Members Big Al Posted May 7, 2011 Members Share Posted May 7, 2011 My band is playing at a pro fishing tournament tomorrow. There will be a festival style stage and PA. I normally use a little reverb on my guitar. Sometimes I use a little slapback delay. I also put some slapback on my vocal via a TC Helicon pedal. Any considerations regarding reverb and delay in this environment? The audience will be in a large grassy field. There won't be any obsticals to reflect sound. Thanks in advance for your thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crownman Posted May 7, 2011 Members Share Posted May 7, 2011 The only issue I could see is if the soundman on duty gives you crap about sending him signals with FX on them already. If it was me I'd talk to the guy ahead of time and let him know what you would like to do. If you have the settings already and don't need them changed during the set the guy might just offer to hook the FX up on his end so he can have control of the ratio of FX to dry signal. I've done this before as a guitarist. I've also been on the other end as the soundguy. On the sound guy end I appreciated the heads up and was more than willing to accomodate. However, on the flip side, if I have someone come up at the last second and say they want to do this, that, and the other my attitude will sometimes not be as pleasant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IsildursBane Posted May 7, 2011 Members Share Posted May 7, 2011 Were I the sound guy, I wouldn't mind fx on the guitar - that's typical, but I'd really frown on you putting a Helicon pedal in the vocal chain. Fluctuations in level from inconsistent guitar patches are annoying, but typically manageable. The same issue with vocals can be much more problematic. Just ask him for some delay on your vocals. -Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members imnotded Posted May 7, 2011 Members Share Posted May 7, 2011 The Helicon pedal has the option to send a wet and dry signal. Let the sound man know that and that you would like to send him both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Big Al Posted May 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted May 7, 2011 Good suggestions guys. The Helicon pedal stays on one setting, so level won't change except for a slight increase in volume when I engage the harmony. Because it's a harmony pedal, it needs to be onstage with me so I can turn it on at the right times. I don't think it will cause feedback--we'll be outside, and we're a fairly quiet 3-piece. The sound guy runs a local studio, and he has a lot of experience with recorded music. I don't think he's done a lot of live sound. I will find out what he has in mind for effects on the vocals. He's familiar with the pedal because the other guy in the band also uses one, and he's used it in this guy's studio before. I will talk to the sound guy and see what he feels comfortable with. Hopefully he will have reverb and delay (and be able to dial them in). How about reverb and delay on the guitar? I don't use a lot, but I want my guitar to sound as clear as possible. Sometimes the sound at this kind of gig gets a little unfocused sounding to my ears. I'm wondering if, in this environment, it's better to play with as little reverb and delay as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted May 7, 2011 Members Share Posted May 7, 2011 Not a lot of experience with live music and he's running a festival stage? Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted May 7, 2011 Members Share Posted May 7, 2011 IME you need MORE fx outdoors in the open than inside as long as there aren't any nearby buildings giving you natural "slapback" (in which case you work that into your mix as you can't "fight" it ) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members imnotded Posted May 7, 2011 Members Share Posted May 7, 2011 Oh it's a harmony pedal. You can send a wet signal of the harmony but not the reverb. Since the guy seems to not have a lot of experience I would just add some and if he complains then bring it down some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted May 7, 2011 Members Share Posted May 7, 2011 Not a lot of experience with live music and he's running a festival stage? Good luck. no doubt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members basschaplain Posted May 7, 2011 Members Share Posted May 7, 2011 When most "sound guys" I know with studio experience first tried their hand at live music, they were surprised how different and challenging it was. Brought a whole new appreciation to live concerts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gspointer Posted May 7, 2011 Members Share Posted May 7, 2011 When most "sound guys" I know with studio experience first tried their hand at live music, they were surprised how different and challenging it was. Brought a whole new appreciation to live concerts. Tis true sometimes. I went to a friends gig one time, sound was terrible. At break, I asked my friend what he thought, he agreed. I did talk to the guy, and helped him for a bit and it got much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Big Al Posted May 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted May 7, 2011 Oh boy... Where to begin? In hindsight it was foolish of me to worry about how many milliseconds of delay was on my vocal. We had bigger problems. Everything sounded great during soundcheck, then the fun began. During the first song, the vocals disappeared completely. For the second song, the vocals disappeared from the FOH, and I received 120+ db of drums in my monitor (almost knocked me down). At this point I was singing monitor mix instructions to the tune of "American Girl", but of course the sound guy couldn't hear because my vocal wasn't in the FOH mix. By the 4th song, things were under control except for a little ringing on stage. Then we had to skip half our set because they didn't get things set up on time. The last two songs sounded great, and then we were done. I kind of knew this might happen. The sound guy is great in the studio, he's super-knowledgeable, and he's great to work with, but he really hasn't done much live sound. Also, he was trying to do monitor mix from out front. I have never seen this work, so I knew we were in trouble. Being the first of 4 bands, I knew we would be troubleshooting the PA, but it's a pretty simple setup. Guitar, Bass, Electric Drums, 2 vocals. What I don't understand is why does the monitor mix always change after you soundcheck? That is why for a lot of these types of gigs, I'll bring my own 3 speaker PA and run my own monitors, giving the house split feeds. My other beef is some sound guys not appreciating that any changes to the trims and channel EQs will affect the monitors as well as the mains. I think this guy will do fine once he get a few more gigs under his belt. As far as I know, the FOH mix sounded fine once the bugs were worked out. It's so true that live sound is totally different from recording in a studio. Despite the problems and inexperienced 3-man sound crew, I must say they did their best and were very responsive to our needs when things went haywire. I have played with top notch pro crews who had everything set up right with a separate monitor board, but they didn't care about how we sounded or how well we could hear ourselves. Just my opinion, but for most bands the world would be a better place without any monitor mixes at all. Since the monitor mix always seems to go haywire (unless I run my own with a split feed), I wish I could just get the main mix in the monitors at a reasonable volume. I'm already looking forward to running my own sound at the next gig. I haven't done this kind of thing in a while, and I'd forgotten how tough it can be. I guess the bottom line is that by the third song, the FOH sounded fine and that's what really matters. I should be enough of a pro that I can deliver a great performance even when the monitor situation is not good. We did a pretty good job of holding it together, and the crowd seemed pleased. That's show-business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gspointer Posted May 7, 2011 Members Share Posted May 7, 2011 The biggest issue I have had in my bands with "soundcheck" monitor mix vs. "1st song" monitor mix is the players. I have had the hardest time getting people to give me their "gig volume" at a soundcheck. I hate playing and trying to sort monitors from stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Big Al Posted May 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted May 7, 2011 The biggest issue I have had in my bands with "soundcheck" monitor mix vs. "1st song" monitor mix is the players. I have had the hardest time getting people to give me their "gig volume" at a soundcheck. I hate playing and trying to sort monitors from stage. That's a huge problem. Everyone starts banging harder, then everyone wants to turn up because they can't hear themselves, so everyone turns up and nobody can hear themselves, the rig starts feeding back and everyone goes deaf. Next I quit the band and start a 3-piece in which everyone plays at an appropriate volume and all of the instruments go direct. The story of my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted May 7, 2011 Members Share Posted May 7, 2011 Kinda how I saw the whole thing happening. Why does the monitor mix change from soundcheck to 1st song? here are some things to look at: at soundcheck your ears haven't been adjusted totally to the loudness of stage, generally you'll want less of everything in your mix since your ears are more sensitive before the gig. As you get used to the spl, certain subtilties go away. Band members turn up thinking they'll play quiet during soundcheck so when they turn up they'll be heard out front better. well, this screws everyones balance and mix up even if it's only 1 person doing it. FOH guy (running mon from FOH) starts inserting compressers and adjusting gain after soundcheck. Everytime he/she adjust the gain knob, or changes the threshold on a comp, or ratio, or output level your monitor mix has now changed. Usually it gets squashed a little and there is even less gain-before-feedback. In the studio you can compress anything you want all day long, doing this live has a direct effect on speakers in a room/area that interact with the mics directly. the solution isn't to quit and start over, the solution is to get someone competent out front who knows what they're doing. Then fix the other 2 issues if they exsist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted May 7, 2011 Members Share Posted May 7, 2011 The biggest issue I have had in my bands with "soundcheck" monitor mix vs. "1st song" monitor mix is the players. I have had the hardest time getting people to give me their "gig volume" at a soundcheck. I hate playing and trying to sort monitors from stage. So true. Seems like so many performers forget the importance of a really detailed sound check. Just rip half-way through a song, everything sounds OK--good enough!. This is probably where the "Monitor Engineer" came into existence. Somebody thought: "You know, if there was a way you could......................" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Big Al Posted May 8, 2011 Author Members Share Posted May 8, 2011 I hear where you guys are coming from, and I've experienced it before, but with our particular setup, it's not really possible for anyone to play harder or turn up. We don't use amps, our guitars and bass are direct, and the settings never change. My guitar is compressed, so it doesn't even get louder if you pound on it. The electric drums are the same way. In this case, the bass player's mic failed. For some reason the sound guy killed my mic too. Then when he tried to bring it back up, he brought the drums up instead. Of course he could not hear this because he was 100 feet from the stage and frantically searching for the vocal channel. Later, I think he added some bass to my vocal and touched the gain on my guitar. Aside from ear fatigue and people playing harder/adjusting amps or effects, I think it's just impossible to maintain a mix you can't hear. All it takes is turning one knob, and once you've made a change, you have no reference point to return to. I also think that at my level (small time local band), the sound guys are mainly focused on getting a good FOH sound. They aren't considering how the changes they make affect the band. By the time you get up to a true pro sound guy, the chances are he's got a separate monitor mix anyway, so he's free to focus on FOH. It's just frustrating, because it always sounds so perfect at soundcheck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted May 8, 2011 Members Share Posted May 8, 2011 I think it's just impossible to maintain a mix you can't hear.That's why they invented headphones . All it takes is turning one knob, and once you've made a change, you have no reference point to return to.Sounds like this guy should be kept far, far away from the knobs on a live sound mixer . I also think that at my level (small time local band), the sound guys are mainly focused on getting a good FOH sound. They aren't considering how the changes they make affect the band.They shouldn't be making any changes to the monitor mixer when adjusting the FOH mix. By the time you get up to a true pro sound guy, the chances are he's got a separate monitor mix anyway, so he's free to focus on FOH.Did you mean "a separate monitor mixer w/operator" ? Just about any mixer has separate monitor mixes - even a $150 Behringer. It's just frustrating, because it always sounds so perfect at soundcheck.Really, don't accept this as the best that can be done in your area - sounds to me like you could have gone down to the local zoo and borrowed a chimp that could have done a better job . A competent operator using a board and mics they are familiar with should be able to dial in a usable monitor mix without a sound check at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TimmyP Posted May 8, 2011 Members Share Posted May 8, 2011 Give FOH a straight mic signal and a harmonies-only signal, both dry. Let him/her determine the blend and effects level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scarecrowbob Posted May 8, 2011 Members Share Posted May 8, 2011 " Since the monitor mix always seems to go haywire[...] " It does not have to. Setting up a system aside, 90% of running sound is working with people. Knowing the gear 100% only gets you around 10% of the way there. "I think it's just impossible to maintain a mix you can't hear." It is not, if you communicate well both before and during (and I even like to talk to folks after) a set. But communication is necessary from both sides of the board, and both sides have to have meaningful ideas to communicate. And it can be tough to learn what is meaningful for the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted May 8, 2011 Members Share Posted May 8, 2011 I mix monitors from FOH quite a bit (depending on the show and budget) and it's really not a big deal if you know what you are doing. If you don't know what you are doing, it becomes a very big deal in a very short amount of time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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