2 to 3 hundred people. I and the band prefer the sounds of the guitar and bass directly from the stage, directly from the amp. They have equipment that's large enough for these rooms. They have enough skill to modulate their dynamics to fit the room. Maybe some enhancement from the PA, but the bulk of their sound should be coming directly from their amps not the PA. We've had soundmen that want them to turn down their amps so that they can be better controlled by the soundman. So the soundman "mixes" them instead of them balancing their own sound. When they play I'm in the audience and will make suggestions to help. I personally think that in a small club, the contrasts of the music coming from different areas from the stage sounds better and more dynamic than being blended into the PA and for small clubs look to the PA for vocal needs and some enhancement of the bass drum and snare. So I want to know when did a mic going through a PA become an improvement in sound over the actual amp? These are not places where feedback is a problem. So the stage volume of the amps is not contributing to feedback. It isn't a feedback problem but seems like a conflict of philosophy. Shouldn't the soundman accommodate the act instead of vis versa?

 

 

The problem with stage volume is that it bleeds into vocal mics. All mics, but it's mostly a problem with vocal mics. The soundman may be asking for less stage volume because he's having trouble getting the vocals over the instruments (typically you want vocals to be 3-6dB louder than everything else). The problem is insidious in that you can't just raise the vocals...doing so increases both the vocal part of what the mic 'hears' and the stage noise part. The result is often that the vocals remain too low in the mix, the overall mix is louder, and the resulting increase in reflected sound getting back into the mics makes the mix muddy.

 

If the only thing that matters is the guitars, then by all means tell the soundman this before the show so he can accomodate you. If you're looking for a balanced mix, try letting the soundman do his job and see if the audience prefers the results. It is the audience you're there to please, right?

 

As an aside; It was probably a misnomer on your part, but there's no "interaction" between guitars and amps unless the musician is using acoustic feedback a-la Jimi Hendrix. It's a one-way street otherwise...guitar signal feeds the amp, amp makes it louder, and out it goes......

[tremendo]

My experience: I'm the singing guitarist, and when we do a soundcheck and have a chance, I throw on a wireless and go listen to the guitar/bss/drums mix in different parts of the room. Even in major rooms (1,800 people last Friday), when I have my amp pretty loud, where it points gets that direct amp sound, even way off the stage. Yes, that gets covered a bit by bodies, but it helps me to realize that even though on stage it sounds "reasonable loud" (power tube distortion), some areas are too loud and un-balanced. That's what the soundman fixes, but I can't get too loud, or it makes his job impossible.

[Axisplayer]

Here's the nutshell of the situation. For some kind of guitar playing the interaction of the sound of the amp with the guitar is necessary.

 

Controlled feedback/sustain may be part of some songs, and when it is I can still get it properly into my system.

 

Secondly, while I agree that the band onstage doesn't have the best idea of how they sound in front, why shouldn't another person be able to advise them on turning up or down, instead of it needing to be controlled by another person?

 

Because the needed changes happen bar-to-bar and song-to-song, not set-to-set.

 

Thirdly, there's as much discrepency in the quality of soundmen as there is musicianship.

 

Agreed, so find a GOOD one and pay him what it is worth to sound good. You get what you pay for generally.

 

Fourthly, I am old school, where musicians modulated their sound to the room. I remain old school, because when musicians can do that, it sounds better than depending on a PA system which flattens the sound and makes it less dynamic.

 

See answer above. A good system improves sound, not hurts it. If your system is NOT improving your sound, you are using inferior gear, or deployed it incorrectly.

 

I am also VERY old school, but refusal to change does not always provide the best results. When cars were invented, people only wanted better horses. They had to be shown that cars were an improvement (and with all due respect Andy, MOST folks still like to have cars even if they do have horses. )

[agedhorse]

Hey, I have a car too! I'm not THAT old school. I also don't especially care to plow fields with a horse team either, I can but I choose not to because the tractor was a major improvment.

 

There are several problems that have been hit on by various folks, I will look at this from both an old and new school perspective. Beaming is indeed a problem at higher frequencies when a large cone driver is reproducing shorter wavelengths relative to the diameter of the cone. This can be a benefit with regards to projection but at the expense of even distribution. Anybody sitting in the "beam" may experience a rising response as frequency increases... maybe +9dB at 6kHz even. That's generally painful. When playing on stage, often the guitar player is outside of that beam, or sometimes is deaf enough that it sounds good to them without regards to the rest of the audience.

 

Stage bleed is another big problem, I'm thinking vocal mics, any acoustic guitars (even w/ a pickup the body will act as a transducer itself for the rest of the sound on stage), tom mics (unless effectively gated) and God forbid the almighty overheads. Sometimes, with loud guitars there's more guitar than vocal in the mics due to positioning and relative source volumes.

 

Even mix throughout the house... especially for wide venues, this can result in way liud guitar in front of the amp and within the beaming pattern with a loss of guitar on the sides. This also means the sound quality is not uniform (or balanced with the rest of the band) for everyone in the audience.

 

As far as bad soundmen, well I suppose in some respect at that level you kkind of get what you pay for, but when you find good ones, work with them rather than against them. Life's too short to argue with a know-it-all guitar player and even many good soundmen will just give up and mute the channel and go into "damage control mixing" mode which isn't going to be the best for the band, but will reduce the audience complaints.

 

Playing with dynamics is great, but that doesn't mean going from loud to louder to even louder. There's no way a player on stage has any idea of what it sounds in the house, and in various locations throughout the house.

[BigMac5]

I always mike the guitar, it makes a huge difference in spreading the sound of the guitar.

[alcohol]

Craigv wrote:

As an aside; It was probably a misnomer on your part, but there's no "interaction" between guitars and amps unless the musician is using acoustic feedback a-la Jimi Hendrix. It's a one-way street otherwise...guitar signal feeds the amp, amp makes it louder, and out it goes......

 

And this is the style guitar player my son is. When we record we try to capture the sound of his amp and the interplay of the amp with the guitar, then everyonce in a while when we play live, the sound man tells us to not go for the sound we want out of the amp. It's like telling us to them to be a different band.

 

I don't argue with the sound man, I talk to him and tell him what we're going for and then let the chips fall where they may. I want a good relationship with this person. Other than on this forum, I'm a very tactful person! We've had people that have and can accomadate us very well and others that haven't. I'm thinking of asking to do the sound from now on.

[lifeloverwg]

 

The problem with stage volume is that it bleeds into vocal mics. All mics, but it's mostly a problem with vocal mics. The soundman may be asking for less stage volume because he's having trouble getting the vocals over the instruments (typically you want vocals to be 3-6dB louder than everything else). The problem is insidious in that you can't just raise the vocals...doing so increases both the vocal part of what the mic 'hears' and the stage noise part. The result is often that the vocals remain too low in the mix, the overall mix is louder, and the resulting increase in reflected sound getting back into the mics makes the mix muddy. If the only thing that matters is the guitars, then by all means tell the soundman this before the show so he can accomodate you. If you're looking for a balanced mix, try letting the soundman do his job and see if the audience prefers the results. It is the audience you're there to please, right? As an aside; It was probably a misnomer on your part, but there's no "interaction" between guitars and amps unless the musician is using acoustic feedback a-la Jimi Hendrix. It's a one-way street otherwise...guitar signal feeds the amp, amp makes it louder, and out it goes......

 

 

Craigv pretty much says it as far as I'm concerned. We usually mic the amps and DI the bass even in small venues. The father of our lead guitarist is always wanting me to run things the OP's way and just use the PA for vocal reinforcment. I run into three problems even in the really small venues when we operate that way.

 

#1. First is getting everybody on stage to hear each other with out blasting out the front tables which are 10'-15' from the stage. We usually solve that by having the lead amp cross firing to help with this and both guitar amps get tilted. The only time the band might ask me for guitar or bass in a monitor is out of doors and when the amps are aimed to cover the house.

 

#2. Next is the problem of even coverage in the house. If you can't notice the beaming of a 4x12 cabinet, you aren't listening closely or your'e playing a narrow enough room that it doesn't matter. The single 12" amp our lead uses covers much more evenly than the rythyms 4x12". (tilting the 4x12 helps with the beaming) Even coverage is the reason I like to run stereo mains. I'll often times need to shade the lead guitar to the opposite side of where her cross firing amp is pointed. Even coverage is why we run everything we can through the PA and keep stage levels down.

 

#3. Is the biggest problem and Craigv pretty much said it. In small venues, the louder the amps the harder it is to have clear vocals. We went to a small venue we play last night to hear a blues act from Portland that was passing through. This place has a fire code of 136 with a small corner stage, a low ceiling and a small crappy PA that every body uses as there isn't any place to put our own. Although we do bring a couple of monitors. The crowd is very appreciative and into the music and the amps have to carry the house due to lack of channels and lack of PA. This band had obviously been playing together for a long time, they were very tight and were very skilled at keeping levels balanced and not too loud. The lead guitar had a single twelve amp as did the keyboard while the bass was playing a Ampeg single 15. Over all they did as good a job of mixing them selves from the stage as you could ask for. The only thing that wasn't working were the vocals. All five sang, and even the vocals were fine on the ballads and slow songs, but as soon as they started rockin and playing a little harder the vocals immediately muddied up to sound like Charlie Brown's teacher. Wah, wah, wanh, wanh, wanh. Sure a better PA could have helped, but in the smaller spaces most of us play, running everything through the PA has lots of benefits assuming a competant operator is involved and your'e not playing metal.

 

Good luck, Winston.

[agedhorse]

 

I'm thinking of asking to do the sound from now on.

 

 

Be prepared for dealing with volume complaints in addition to getting your guitar sound. A good soundman manages compromise very well.

[coyote-1]

Tell that to Deep Purple or Motley Crue.

 

When I play, I can't even hear my amp - which is right behind me. All of the (balanced) sound comes from the monitors. That's the way it should be. Keep the stage volume down, it makes for a better performance if the whole band can hear each other. This way everyone on stage performs as a band, and not as individual musicians.

 

The stage volume should NOT be kept down unless the band wants it that way. Go to a James Taylor concert and I'd expect stage volume to be kept kinda low. Go see Alice in Chains, and..... ?????

 

This is why I start the mix by giving the band what they want onstage. Because as alcohol has implied, in a smaller venue the stage sound can often carry the load. I agree the stage volume should not be 138db, but there should be no problem whatsoever with a drummer who's hitting the drums and a bassist & guitarist balanced with that. For most guitarists, this also happens to be in their tone sweet spot, that point where their tube amps are running high enough to give the tone they strive for AND some feedback if desired. From there, the instruments get balanced in the monitors and the vox added on top. Long as the singer's comfortable at that point, you're good to go - you then use the PA merely to roll out that stage sound to wherever the room does not get it directly.

 

I've been on both ends of the deal for a looong time. That whole "soundman must control everything" is nonsense.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Tell that to Deep Purple or Motley Crue. The stage volume should NOT be kept down unless the band wants it that way . Go to a James Taylor concert and I'd expect stage volume to be kept kinda low. Go see Alice in Chains, and..... ????? This is why I start the mix by giving the band what they want onstage. Because as alcohol has implied, in a smaller venue the stage sound can often carry the load. I agree the stage volume should not be 138db, but there should be no problem whatsoever with a drummer who's hitting the drums and a bassist & guitarist balanced with that. For most guitarists, this also happens to be in their tone sweet spot , that point where their tube amps are running high enough to give the tone they strive for AND some feedback if desired. From there, the instruments get balanced in the monitors and the vox added on top. Long as the singer's comfortable at that point, you're good to go - you then use the PA merely to roll out that stage sound to wherever the room does not get it directly. I've been on both ends of the deal for a looong time. That whole "soundman must control everything" is nonsense.

 

 

You might be very surprised how low the stage volume will be at an Alice in Chains show. There's no beating the physics. If the stage is huge, you can get away with louder amps being further from the vocal mics. But if the vocal mic is getting hit with 115dB from the lead guitar, that vox mic is gonna pick it up. Period. As I wrote earlier, you either care about the vocals or you don't.

 

It's only nonsense for the soundman to control everything if the band thinks they can do a better job of hearing and judging what the audience hears. You hired the guy to run sound. Then you tell him not to. You may as well just set the board yourself, leave it unattended during the show, and save yourself the money of hiring anyone.

[DaBender]

"If you can't notice the beaming of a 4x12 cabinet, you aren't listening closely or your'e playing a narrow enough room that it doesn't matter."

 

Since I mentioned not noticing the beaming, I'll respond.

 

"The single 12" amp our lead uses covers much more evenly than the rythyms 4x12".".

 

As I said, my favorite bands always played open-back Fenders, not a Marshall in the bunch. While I've heard 4x10 Super Reverbs and I love my 1964 4x10 Concert, I've never spent any real time listening to a 4x12.

[coyote-1]

Why do you insist on portraying it as an all/nothing? That's a false dichotomy, and it unnecessarily pits the soundman against the band.

 

You seem to view it as a) soundman creating the sound, with the band there merely to provide raw material. I view it is b) BAND creating the music and sound, and the soundman's job is to get that sound to the audience. Scenario (b) can certainly be achieved while caring about vocals.

 

If all you care about is pristine sound, then let the soundman control the entire show. IMO it's about more than that. A performance must account for everything, and you certainly don't need to hear the vox with pristine clarity at a Slipknot show - you know? Give me a great performance with great sound over a mediocre performance with flawless sound any day.

 

You might be very surprised how low the stage volume will be at an Alice in Chains show. There's no beating the physics. If the stage is huge, you can get away with louder amps being further from the vocal mics. But if the vocal mic is getting hit with 115dB from the lead guitar, that vox mic is gonna pick it up. Period. As I wrote earlier, you either care about the vocals or you don't. It's only nonsense for the soundman to control everything if the band thinks they can do a better job of hearing and judging what the audience hears. You hired the guy to run sound. Then you tell him not to. You may as well just set the board yourself, leave it unattended during the show, and save yourself the money of hiring anyone.

 

[GZsound]

I think there is a simple solution.

 

Since I run sound for my band from stage, we record most of our live shows so we know what is going on. Playing with professionals, they know that if they were too loud in the recording, the next time they need to be less loud..period.

 

Any ongoing discussion about what the band wants and what the soundman wants can be easily put to rest if the band is recorded.

 

If they are hearing on the recording what they think they want to sound like then they are doing it right. If the soundman is making them sound like they don't want to sound, then it is his fault.

 

Guitars certainly get their sound from the guitar and the amp. But that's a given with every instrument. The instrument and the method of reinforcement is what makes the "sound".

 

If the guitars are louder than the vocals and that's the way the band wants it then that's how it should be. Let the audience decide if the band sucks or not.

 

Personally, being really, really "old school", I won't play on stage with guitar players, bass players or drummers that feel they have to be loud to be good. It simply isn't so.

 

Record the band. There is simply no other way they have a clue what they sound like in the audience.

[dravenzouk]

Guitar guy in my band has a Mesa half-stack - 4x12 cabinet. The beaming affect is absolutely amazing. In our rehearsal space and on stage you can be standing in one place and literally not hear him at all, but take one step and be just pummeled with volume, even drowning out the drums. Happens even if you are 15 or 20 feet away (or more). Which means that if he is not in the PA, about 2-3 people are blasted by him and the rest hear nothing. I hate that cabinet. This guy tends to go for lots of high end screechy tone which just makes the problem worse.

 

We've had other guitarists that had similiarly configured cabs (4x12's with closed backs and angled tops), but they were either Marshalls or Carvins and we never had any problems with those. I don't know what it is about the Mesa, but it has absolutely no spread whatsoever.

 

In our case, it is a total necessity for the guitar to be in the PA. There is no way we could get away with letting his amp provide the coverage.

[coyote-1]

I'm like every other musician-turned-soundguy in that I come to mixing with a musician's ear and viewpoint.

 

Unlike most of them, I've played 'all' the instruments (bass, gtr, keys, drums, etc - along with vox!) in live performance settings. So I don't come in as a frustrated _____player, prone to mixing that instrument on top. And I'm fully aware of the need for good vocal sound.

 

I know that when a soundguy tries too hard to control every aspect of the show, it can get on a band's nerves. Pristine sound from a band that's annoyed at the soundguy and therefore perhaps off their game is definitely inferior to less-than-pristine sound from a band that's kickin' butt.

[flanc]

 

Tell that to Deep Purple or Motley Crue. The stage volume should NOT be kept down unless the band wants it that way . Go to a James Taylor concert and I'd expect stage volume to be kept kinda low. Go see Alice in Chains, and..... ????? This is why I start the mix by giving the band what they want onstage. Because as alcohol has implied, in a smaller venue the stage sound can often carry the load. I agree the stage volume should not be 138db, but there should be no problem whatsoever with a drummer who's hitting the drums and a bassist & guitarist balanced with that. For most guitarists, this also happens to be in their tone sweet spot , that point where their tube amps are running high enough to give the tone they strive for AND some feedback if desired. From there, the instruments get balanced in the monitors and the vox added on top. Long as the singer's comfortable at that point, you're good to go - you then use the PA merely to roll out that stage sound to wherever the room does not get it directly. I've been on both ends of the deal for a looong time. That whole "soundman must control everything" is nonsense.

 

 

Alice in Chains will likely play a huge venue with a big stage that can accommodate a louder stage volume. In a small to medium bar a loud guitarist will force the soundman to raise the volume of the rest of the band to a a good mix. Sometimes that good mix is at a volume that is louder than the club owners would like. So..they come over and tell you to turn down. The soundman turns down...and then the singers girlfriend comes over and says " you can't hear the vocals".

 

In the end...if you are working for the band...you'll do the best to make them happy and sound great. It sucks for a soundguy when making the band happy, comes at the detriment of having them sound good (I gotta have more cowbell!). I guess in those instances, it's better for the band to have a soundguy who is more on the same page.