Powered Mixer vs. Power Amp

[moog man]

As I'm shopping for power amps, i finding that many power amps+4 space rack case = the price of powered mixer that has built in hard case. I realize that powered speakers don't have as many inputs as a separate mixer but I really don't need that many inputs for my keyboard rig. However, powered mixers are a lot more convinient and easy to move. I love portability, but not at the sacrifice of sound. What are your thoughts on this?

 

I have found a perfect crown power amp if I go that route, but I am still considering something like this- Soundcraft GigRac 1000st Powered Mixer http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Soundcraft-GigRac-1000st-8Channel-Powered-Mixer?sku=630930

 

Has anyone used this? reviewers do say that keyboards hiss through it but that may be because they are using the wrong set of channels. Any other comparable powered mixers that are good? I'm looking for 400-500 watts @4 ohms

 

thanks

 

edit: I already have a 12 input mixer so I won't have to buy one, but its just more stuff to carry when I only need 4 channels and don't need much eq

[tlbonehead]

As I'm shopping for power amps, i finding that many power amps+4 space rack case = the price of powered mixer that has built in hard case. I realize that powered speakers don't have as many inputs as a separate mixer but I really don't need that many inputs for my keyboard rig. However, powered mixers are a lot more convinient and easy to move. I love portability, but not at the sacrifice of sound. What are your thoughts on this? I have found a perfect crown power amp if I go that route, but I am still considering something like this- Soundcraft GigRac 1000st Powered Mixer http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Soundcraft-GigRac-1000st-8Channel-Powered-Mixer?sku=630930 Has anyone used this? reviewers do say that keyboards hiss through it but that may be because they are using the wrong set of channels. Any other comparable powered mixers that are good? I'm looking for 400-500 watts @4 ohms thanks edit: I already have a 12 input mixer so I won't have to buy one, but its just more stuff to carry when I only need 4 channels and don't need much eq

Can't beat Peavey in this area.

[Sojourner7]

Speaking of Peavey. When a thread comes up about powered mixers, almost always, the Peavey XR8600 is mentioned. Why? Its a solid build, has many options that are friendly to the user, offers a decent amount of power for a powered mixer and of course wont make you go bankrupt. I really like the feedback ferret on this thing. The frequencies that are hot glow with a little light and you can just bump it back. Also, has some built in effects that arent that bad. Just a good versitile unit. Check it out. Then again, its a bit stronger than you may want.

[Sojourner7]

Sorry. Not feedback Ferret. Its just FLS.

[jgthatsme]

I work w/ some of the best musicians in the Buffalo, NY area and they are among the best you could hope to find anywhere. One of the keyboard players I work with from time to time uses that very same Soundcraft GigRack. He can afford to use anything and can't afford to use junk. I've never heard any hiss through his system. He uses it to power a pair of wedge monitors which he places behind him and runs in stereo. I can't recall the make/model of the wedge monitors, but they are definitely a high-end product.

 

The keyboard player I regularly work with in my two bands has been using a Yorkville 200KB w/ a Yamaha MSR400 active full-range extension speaker for several years now. I'm not into the keys that much, but I believe his two main boards are Roland. One is more like an organ which resembles a Hammond B3 in looks, sound, and function. Anyway, he plays really friggin' loud. Yorkville should use him to demonstrate the durability of the 200KB because the red clip light glows bright red all night long.

 

It's insanely loud, however apparently not loud enough. Since he's more of an organ player than a keyboard player, he craves lots of low end. Therefore, he will be retiring the Yorkville 200KB from gig use and instead using a Yamaha MSR800W active sub w/ the Yamaha MSR400 active full-range top when our busy season kicks off later this spring. He'll be mixing his boards w/ either a Yamaha MG82CX or MG124CX board. My ears are already ringing. I'm hoping we don't have too many stage volume issues...

[GCDEF]

 

I'm looking for 400-500 watts @4 ohms thanks edit: I already have a 12 input mixer so I won't have to buy one, but its just more stuff to carry when I only need 4 channels and don't need much eq

 

 

It's unlikely you'll find that kind of real power in a powered mixer. That one claims 500 watts at 4 ohms, but with no other qualifications, I'd be very surprised if it were really delivering anything close to that.

[SoundMan]

"It's unlikely you'll find that kind of real power in a powered mixer. That one claims 500 watts at 4 ohms, but with no other qualifications, I'd be very surprised if it were really delivering anything close to that."

 

I know one that does, the XR8600. I've measured it many times. 40Hz - 20kHz Doing the more popular, "burst power" methods, it'll do 600 per channel, with both channels loaded.

 

SoundMan

[GCDEF]

 

"It's unlikely you'll find that kind of real power in a powered mixer. That one claims 500 watts at 4 ohms, but with no other qualifications, I'd be very surprised if it were really delivering anything close to that." I know one that does, the XR8600. I've measured it many times. 40Hz - 20kHz Doing the more popular, "burst power" methods, it'll do 600 per channel, with both channels loaded. SoundMan

 

 

My point was just saying "500 watts" without qualifying it is pretty close to meaningless. A solid power amp claiming 500 watts RMS at 20 - 20khz with .05%THD is likely to perform better than a budget power mixer just claiming 500 watts at 4 ohms and nothing else.

 

I have $20 computer speaker claiming to be 110 watts, yet my 15 watt guitar amp is substantially louder. How could that be?

[moog man]

I like the soundcraft for the portability. Its good to hear that it sounds good as well. The peavy also looks like a good one. I'll definitely check those out.

 

So are there any reasons that I shouldn't use a powered mixer? Will I forfit anything sound wise by not using power amp+mixer?

 

thanks

[GCDEF]

 

I like the soundcraft for the portability. Its good to hear that it sounds good as well. The peavy also looks like a good one. I'll definitely check those out. So are there any reasons that I shouldn't use a powered mixer? Will I forfit anything sound wise by not using power amp+mixer? thanks

 

 

Well, as I said, those specs don't really tell you much of anything about the amp. Unless they qualify it, it's next to meaningless.

 

If you decide someday that its "500 watts @ 4 ohms" isn't doing it for you, you'd have to add an external amp, at which point you'd have the amp in the mixer sitting around doing nothing.

 

If at some point, you decide you need more mixer channels, you'd have to buy more power or run your new mixer into the onboard amps on the old powered mixer.

 

If some day you want to run the mixer out in the house, you'd need long speaker cables, which can rob power.

 

Used within their limits, powered mixers can get the job done, but they do have their limits.

[Audioeast]

For a keyboard rig the Gigrack would be ideal, its really a cool little unit. I wouldnt try doing a whole rock band thru it, but its very good for what it is

[moog man]

The more I look at the gigrac, the more I like it. One last favor if anyone is willing, but could you look at the specs and tell me what kinda of output this thing will actually produce? I'm not exactly gung ho to get a ton watts because I think even 300 are fine, but it would be awesome to get an idea of how much this thing will put out realisticly in a rig with 2 2x10 cabs running at 4 ohms. FYI , the speakers are eminence deltalite IIs. I don't even know if this is possible with the info provided, but if you guys have time I would really appreciate the help for a sound noob.

 

Here is the link http://www.gigrac.com/gigfacts/gigrac1000.htm

 

The specs are at the bottom.

 

Once again thanks for all your help!

[GCDEF]

Again, I don't know how much more clearly I can put it. "2 X 500W ref 4 ?" means pretty close to nothing as far as what kind of performance you'll get out of it. You'd need to give more details on your cabinets and your intended use for anybody to give you some clue as to whether it will work.

 

With good speakers, it would be a decent rehearsal or coffee shop solution. If you're planning on running a rock band in a good sized bar, not even close.

[moog man]

I didn't mean to be beatin the dead horse:deadhorse:. I get your point. I do have a loud band to compete with, and that is one of the main reasons I decided to get some speakers. I'm normally playing for about 150-200 people so maybe I should reconsider.

[Kevin T]

This is a keyboard rig in aloud band right What kind of vocal (FOH) system do you use?

Is the key rig a monitor for you or your sole source of reinforcement?.

No matter This will work in most any loud band

1 or 2 JBL G2 EON15 400W 129dB spl capable of STUPID loud clear keys amping . mini mixer built in ~50lbs Nearly indestructable. I use 1 and keep up with 2 Guitars with Marshalls I also ( and u should to) go though the mains.

 

KT

[dboomer]

 

Again, I don't know how much more clearly I can put it. "2 X 500W ref 4 ?" means pretty close to nothing as far as what kind of performance you'll get out of it.

 

 

Agreed! You have to understand how to read specs. It's not just about numbers.

 

In this case could be EIA watts, or FTC watts or UL watts or something else entirely ... not to mention continuous watts (and how long is continuous?) or peak watts or instantaneous peak power.

[moog man]

This is a keyboard rig in aloud band right What kind of vocal (FOH) system do you use? Is the key rig a monitor for you or your sole source of reinforcement?. No matter This will work in most any loud band 1 or 2 JBL G2 EON15 400W 129dB spl capable of STUPID loud clear keys amping . mini mixer built in ~50lbs Nearly indestructable. I use 1 and keep up with 2 Guitars with Marshalls I also ( and u should to) go though the mains. KT

 

For FOH we use whatever the venue has. I used to go through that but I am soooooo tired of crappy soundmen and bad PAs that do not know how to run keys. So I decided to get my own kit so that this crap never happens again and so that I can run my quality keyboards in stereo. I have 2 of these cabs http://billfitzmaurice.com/Omni10.html and so now I am searching for something to power them. they are basically gonna be my "amp," and just be for keys for main reinforcement. I might send something to FOH if needed. I also like to save money and things to carry so that is why I am looking at the gigrac vs a power amp. I realize that the power ratings can be misleading though.

[GCDEF]

I guess I missed the part where all you need it for is onstage keys monitoring. It should be fine for that.

[Audioeast]

 

. I have 2 of these cabs http://billfitzmaurice.com/Omni10.html .

 

 

LOL LOL those are still some of the funniest looking pile of peizos ive ever seen, everytime somone posts about them, i fall on the floor laughing

 

sorry, im i alone in thinking billfitzmaurice has a line of bridge buyers? it looks like a flea market speaker?

[GCDEF]

 

LOL LOL those are still some of the funniest looking pile of peizos ive ever seen, everytime somone posts about them, i fall on the floor laughing sorry, im i alone in thinking billfitzmaurice has a line of bridge buyers? it looks like a flea market speaker?

 

 

They do look a bit like something you'd see on ebay listed as a 12-way PA speaker for $79.

[moog man]

Laugh all you want, but those are best sounding, loudest 10s I've ever heard. And they cost me half as much as buying a pair of jbls that are made out of plastic. When you control the quality you get results without having to mortgage your house.

[Vito Corleone]

 

I also like to save money and things to carry so that is why I am looking at the gigrac vs a power amp. I realize that the power ratings can be misleading though.

 

 

The only time power would be an issue would be if you play a lot of low/bass stuff. If you're doing key-bass parts or a lot of low-register organ, you'll find you might need more power.

 

I play my keys through a pair of powered Yamaha MS-400 speakers that are rated at 400 watts each (300 for the 15"-woofer, 100 for the horn). I don't do a lot of bass stuff, but even those speakers can start to overload when I'm playing some low organ notes.

[tlbonehead]

They do look a bit like something you'd see on ebay listed as a 12-way PA speaker for $79.

Dr Fong?

[agedhorse]

 

Laugh all you want, but those are best sounding, loudest 10s I've ever heard. And they cost me half as much as buying a pair of jbls that are made out of plastic. When you control the quality you get results without having to mortgage your house.

 

 

There's plenty of really good sounding 10" speakers out there, you just have to look as something in the $300+ range.

QSC comes to mind as something I listened to recently but maybe it was in the Wideline cabinet that I heard some 10's that caused me to take notice. EAW, RCF, EV and JBL also have product that is exceptional in 10".

[moog man]

I think I have just decided to go with my power amp+mixer route, and I think a 450 watt crown xls should be just fine for the power I need. I'll have no worries and no regrets, except when I'm loading in and out, but I'll get over it:).

 

Agedhorse I didn't mean to say that there are no great 10 in. manufactured speakers out there. Its just that these sounded really good to me, and I got a little pissed when someone said that they looked like they were worth $79 after all the work I put into them.

 

guido61 I do crave bass and these speakers do have really good bass response so I think with this crown that bass should come out quite well. Thanks for the input.