Bad Strings???

[FretFiend.]

I just gave my trusty D28 its annual string change a couple of days ago.  I put on a set of Musician's Gear light gauge strings (.012 - .052)  Never tried them before. I tuned the guitar up, and everything seemed fine, until I tried a couple of barre chords a few frets up.  With a capo on the third fret, the sixth string really sounded sour, it was noticeably flat. It was worse up the neck, nearly half a semitone at the harmonic.  Only the sixth string, the other strings seem fine.  This guitar has NEVER been like that.

I have two guesses.

First guess, the guitar doesn't like the light strings (I've always used mediums.)

Second guess, something is wrong with that sixth string. Maybe those Musician's Gear strings are not any good.  They look fine, nothing that appears to be the cause of this.

I thought I'd run the question by here before I try a different set of strings, although I hate to take off a brand new set of strings.  (I'll use a set of Martin strings this time) 

Anyone have any experience with those Musician's Gear strings? 

Edited February 3, 2023 by FretFiend.

[garthman]

Well, long time, no see. Welcome back.

The problem could be poor quality strings, We don't have Musician's Friend stores here in the UK so I've no experience of their products but I do use budget strings - although I change more frequently than once a year - and don't have problems with them.

It could also be that you need to adjust your guitar's truss rod (if it's adjustable) to allow for the lower tension - you might be having to press down the strings more and this could cause intonation problems - and, if so, it would be more noticable on the thicker strings. I've found that a change of even one string gauge on my Crafter acoustic requires a small truss rod adjustment.

But probably the best solution would be to go back to a medium set.

[daddymack]

^ Agreed, any gauge change will typically require some adjustments...the lighter gauge could even have slipped into a 'bad position' on the bridge or nut that the medium gauge string rested over.

There are really only a handful of actual string manufacturers on the planet, so I doubt this is a 'quality issue' on one string.

[garthman]

1 hour ago, daddymack said:

There are really only a handful of actual string manufacturers on the planet, so I doubt this is a 'quality issue' on one string.

There are more than a "handful" of string manufacturers  but there are probably only a handful of wire manufacturers.

[daddymack]

2 hours ago, garthman said:

There are more than a "handful" of string manufacturers  but there are probably only a handful of wire manufacturers.

Brands, yes, there are tons, but they are not the same as manufacturers.

[garthman]

1 hour ago, daddymack said:

Brands, yes, there are tons, but they are not the same as manufacturers.

D'Addario

La Bella

Ernie Ball

Dean Markley

GHS

Rotosound

Olympia

Thomastik-Infeld

Black Diamond

Hannabach

Augustine

Aquila

Dogal

Optima

Galli

Pyramid

Solera Flamenca

Royal Classics

Magma

Plus a few inKorea and China

 

[FretFiend.]

I tried another sixth string, a Martin string this time.  I can tune the open sixth string to dead nuts E, and then the string will be consistently twenty to thirty cents sharp on all the other frets all the way up the neck.  If I tune the sixth string to dead nuts F at the first fret, now, the notes only deviate from normal maybe two or three cents all the way up the neck... except for the open E, which is now about thirty cents flat. This is about the same as before. The string was not the problem.  I have no idea why this problem just started after the string change tho.

If you think about it, that would indicate that the problem may well be with the nut.

I have a set of nut files, but I don't feel comfortable messing with this myself. Guess I'm going to have to find me a good luthier to look at this.

[garthman]

7 hours ago, FretFiend. said:

I tried another sixth string, a Martin string this time.  I can tune the open sixth string to dead nuts E, and then the string will be consistently twenty to thirty cents sharp on all the other frets all the way up the neck.  If I tune the sixth string to dead nuts F at the first fret, now, the notes only deviate from normal maybe two or three cents all the way up the neck... except for the open E, which is now about thirty cents flat. This is about the same as before. The string was not the problem.  I have no idea why this problem just started after the string change tho.

If you think about it, that would indicate that the problem may well be with the nut.

I have a set of nut files, but I don't feel comfortable messing with this myself. Guess I'm going to have to find me a good luthier to look at this.

It's a simple DIY job if you have nut files. If you fret the string at the 3rd fret there should be just enough space between the bottom of the string and the top of the 1st fret to slide in a piece of paper. If there is more, just slacken off the string sufficiently to be able to lift it out of the nut slot, do 2 or 3 strokes with a file and pop back the string and check. Repeat until corect.

[daddymack]

 I did suggest the issue could be at the nut; if the nut is already cut too deep, filing won't help. Do the 'paper' check that garthman suggested.

[garthman]

2 hours ago, daddymack said:

 I did suggest the issue could be at the nut; if the nut is already cut too deep, filing won't help. Do the 'paper' check that garthman suggested.

If the nut slot(s) are cut too deeply I remove the nut and fit a thin (and I mean thin - a credit card is too thick) shim. Just clean up the surfaces, cut the shim to fit the base of the nut and glue on. Refit the nut with a couple of spots of glue to hold it in place then check all the strings as above and recut whichever, if any, slots that require it.

There is a bit of deja vu in this since I did exactly this job on a friends guitar a couple of days ago to cure some fret buzzes.

Edited February 4, 2023 by garthman

[garthman]

PS. But I'm wondering that if it is the nut, why the guitar played OK prior to the string change?

[daddymack]

1 hour ago, garthman said:

PS. But I'm wondering that if it is the nut, why the guitar played OK prior to the string change?

smaller gauge, sits deeper...

I would just replace the nut.

[garthman]

1 hour ago, daddymack said:

smaller gauge, sits deeper...

I would just replace the nut.

Yeah, could be. But you are only talking 0.002 inch max difference.

I'd be inclined to tweak the truss rod a little to compensate for the reduced tension first - across the set you would expect 10 to 12 lbs less tension from the 11 gauge. If that doesn't sort the problem, then take a look at the nut.

[Mikeo]

56 minutes ago, garthman said:

Yeah, could be. But you are only talking 0.002 inch max difference.

I'd be inclined to tweak the truss rod a little to compensate for the reduced tension first - across the set you would expect 10 to 12 lbs less tension from the 11 gauge. If that doesn't sort the problem, then take a look at the nut.

This

 

I have used 12 and 13's on my Martins, without and issue. I did have to tweak the truss rod.

Watch the humidity levels too, acoustics will dry out in the winter big time. I just gave 4 acoustics a drink. 

I mostly used d'Addario. I have some Martin extended life stings on 2 martins. 13's on a HD 28 for a little more bluegrassy boom.

If the nut was cut  a bit light for 13's, 12's could have sent it over the edge. However that would be weird with a capo that is sitting on the guitar properly.

If you do have to play with nut, and file it, it is 2-3 strokes. A bit more with bone.

The bridge might even need to come u a bit. A luthier will tell you in seconds.

Without anyone actually looking at it Free advise is just that. Including mine.

Good luck.

 

[daddymack]

18 hours ago, garthman said:

Yeah, could be. But you are only talking 0.002 inch max difference.

I'd be inclined to tweak the truss rod a little to compensate for the reduced tension first - across the set you would expect 10 to 12 lbs less tension from the 11 gauge. If that doesn't sort the problem, then take a look at the nut.

I thought we'd already gone there....

[garthman]

2 hours ago, daddymack said:

I thought we'd already gone there....

Well, yes, I did suggest it in my first reply but FF has since suggested the nut. It could actually be a combination of both contributing to the issue but it's worth checking the neck relief first and adjusting if necessary before fiddling with the nut.

😉

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by garthman

[jtr654]

Rather than replace the nut just use baking soda and super glue.

 

[garthman]

LOL - just a brief story about truss rod adjustment.

A friend on mine plays a Martin X series guitar - those with the formica back, sides and neck. He has the guitar fitted with 10 gauge strings - I would assume that the original strings were 12 gauge. I played it a few days ago and noticed that the neck relief was too concave so I offered to adjust it for him - he has no "tech" experience. I was going to take along a couple of Allen keys to do the job - perhaps a 4mm and 5mm which fit most guitars you find in the UK - but decided to take my full set in case the Martin used an imperial gauge.

I tried the 4 and 5mm keys first but, to my astonishment, neither keys came into contact with a socket - they just went into the hole. So I reversed the keys so that the long arm went in but still no socket to be found. I then tried the long arm of one of my imperial keys - which have longer arms that the metric ones - and finally found the socket which was recessed at least 4 inches inside the hole, about where the neck meets the body. A 3/16" key fitted and I managed  to tighten up the rod although it wasn't easy trying to turn the short arm of the key.

Am I right in thinking that all Martin guitars have this truss rod arrangement? Would I be right in thinking that they sell a special key to do the adjustment? I wonder, if so, whether the key costs more than my entire set of keys?

Edited February 6, 2023 by garthman

[daddymack]

1 hour ago, garthman said:

LOL - just a brief story about truss rod adjustment.

A friend on mine plays a Martin X series guitar - those with the formica back, sides and neck. He has the guitar fitted with 10 gauge strings - I would assume that the original strings were 12 gauge. I played it a few days ago and noticed that the neck relief was too concave so I offered to adjust it for him - he has no "tech" experience. I was going to take along a couple of Allen keys to do the job - perhaps a 4mm and 5mm which fit most guitars you find in the UK - but decided to take my full set in case the Martin used an imperial gauge.

I tried the 4 and 5mm keys first but, to my astonishment, neither keys came into contact with a socket - they just went into the hole. So I reversed the keys so that the long arm went in but still no socket to be found. I then tried the long arm of one of my imperial keys - which have longer arms that the metric ones - and finally found the socket which was recessed at least 4 inches inside the hole, about where the neck meets the body. A 3/16" key fitted and I managed  to tighten up the rod although it wasn't easy trying to turn the short arm of the key.

Am I right in thinking that all Martin guitars have this truss rod arrangement? Would I be right in thinking that they sell a special key to do the adjustment? I wonder, if so, whether the key costs more than my entire set of keys?

hmmm...never adjusted the neck on either of my 'X' Martins, but there is a 'special' tool [not overly pricey for 'Genuine Martin']: https://www.martinguitar.com/gear-accessories/tools/18TOOL12.html

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/18TOOL12--martin-18tool12-5mm-allen-truss-rod-wrench

[garthman]

4 hours ago, daddymack said:

hmmm...never adjusted the neck on either of my 'X' Martins, but there is a 'special' tool [not overly pricey for 'Genuine Martin']: https://www.martinguitar.com/gear-accessories/tools/18TOOL12.html

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/18TOOL12--martin-18tool12-5mm-allen-truss-rod-wrench

I was pretty much spot on then . . . . . . . .

https://www.sealantsandtoolsdirect.co.uk/blue-spot-tools-hex-key-30-piece-set-in-case-15320-bluespot

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by garthman