Members Phil Clark Posted June 22, 2007 Members Share Posted June 22, 2007 I think there is a simple solution. Since I run sound for my band from stage, we record most of our live shows so we know what is going on. Playing with professionals, they know that if they were too loud in the recording, the next time they need to be less loud..period. So, the sound can/will be bad/less than optimal for that show? And what if you over compensate next time? Two bad sounding shows. A sound engineer out front can fix those problems on the fly, no need to wait until the next show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lifeloverwg Posted June 22, 2007 Members Share Posted June 22, 2007 "If you can't notice the beaming of a 4x12 cabinet, you aren't listening closely or your'e playing a narrow enough room that it doesn't matter."Since I mentioned not noticing the beaming, I'll respond."The single 12" amp our lead uses covers much more evenly than the rythyms 4x12".".As I said, my favorite bands always played open-back Fenders, not a Marshall in the bunch. While I've heard 4x10 Super Reverbs and I love my 1964 4x10 Concert, I've never spent any real time listening to a 4x12. And I'll respond again. Agedhorse summed it up better than I did with my short response. They beam at higher frequencies so it's not so much that some people can't hear it as much as those that are in the beam get nasty sound. Kinda like being right in the throat of a bad horn compared to slightly off axis. Our 4x12 is an open back Fender and I still notice it not having as even a sound as the single 12 Fender when I move around the room. I really have no problem with bands blending themselves from on stage and some can do it very well, but I don't buy into the argument that it makes for a better more dynamic mix unless the person available to mix is worthless. As in most things audio, it all depends on so many factors. Sorry if I insulted your ears, Winston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted June 22, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted June 22, 2007 Why do you insist on portraying it as an all/nothing? That's a false dichotomy, and it unnecessarily pits the soundman against the band.You seem to view it as a) soundman creating the sound, with the band there merely to provide raw material. I view it is b) BAND creating the music and sound, and the soundman's job is to get that sound to the audience. Scenario (b) can certainly be achieved while caring about vocals.If all you care about is pristine sound, then let the soundman control the entire show. IMO it's about more than that. A performance must account for everything, and you certainly don't need to hear the vox with pristine clarity at a Slipknot show - you know? Give me a great performance with great sound over a mediocre performance with flawless sound any day. How the hell do you come up with "soundman creating the sound" from what I wrote? Yes, the soundman's job is to get the band's sound to the audience. But tieing his hands by saddling the show with totally unnecessary excessive stage volume is no better than telling him to mix from out in the parking lot. Which is why I suggested to the OP to let the soundman know his wishes ahead of time...so he doesn't have to waste time trying to make the band sound good. Don't just show up, hand the guy your mic cable, not communicate anything to him, and then get pissed because he's doing his job trying to make the mix sound right. And I'm not saying any way is 'better' than any other. I went out of my way to suggest that you do indeed have to make a decision about what's important to the performance. If the vocals don't matter, crank your stacks, have at it, and enjoy the show. But understand that most sound men will attempt to make the band sound like the CD version of the band's live show, not like what they sounded like as a garage band. If he didn't get the memo, he has no way of knowing you don't care about the vocals as much as having the guitar amps on fire. And if you really can't put out 110% without the guitar peeling paint, get yourself some IEM's, ask for more guitar in your mix, and away you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted June 22, 2007 Members Share Posted June 22, 2007 Here's the nutshell of the situation. For some kind of guitar playing the interaction of the sound of the amp with the guitar is necessary. Secondly, while I agree that the band onstage doesn't have the best idea of how they sound in front, why shouldn't another person be able to advise them on turning up or down, instead of it needing to be controlled by another person? Thirdly, there's as much discrepency in the quality of soundmen as there is musicianship. Same room, different person on sound, different results. The last person who did sound for us was a joke for us and all the other bands. For starters, the snare drum mic was clipping for all the bands. He fed the drummer the drum mix through the monitors, the guitar player the guitar sound through his monitor and the bass player, the bass sound through his monitors. The Fender Deluxe from one of the other bands sounded louder and more piercing than our 4x12 Marshall 50 watt, from out front. If you can't hear your amp on stage, you're not placing it properly. You don't need a monitor for your amp if you know what you're doing. Fourthly, I am old school, where musicians modulated their sound to the room. I remain old school, because when musicians can do that, it sounds better than depending on a PA system which flattens the sound and makes it less dynamic. I'm old-school rock and roll/blues guitarist/vocalist too. Our band gets a great stage sound/mix. Our amps are turned in so that we can all hear each other just fine w/o putting anything other than vocals(acoustic guitar when I use it) through the monitors. I do use sidefills for wide stages and outdoor stuff. I have enough volume and liveliness so that I can coax octave feedback out of my amp when desired, etc. And then the PA brings our stage sound sound to the audience, as it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted June 22, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted June 22, 2007 Why do you insist on portraying it as an all/nothing? That's a false dichotomy, and it unnecessarily pits the soundman against the band. I wanted to address this separately from my other response. I didn't portray the issue as an all/nothing, and I really don't understand why you're trying to make it seem like a controversial issue at all. There's the performance, and there's the production. There needs to be interaction between the two, and each *must* have an understanding of the limits and possiblilities of each other's crafts. This means the musicians need to understand what's going on with the sound system....not just their guitar and amp. The sound person needs to understand the goals of the show and how the musicians expect to accomplish it. If the vocalist hears a playback of the night's show and says, "Bloody 'ell, you can't 'ear me!", he needs to understand why that happened. To just beat the sound guy with demands to put up with cranked double-stacks only means the sound gets compromised, or the production costs have to increase because the show needs 5x more PA gear and has to play large-stage venues. That's a definite, as there's no "easy button'' to fix it. There's no false dichotomy because the issues have no distinct borders and the roles of all members of the show overlap to varying degrees. If I were producing your band there'd be no pitting of me against the band; I'd ask what you want to do, let you know what to expect, and we'd go on from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted June 23, 2007 Members Share Posted June 23, 2007 Generally the PA system is 10X or more insufficent. Generally the back line gear is 10X or more beyond sufficent. Seldom does anybody ever get it, that 10x the power is only 2X the perception. To get a "match"... the backline gear either needs to come down by a 10X factor, or the FOH needs to be increased by a 100X factor. If increasing the FOH by a 100X factor is analogis to a firehose filling a dixiecup, and if that's just stupid, then the backline needs to play under the FOH capacity. BTW: A match won't get the leads in the audience's face. In your face requires another 6dB. This is why 10KW FOH systems exist with 60w guitar amps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members alcohol Posted June 23, 2007 Author Members Share Posted June 23, 2007 How loud is a typical R&R drummer these days? Pretty damn loud and it's pretty damn hard to tell them to play like a pit drummer in a Broadway orchestra. In my opinion a 4x12 Marshall 50 watt amp stands up to such a drummer. It doesn't need to be turned up all the way, nor have to drown the drummer out. Indeed I believe the desire for a bigger, louder amp is to stand up to a loud drummer. I've been a lot of places and some small clubs have no difficulty with a 50 watt Marshall through a 4x12, an 8x10 bass cab with 400 watts or so and a loud drummer. So from my experience of hearing other sound men face this situation, I know it can sound good. So why are some sound men wanting to soften things up onstage when others are completely capable dealing with the situation and getting a great sound? Some sound men deal with this situation elegantly, some are unnecessary control freaks IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moody Posted June 23, 2007 Members Share Posted June 23, 2007 Depending on the given guitar amp, the sound from onstage can be different from virtually every different area in the room. Hence spreading it out with the PA. Open back combos are generally better at dispersion than closed back, and closed back quads are probably the worst. On the other hand, bass amps given the correct amount of power are quite ok running without going through the PA in a given situation. The lower frequencies aren't nearly as directional as guitar. I was in a situation on thursday night watching a band in which the guitarist had a little orange 1x12 combo angle at 45 degrees to the audience. Half the audience was getting it way to loud, the other wasn't getting anywhere near enough. In the given situation he just turned it full on to the crowd during the set break but micing would have probably given a better result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 23, 2007 Members Share Posted June 23, 2007 Some R&R drummers play with dynamics and play with really good volumes. The more professional the act, the more likely to encounter this.On the other hand, the less professional the act, the more likely to encounter out of control drummers, and less competant sound folks... and poor arrangements, less playing like a group and more like a free for all. Funny how this seems to work more often than not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted June 23, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted June 23, 2007 How loud is a typical R&R drummer these days? Pretty damn loud and it's pretty damn hard to tell them to play like a pit drummer in a Broadway orchestra. In my opinion a 4x12 Marshall 50 watt amp stands up to such a drummer. It doesn't need to be turned up all the way, nor have to drown the drummer out. Indeed I believe the desire for a bigger, louder amp is to stand up to a loud drummer. I've been a lot of places and some small clubs have no difficulty with a 50 watt Marshall through a 4x12, an 8x10 bass cab with 400 watts or so and a loud drummer. So from my experience of hearing other sound men face this situation, I know it can sound good. So why are some sound men wanting to soften things up onstage when others are completely capable dealing with the situation and getting a great sound? Some sound men deal with this situation elegantly, some are unnecessary control freaks IMHO. It's not about control, but I'm getting the impression that you and some others simply feel that any soundman asking you to do something to improve *your* performance makes him a "control freak". I've played in bands with the gear you describe in small venues. If you crank it, getting a good mix is hopeless. If you keep it under control, it works fine. The 'typical R&R drummer' these days is the same as they've always been. There are guys who can't play with any dynamic control, and there are pros who can play to the song. Just as with all musicians. As soon as you realize it's not all about you, you've taken the first step toward being a professional musician in a band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members alcohol Posted June 23, 2007 Author Members Share Posted June 23, 2007 Maybe the sound man's idea of improving our performance isn't correct and he needs some re-education, because getting a good sound with a cranked amp is happening every night in small clubs all over this great nation of ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moody Posted June 23, 2007 Members Share Posted June 23, 2007 Maybe the sound man's idea of improving our performance isn't correct and he needs some re-education, because getting a good sound with a cranked amp is happening every night in small clubs all over this great nation of ours. Ok then. .... It's possible that your individual particular sound man isn't correct, but there seems to be a majority here that don't agree to your position. From my own experience as a bass player, (and I've dabbled in guitar - it doesn't agree with me). The majority of small clubs running unmiced guitars sound way to loud to begin with. A soundperson can not do anything with that without having the guitars turned down to begin with. If an amp needs to be cranked in order to get the sound you want, then get a smaller amp. The worst thing for me, and this happens a lot in the bands I've been in, is the guitarists saying "I'm not loud, my amp is only on two", where that volume is incredibly blaring. volume should be in what we hear, not a setting on your amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarharv52 Posted June 23, 2007 Members Share Posted June 23, 2007 It would seem important to play to the room you are in.What does it take to get the best sound tonight.Showing up at a small club with a 100 watt tube amp wanting to saturate your power tubes to get "that" sound may not be the right tool for the job.I guess I'm in the middle because I like a real amp(and monitor wedges too) but keep it at a volume to where I can get the feel I want but still need it in the mix.This is a topic that has gone on for decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tremendo Posted June 23, 2007 Members Share Posted June 23, 2007 Side note: I recently got a Lonestar Special amp, 5/15/30 watt switchable. That helps get good tube overdrive at lower levels when needed. But even the 5 watt option can be pretty loud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhat Posted June 23, 2007 Members Share Posted June 23, 2007 Ok then. ....It's possible that your individual particular sound man isn't correct, but there seems to be a majority here that don't agree to your position.bands performed for years without a sound man and monitors.... a good many still do. It takes knowing how to do it. Its an aquired skill that not many today have had to learn. If a band sounds like ass ... some mics on the amps and drums and a guy at a big mixer board isnt going to change it a whole lot. Miced {censored} is still {censored}. It pretty well boils down to the fact that most bands sound like crap becasue they are just too darn loud and turn things into mush. The band can do it themselves or they can do it with the help of a soundman. music all starts at the volume knob. If you know how to run them as a group...... you dont need a sound man. rat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Danny (NS::U) Posted June 23, 2007 Members Share Posted June 23, 2007 I've been a lot of places and some small clubs have no difficulty with a 50 watt Marshall through a 4x12, an 8x10 bass cab with 400 watts or so and a loud drummer. So from my experience of hearing other sound men face this situation, I know it can sound good. So why are some sound men wanting to soften things up onstage when others are completely capable dealing with the situation and getting a great sound? Some sound men deal with this situation elegantly, some are unnecessary control freaks IMHO. I'm willing to bet that those clubs are getting into the 110 db SPL C range at FOH, so as to get everything balanced. That is really loud - like permanent damage in 15 - 30 minutes loud. So - maybe they "dealt with it," but they were sledgehammering the audience in the process. Part of my job is doing as few unsafe things as possible, and if you're causing me to have to flatten my audience in order to attempt to get some sort of music out of the howling vortex of white noise from the stage, I'm probably going to say something about it. I have heard all kinds of things at 95 - 100 dB SPL C that I thought had great impact and fantastic, listenable blends. Going above those numbers, the music that I've heard that I thought was enjoyable drops off like a 48 db/ octave filter. Sure, the performer being able to actually perform is incredibly important - but if getting your "vibe" steamrolls the audience, then your "vibe" must become subservient to the show at large. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary in NJ Posted June 24, 2007 Members Share Posted June 24, 2007 Suggestion to alcohol: Rent a large rehearsal space that has a PA. Try mixing the sound the way you believe it should be done, and then how it is being suggested by 99,9% of the respondents. Be sure to listen from all spaces in the room. Bring a SPL meter too. But most importantly, bring your objectivity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted June 24, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted June 24, 2007 bands performed for years without a sound man and monitors.... a good many still do. It takes knowing how to do it. Its an aquired skill that not many today have had to learn. If a band sounds like ass ... some mics on the amps and drums and a guy at a big mixer board isnt going to change it a whole lot. Miced {censored} is still {censored}. It pretty well boils down to the fact that most bands sound like crap becasue they are just too darn loud and turn things into mush. The band can do it themselves or they can do it with the help of a soundman. music all starts at the volume knob. If you know how to run them as a group...... you dont need a sound man. rat The point is that, as you wrote, when it sounds like {censored} because it's too loud, and you've got a soundman telling you to turn it down, these guys are flipping him the bird. And the issue isn't about {censored} bands. It's about potentially good bands that sound like ass because one or more members are selfish. And let's face it....in so many cases this isn't as much about "getting my sound" as it is, "getting my sound louder than the rest of the band so everyone hears ME, ME, ME....". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members joslynch Posted June 24, 2007 Members Share Posted June 24, 2007 Recently I did sound for a band in Norfolk, VA where I encountered this classic problem. 2 guitar players on stage, both with double stacks turned up high. The bands starts their first set in this 250 capacity bar and soon the owner asks me to turn down the volume. I explain that all the volume is coming from the guitar amps and I ask them to turn down to be met with 'I need that volume to get my tone'. Owner and manager come to me together and say that the customers are leaving due to the volume (117 db at about 30 feet from the stage - I measured it). Owner and manager ask me into the Men's restroom (the only place we can hear each-other speak) and threaten to pull the power if nothing is done. On the next song break I ask, owner asks to turn down the guitar amps without any result. As usual, fans of the band are complaining that they cannot hear the vocals, customers are leaving and the owner wil never book the band again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted June 24, 2007 Members Share Posted June 24, 2007 The owner should have been speaking to the band directly, IMO.Owner and manager ask me into the Men's restroom (the only place we can hear each-other speak) and threaten to pull the power if nothing is done. On the next song break I ask, owner asks to turn down the guitar amps without any result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members witesol Posted June 24, 2007 Members Share Posted June 24, 2007 I've run into this a couple of times with my son's hard rock band. They use their amps and the way the amps interact with their guitars to shape their sound. They feel able to control their dynamics and balance the sound onstage. The venues they play are clubs that hold no more than 2 to 3 hundred people. I and the band prefer the sounds of the guitar and bass directly from the stage, directly from the amp. They have equipment that's large enough for these rooms. They have enough skill to modulate their dynamics to fit the room. Maybe some enhancement from the PA, but the bulk of their sound should be coming directly from their amps not the PA. We've had soundmen that want them to turn down their amps so that they can be better controlled by the soundman. So the soundman "mixes" them instead of them balancing their own sound. When they play I'm in the audience and will make suggestions to help. I personally think that in a small club, the contrasts of the music coming from different areas from the stage sounds better and more dynamic than being blended into the PA and for small clubs look to the PA for vocal needs and some enhancement of the bass drum and snare. So I want to know when did a mic going through a PA become an improvement in sound over the actual amp? These are not places where feedback is a problem. So the stage volume of the amps is not contributing to feedback. It isn't a feedback problem but seems like a conflict of philosophy. Shouldn't the soundman accommodate the act instead of vis versa? I'll revisit your original post. a few random thoughts on your ideas and questions:-I rarely work with and act that really knows how to control and mix onstage what the audience hears as a complete mix. Even name acts have trouble knowing when the stage volume has creeped past the point of having to raise everything else to balance.-I would guess that your son's band doesn't care that much about vocals. In a lot of what I mix for people the vocals are the number one priority over the guitarist's tone.-very rarely has a band that I've worked with made all the right mix choices and I can simply bring up the vocals accordingly. Even on experienced bands. I hate when I'm trying to have the vocals sit on top of the too-loud stage volume and the whole mix gets too big for the venue.-I really don't know that many guitar players, or have worked with that many, who have a true idea of what good tone is. Often they rehearse, record and play so many times without anyone mentioning anything about their tone and continually use a harsh, ugly, unpleasing sound week after week, sometimes for years.They get used to it. A soundman, or studio engineer comes along and mentions that their tone could use work and it's like "WTF do you know" Same thing with volume, I often work with bands at rehearsals, most play too loud, week after week.-since when is the sound of a mic'd up amp not the sound of the amp onstage?-equipment large enough to cover a 300 person club/venue from the stage will undoubtedly wipe out any chance that a single 12" monitor for vocals onstage would be useful. So, feedback will be related to stage volume if anyone cares to hear some vocals. A 412 cab/810 SVT vs a single 12 vocal monitor..do the math-turning down an amp to a reasonable level usually does nothing to degrade the interaction of guitar to amp. Most newer amps don't relay on power stage overdrive sweet spots(like vintage Fenders and Marshalls) as much as preamp shaping. Again, most guitar players, especially younger ones, don't really have a handle on how their tone fits the bigger picture very well in my experience. If I suggest that a player turn down his amp so I can better blend the entire band and get the "that's my/our tone" response, I'll try and share some wisdom and maybe be one of the only people to switch on some self-awareness.-putting a mic on an amp doesn't change the dynamics of a band with the exception of very quiet bands, having lots of DI stuff and the channels are heavily compressed.-I'll sound like old, jaded control freak soundman here but most of the younger bands I work with just don't have a handle on blend, tones and volume. How many times have I heard that the band is too loud, turn them down? It's nearly impossible to explain that all I have up on the board is the lead vocal. People come up to me, not the band. It IS my job to make recommendations to the players. But, I'm really good at what I do and for the most part, people hire me to handle the event. I suppose I'm just as rare as a band that knows when tones and volumes are within reason...or good.-a solution to not knowing if the control freak soundman knows what he's doing is not providing all the volume needed for the venue from the stage.-at a certain level on the musical food chain you'll likely to encounter mediocre bands and soundmen both. Sure, sometimes exceptions to both. Luckily I don't have to mix in the bottom feeder, 3 crappy bands-per night places anymore. How often was i truly surprised at a band's maturity, tones and stage levels altogether? rarely. I bet you'll find better soundmen in those same instances/venues> Why? Typically the bands don't get paid, the soundman does. But that's not the only reason.-it should be a clear, unanimous decision to prefer a good soundman to control the mix over letting the band decide. Simply put, listening to the soundman's work should tell you all you need to know. So, should the soundman accomodate the act's complete wishes and simply make due with what is given? No. Even on "name" acts I think you'll find the soundman's suggestions about stage volume being taken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted June 24, 2007 Members Share Posted June 24, 2007 Suggestion to alcohol: But most importantly, bring your objectivity. Somehow, I think that part will get conveniently left at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members alcohol Posted June 24, 2007 Author Members Share Posted June 24, 2007 Some people here only want to hear the sound of their own voices, don't read what I've written, and speculate upon situations that don't match my own or what I've indicated. In order to justify their positions they place me in the little boxes of their own limited experience. Fine. Believe what you want, but don't talk to me about objectivity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted June 25, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted June 25, 2007 Some people here only want to hear the sound of their own voices, don't read what I've written, and speculate upon situations that don't match my own or what I've indicated. In order to justify their positions they place me in the little boxes of their own limited experience. Fine. Believe what you want, but don't talk to me about objectivity. If you've got issues with responses, address them directly by point, not with this passive-aggressive "some people" crap. It just makes you appear to be whining. There are a lot of reasoned responses in this thread, and this post was uncalled-for. I don't see anything you've written above that doesn't apply completely to you. You did ask a question in your first post didn't you? Well, you're getting answers to it, but you seem to be getting annoyed that they don't all agree with you. The replies aren't "speculating", they're relating other experiences and opinions. That's pretty much necessary unless everyone here is always with you at gigs. And accusing/insulting with the comment about "limited experience"...how vast is yours? If you're posting just to state an opinion or to rant to get something off your chest, state that from the start. But if you ask a question, expect answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members congaron Posted June 25, 2007 Members Share Posted June 25, 2007 In my band, the stage volume issue resurfaces from time to time, since I am still mixing us from the stage. I have a helper with an spl meter out in the audience. At our last gig...in a gymnasium...I ended up using almost no mains to drive this point home to some of us. We have discussed it again, using this information. I think as long as people sing and play guitars (and I do both myself), there will be this discussion....over and over and over. God bless! -Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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