Members HairyScaryMark Posted June 28, 2007 Members Share Posted June 28, 2007 IF the stage volume really is being dictated by the drums, tell the drummer to get his volume down. It can be done. Good luck. Believe me, i've tried. My point however was. The guitar amplifier shouldn't be turned up any louder than necessary to get a good guitar tone on stage. Sometimes loud enough to compete with drummer but stage monitors can compensate for that, to some extent. I have done sound or spoken to sound engineers before at gigs where the stage monitors ended up being louder than the PA system. Directional sound frequencies mean this is not to be desired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted June 28, 2007 Members Share Posted June 28, 2007 So we're left with this insane bass-ackwards concept of the band working for the soundman. I think much of this argument is perspective. The band IS my customer, and I am paid by them, not by the club. If you hire a landscape designer to design your yard and then refuse to listen to what they tell you, you didn't need to hire that designer. You pay them for RESULTS. I work like an "audio landscape" designer. If you don't like my finished product, don't hire me again. If I continue to work with bands that don't perform to their potential then it won't help them achieve their goals, and it won't help my reputation as a FOH guy. I don't rent PA gear...I rent what I know about sounding good, and I bring the tools of my trade as a bonus. Bands can take it or leave it. I stay busy. Thats my perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members alcohol Posted June 28, 2007 Author Members Share Posted June 28, 2007 I talked to the guys in the band about this thread, and they asked which one of you guys has heard them play live? None, so they thought that any judgements about them were invalid. The bars depend upon bands in Boston as much as the bands depend on bars. Without a band, many of these places would be empty. These bars don't pay the band, the band gets the door and sometimes has to pay some expenses for the room out of the door count. The soundman often gets paid from the door count, so he really works for the band not the house. This was actually the situation at this particular gig. If the guys were as bad as some of these comments have suggested, the band wouldn't have a following and the clubs wouldn't be asking them for future dates. The band is on a roll, they have fans and fill clubs, their success suggests that they know what they are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BigMac5 Posted June 28, 2007 Members Share Posted June 28, 2007 I talked to the guys in the band about this thread, and they asked which one of you guys has heard them play live? None, so they thought that any judgements about them were invalid. The bars depend upon bands in Boston as much as the bands depend on bars. Without a band, many of these places would be empty. These bars don't pay the band, the band gets the door and sometimes has to pay some expenses for the room out of the door count. The soundman often gets paid from the door count, so he really works for the band not the house. This was actually the situation at this particular gig. If the guys were as bad as some of these comments have suggested, the band wouldn't have a following and the clubs wouldn't be asking them for future dates. The band is on a roll, they have fans and fill clubs, their success suggests that they know what they are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gregidon Posted June 28, 2007 Members Share Posted June 28, 2007 +1 lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members coyote-1 Posted June 28, 2007 Members Share Posted June 28, 2007 So... you are saying that, as a landscape designer, you refuse to accept the customer's input? That they "take it or leave it" with your design, that there's zero room for negotiation or input?WOW. Just wow.I think much of this argument is perspective. The band IS my customer, and I am paid by them, not by the club.If you hire a landscape designer to design your yard and then refuse to listen to what they tell you, you didn't need to hire that designer. You pay them for RESULTS. I work like an "audio landscape" designer. If you don't like my finished product, don't hire me again. If I continue to work with bands that don't perform to their potential then it won't help them achieve their goals, and it won't help my reputation as a FOH guy. I don't rent PA gear...I rent what I know about sounding good, and I bring the tools of my trade as a bonus. Bands can take it or leave it. I stay busy. Thats my perspective.If I hire a designer to do MY property, I fully expect that designer will create a design that incorporates the elements I WANT. If he/she is such a control freak that no input's possible, I won't hire that person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted June 28, 2007 Members Share Posted June 28, 2007 If your input hurts the design, I won't accept it. I don't care if you hire me again. I care about the finished product much more than money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 28, 2007 Members Share Posted June 28, 2007 Ouch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 28, 2007 Members Share Posted June 28, 2007 How come it has to be either 100% one way or the other. I generally find it more productive to work out a solution together, though I have come across bands who are so set in their ways (usually because of limited perspective) as to sabatoge their own show. Whenever I come across a band that is so fixated on their solution, even when it's clearly not working for the audience or the venue (and maybe not even for themselves) and continue to dig themselves deeper into the hole I am amazed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members coyote-1 Posted June 28, 2007 Members Share Posted June 28, 2007 What if you come to the table believing that ANY input will hurt the product, but can be shown that some input might actually help???If your input hurts the design, I won't accept it. I don't care if you hire me again. I care about the finished product much more than money.And here we must return to the concept of overall presentation rather than mere pristine sound."How can that be??" the soundman asked.....Think back to the band Emerson Lake & Palmer. Think about the studio recording of KarnEvel9. There are a few of what my ex-drummer labeled glaring errors, with Palmer in particular clearly rushing out of fills in at least two places. My ex-drummer stated many times there's no way he'd tolerate such a thing.But ELP addressed this in various interviews. They had cleaner, more error-free takes on that material. But they did NOT have takes that had "the thing", that intangible that makes a performance great. So in the end they decided to use those paticular tracks, warts and all. Because the whole was far greater than the sum of its occasionally flawed parts.Now.... if toning down the drummer and toning down the guitarist diminishes the vibe that helps make a band's performance great, is it worthwhile just to get a little less bleed in the singer's mic? I vote NOT - and I know at least a few singers who'd vote with me.PLEASE UNDERSTAND I'm not arguing for lunacy! If a guitarist absolutely must crank the Marshalls to 128db AND point them directly at the singer, there's not much you can do. But I've known sound guys who have no trouble delivering a good mix from a loud band. So I have to presume that any sound guy who knows his craft can do likewise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 28, 2007 Members Share Posted June 28, 2007 Exactly how can you deliver a good mix from a band that without PA is already too loud for the audience? There's nowhere to go but up in that example and 115dB or 120dB FOH mix is not acceptable to me or many club owners. It's downright dangerous and painful, and violates employee work rules. It also interferes with drink sales, and drives customers out of the establishment. maybe if you and everyone else wears ear plugs... but that's a silly solution IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted June 28, 2007 Members Share Posted June 28, 2007 I never argued that point. ALL of the bands I mix are loud, and thats one reason I get gigs. I don't complain about volume, but I do complain about balance. Even in clubs with 200 people I am running over 10K watts (8k FOH, and 2.5K mons) with a system capable of a sustained 130db at 1 meter. I use 2 single 18" subs under an EV mon for drum fill in those same clubs. I mic everything (usually around 25 channels a night get used.) I know when to use the volume and when not to. As AH said, 115-20 db at FOH is too much and I don't like going there. I also mix intimate jazz and country club wedding bands. That has taught me balance and control. I can handle volume and work with it (one band has 3 guitarist with half stacks, a bass player with SVT, keyboards, large drum set, and 5 vocalists.) If you ask for something I will give it to you, UNLESS it doesn't work. I am not there to hold your hand. I am not your YES man. I am there to make it sound right for people in the club, and to get you rehired by the club. I won't stroke an ego. I won't sell you my mix for a paycheck. I will listen to your ideas and use them or not depending on if I think they work....but it will be my final call because it is also my reputation on the line as much as yours. If at the end of the night you don't like the mix, or the club complained, then don't call me again. Thats fine.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lonotes Posted June 28, 2007 Members Share Posted June 28, 2007 How come it has to be either 100% one way or the other. Because cooperation and compromise don't lend themselves to argument and vilification? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 28, 2007 Members Share Posted June 28, 2007 Axisplayer... I hope you wear ear plugs. The damage you may sustain without them will last your entire life.lonotes... good point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lonotes Posted June 28, 2007 Members Share Posted June 28, 2007 lonotes... good point ...but I wear a hat, so most people don't notice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted June 28, 2007 Members Share Posted June 28, 2007 Andy, I carry them always, but just because the system is big for the venues doesn't mean I let it get out of control. I know about damage because I did sustain some from years of playing loud in 1960's when we had no big PA's or monitors. Now I prefer mellower, but I seldom complain about stage volume within any sort of reason. My rule of thumb...if it's too loud for me, it's too loud for anybody else. In fact, although I have had one manager ask to soften it (about 3 db) in the last few years, the more usual request is can I turn it up a little (comes from club owner...not drunk patrons.) I know my limits and live by them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 28, 2007 Members Share Posted June 28, 2007 Keep getting your ears tested though, and do use ear plugs when getting loud. Accumulated damage can really sneak up on you. This applies to everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miket156 Posted June 28, 2007 Members Share Posted June 28, 2007 Quote by Alcohol: "I talked to the guys in the band about this thread, and they asked which one of you guys has heard them play live? None, so they thought that any judgements about them were invalid". Have any members of your band seen gravity? NO, but its there. Alcohol, you started a thread to get vindication from professional soundmen. You didn't get the answer you wanted, so now you say that "any judgements about them were invalid". Ha. Why don't you take your marbles and pound sand? If you don't like the advice you're getting here, go hang out on another forum. :arg: Mike T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members alcohol Posted June 28, 2007 Author Members Share Posted June 28, 2007 Quote by Alcohol: "I talked to the guys in the band about this thread, and they asked which one of you guys has heard them play live? None, so they thought that any judgements about them were invalid". Have any members of your band seen gravity? NO, but its there. Alcohol, you started a thread to get vindication from professional soundmen. You didn't get the answer you wanted, so now you say that "any judgements about them were invalid". Ha. Why don't you take your marbles and pound sand? If you don't like the advice you're getting here, go hang out on another forum. :arg: Mike T. No I didn't start the thread to get vindication. I started the thread to state an opinion and have a conversation. Maybe even influence some people. I certainly have learned something here. Hasn't been the most polite conversation, but we got 6 pages worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members witesol Posted June 28, 2007 Members Share Posted June 28, 2007 I did go listen to the band's demo on the site you listed. I like to know where someone is coming from, see where their skill level is. I liked the songs and band for the most part, a reasonable recording too. some things we don't have to hear to pass judgement on. I can pretty much bet that your son's band's stage volume is way past where I'd want as a singer. Some folks confuse how well the band comes across to the audience with a viable sound reinforcement technique or playing style to employ by everybody. Heck, I've done that myself too: the band kicks ass and that makes me remember the gig as perfectly balanced and I had the killer tone from hell. as far as the analogy to the landscape architect being hired to shut up and take orders, I'd think a wise man would take the advice and expertise of a professional and work together. The homeowner has ideas, the landscape engineer implements them and relies on his years of experience to steer him clear of pitfalls and. Retaining one's hearing and not not getting vocal nodes might be a couple of the pitfalls of trying to play a 300 person club with only stage volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 28, 2007 Members Share Posted June 28, 2007 A landscape architect that blindly follows a homeowner's request, that then causes runoff damage to a neighbor's property, is presumed to know better (that's what the license is there for) and exposes himself to liability and lawsuits for damage caused. That's why I would run away from a proposal like that. Same applies to most trades actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted June 28, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted June 28, 2007 I talked to the guys in the band about this thread, and they asked which one of you guys has heard them play live? None, so they thought that any judgements about them were invalid. The bars depend upon bands in Boston as much as the bands depend on bars. Without a band, many of these places would be empty. These bars don't pay the band, the band gets the door and sometimes has to pay some expenses for the room out of the door count. The soundman often gets paid from the door count, so he really works for the band not the house. This was actually the situation at this particular gig.If the guys were as bad as some of these comments have suggested, the band wouldn't have a following and the clubs wouldn't be asking them for future dates. The band is on a roll, they have fans and fill clubs, their success suggests that they know what they are doing. And that's great. But it doesn't mean they have the only 'right' way of handling sound. Does it?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members alcohol Posted June 28, 2007 Author Members Share Posted June 28, 2007 And that's great. But it doesn't mean they have the only 'right' way of handling sound. Does it?????? Sometimes there's more than one right way to accomplish something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted June 28, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted June 28, 2007 Sometimes there's more than one right way to accomplish something. So then why all the pushback against folks who've done it both ways and prefer lower stage volume and the PA taking a bigger chunk of the load? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted June 28, 2007 Members Share Posted June 28, 2007 Ouch Horse lovers around the world take exception to that smilie, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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