Moderators Ratae Corieltauvorum Posted October 26, 2015 Moderators Share Posted October 26, 2015 Nothing in my experience suggests that a dead sounding guitar can be made into an awesome one by removing the finish in the neck pocket. Have you done this? Yes, think poly or indeed thick anything finish on the contact face of a bolt on neck pocked will act as an insulator. You will find this on cheap Strat/TeleJazzBass/PBass knock offs. It's the same reason why some Gibson set necks are not all the same, ie the integrity of the wood contact in the tenon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted October 26, 2015 Members Share Posted October 26, 2015 You should consider so called water born cross linking lacquer - I have had very good luck with them and unless you have a full paint booth they are much safer for you and the environment. I shoot nitro when there is a reason to do so (usually historical correctness or a special instrument when I or the owner expects nitro), but I've been using KTM-9 on other instruments and have been very happy with it. The two guitars that I posted pictures of in your other thread - the koa tricone and the Spanish cedar Les Paul (both which were pore filled with Zpoxy) were finished in KTM-9. FWIW, I only shoot solvent based finishes like nitro outside or in my friends paint booth - KTM-9 I can shoot in the garage in a "booth" made out of a cardboard guitar shipping box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted October 27, 2015 Members Share Posted October 27, 2015 I'm just relying on a sample size of 1, but my Strat had all of the above - thick paint, followed by thick sealer (including the neck pocket). It was a pretty average sounding guitar, but was my best one for a long time. I stripped the entire guitar back to bare wood except for the headstock face, then did a french polish on the body and finished the neck in KTM-9 water based. I honestly couldn't hear a difference and I was devastated. It still sounds the same as always, except for the upgraded pickups, which were the last attempt at making it awesome. I also didn't notice a real difference when I replaced the micro tilt with a custom made maple shim. Again, I REALLY wanted to hear a difference, but no dice. I realise that this isn't scientific, but it shapes my thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted October 27, 2015 Members Share Posted October 27, 2015 I don't doubt that a thick finish on a very resonant guitar might make a difference, but I did the strip/sand/french polish on an all-laminate FG180 acoustic and was similarly shocked at how little difference it made. They both look awesome though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Ratae Corieltauvorum Posted October 27, 2015 Moderators Share Posted October 27, 2015 I don't doubt that a thick finish on a very resonant guitar might make a difference, but I did the strip/sand/french polish on an all-laminate FG180 acoustic and was similarly shocked at how little difference it made. They both look awesome though! Yamaha since the late 60s have engineered their tops, and put a lot of time and research into laminating. If you want to satisfy yourself get a great Martin and get a heavy polyester finish to the top. Bake at 220deg for 40 mins, allow to rest and eat:p. Seriously, in the same way that probably even a thick poly finish wouldn't hurt a plywood body, removing the finish from an all laminate acoustic will yield little by way of audible difference, but the reverse is not true. It's worth having a hunt around the webz to look at how Yamaha became the go to acoustic of the 70s and 80s, in the same way that other MIJ electric manufacturers were making better LPs, Strats and Teles. It's why Yamaha make a decent acoustic at worst, I wouldn't swap my LL6 for anything, and my son plays the NCX900. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Ratae Corieltauvorum Posted October 27, 2015 Moderators Share Posted October 27, 2015 I'm just relying on a sample size of 1, but my Strat had all of the above - thick paint, followed by thick sealer (including the neck pocket). It was a pretty average sounding guitar, but was my best one for a long time. I stripped the entire guitar back to bare wood except for the headstock face, then did a french polish on the body and finished the neck in KTM-9 water based. I honestly couldn't hear a difference and I was devastated. It still sounds the same as always, except for the upgraded pickups, which were the last attempt at making it awesome. I also didn't notice a real difference when I replaced the micro tilt with a custom made maple shim. Again, I REALLY wanted to hear a difference, but no dice. I realise that this isn't scientific, but it shapes my thinking. I hear what you're saying. There used to be a forumite who built an all natural Warmoth (Strat???) guitar, loved it to bits, then decided to have the body refinished, guy says it ruined the sound drastically, so in an effort to return it to it's former sound, stripped it all back again, but never retrieved the tonal benefits he'd sacrificed. I wouldn't pretend to be able to scientifically explain these anecdotes, but I do believe people's experiences point towards, the closest one can get to an all wood guitar, with as little finish as possible, with the neck connected as well as possible to the body, the better the guitar is likely to be. Go to Madrid, or Granada and visit the small luthiers making the simplest guitars that the best players in the world use. You won't find any polyester. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Ratae Corieltauvorum Posted October 27, 2015 Moderators Share Posted October 27, 2015 You'll find a lot of interest in here: http://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/musical-instruments/guitars-basses/special/images/essential_knowledge.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members badpenguin Posted October 27, 2015 Members Share Posted October 27, 2015 Very sweet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members badpenguin Posted October 27, 2015 Members Share Posted October 27, 2015 I am on the fence on the whole Nitro vs Poly vs Tung oil. I had a PRS Santana done in epoxy and poly, and hated it for the lack of tone. Stripped it, refinished it in tung, and it was exactly the same. Did the same thing to an Ibanez Sabre, and the guitar came alive. I think there are so many variables that's there's no defining answer.My L6S has a Nitro finish on maple, and it feels warm to my hand, same with my Faded SG, made in mahogany. And still, I have the same feeling with some of the poly finishes on my Ibanez's and my Manoman. other ones, not so much, feeling cold and sticky. I think it's just a matter of preference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wankdeplank Posted October 27, 2015 Members Share Posted October 27, 2015 The worst electric guitar I ever owned was a Dillion Strat copy that was made in Korea (supposedly the same factory that was doing the Tokai brand). Now I normally find good value in Korean made fare but not in this case. I got it from a sponsored player on Ebay on the recommendation of a friend that was a Dillion convert. On the surface, it was a gorgeous sunburst design and looked like a topshelf Fender save for the headstock. However, it started falling apart as soon as I got it. The bridge screws stripped straight away, easy replacement, then the frets wore twice as fast as any of my other guitars. But it was the tone that really sealed the deal and even after I'd replaced the pickups with boutiques it still sounded thin and didn't cut through on leads. I took a bath on it but was so happy to let it go for less than the cost of the replacement neck, let alone the pickups. In any event, I had always blamed the thin tone on the thick poly finish until I got a 93 MIM with a similar thick poly finish. But the Fender sounds amazing, honestly just as dynamic sounding as my 89 American which has a much thinner poly finish on it. And, I feel the body resonating when I play it. It was at this point that I realized that it wasn't the thick finish on the Dillion, but rather the wood (Chestnut) that made the difference in the tone. The company was departing from the norm (Ash, Alder, Poplar) and using an unproven tonewood (Chestnut) that probably hadn't even been properly cured. Poly doesn't ruin the tone of an instrument in my opinion. Of course it effects the tone in some sense - my feeling is that poly gives a snappier tone than Nitro which is smoother sounding. And I agree that paint should not be found in the neck pocket as this is a critical contact point for the guitar. Removing paint in the neck pocket of cheap Strat copies is a well known way to improve sustain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Ratae Corieltauvorum Posted October 28, 2015 Moderators Share Posted October 28, 2015 Poly doesn't ruin the tone of an instrument in my opinion. Of course it effects the tone in some sense - my feeling is that poly gives a snappier tone than Nitro which is smoother sounding. . Aaaaaaah, dude!!! Why did you write that, we'd only just calmed down the tonewood arguments:philpalm: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Ratae Corieltauvorum Posted October 28, 2015 Moderators Share Posted October 28, 2015 I certainly wouldn't say polyester ruins the tone of any guitar, the Fender Baja Telecaster proves that. But it wouldn't be the go to finish of any small builder in order to enhance either the tone or aesthetic of a well built, handmade guitar. In the same way, I'd never expoxy powder coat a beautifully handmade cycle frame, made with Reynolds tubing. Polyester is a great way to cover average workmanship, and those Dillions, there was so much {censored} talked about them and the Tokais that were coming out of Canada, I believe the British brand Indie belonged to the same subset Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted October 28, 2015 Members Share Posted October 28, 2015 Most bridges on electrics that have screws of studs that are drilled well below the finish. I doubt the finish is going to affect the tone much. maybe a Tele or Strat bridge which lays on top of the finish may have some change in vibration but most are still anchored with screws. I have a Plexiglass Flying V and it does sound very good. Not exactly wood like but the neck/fret-board provides 50% of the string tone so I don't see the finish types making a huge difference on a solid body. So long as the finish is hard its going to conduct sound. I use all three finishes on different builds. I like Tung oil allot because its super easy to apply and will dry as hard as poly. Lacquer is the repairable finish. When new layers are applied they melt into the old layers and make a single layer of finish. Poly and Tung go on in layers like an onion. Poly will retain its color and shine for years but I've learned my lesson on refinishing poly guitars. The last strat I refinished that had poly was coated so thick, by the time I got down to the wood at the neck pocket, the neck overhung the pocket by at least 2mm. Should have just left the thing alone. The wood grain under the finish wasn't that great to look at and I would up repainting the thing. Huge waste of time and energy. The only thing I'll do with poly guitars any more, if they have dings I patch them. They don't come out flawless like you can with lacquer but from a few feet away you'd be hard pressed to see the patches if you didn't know they were there. Believe it or not I haven't had to patch or repair any of my Tung finish guitars. I've surly banged a few around but no dings so far. I don't do the minimal finish however, I put it on as thick as Lacquer or poly. I use the Minwax which has Varnish to make it shine. They don't tell you exactly what's in there if you read the MSDS sheets. They like to bury their trade secrets. Pure Tung is allot like Lacquer. Its a natural resin that comes from a tree nut. That probably why it feels natural to the touch.Lacquer comes from bug that feed on tree sap. They process the bugs to get the resin out. Maybe that's why some people get buggy about a Lacquer finish? The only other finishes no one has spoken about is Varnish. Varnish is supposed to produce the best tones in fine violins. If it does make that much difference to thin resonant woods, I wonder why you don't see more guitars using it. Granted the color variety is limited but but someone who believes tone is a cumulative effect where the sum of all the parts play a role in the instrument tone. I have three guitars in the works. I may try Varnish on one of them just to see how it comes out. Violin was my first instrument and the finish does feel natural. It surely resonates naturally. I couldn't imagine how squeaky a poly finish might sound. Its not super durable but I believe its as repairable as Lacquer. I make most of my guitars from antique wood so the antique looking finish might add to the effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wankdeplank Posted October 29, 2015 Members Share Posted October 29, 2015 Oops, sorry about that. Reynolds Tubing? Bicycle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wankdeplank Posted October 29, 2015 Members Share Posted October 29, 2015 Ahh yes the bridges screws. Well played sir, and I should have thought to have presented it earlier in my own anecdotal experience. Simple elegant reasoning and I concur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members onelife Posted October 29, 2015 Members Share Posted October 29, 2015 I have a Les Paul Studio that has been stripped. I knew the guitar before the "accident" that resulted in the removal of the finish but did not find it exceptional. I recorded with it and spent some time getting to know its tonal characteristics. After it was repaired and stripped I took it out of the case an played it acoustically. I was blown away It is a solid guitar (no weight relief) and the amplified sound is much fuller and harmonically rich than when it was wrapped in lacquer. I'm not an expert, I'm just a player, but this LP is now the best guitar I have ever had. I also have an old 335 and a MIJ strat that have been stripped - they both became better guitars as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wankdeplank Posted October 30, 2015 Members Share Posted October 30, 2015 Wow talk about a plot twist. So your nitro finished instruments sound better without any finish whatsoever?Sounds like your experience is antithetical to Koiwoi's (above post). I would think the instruments might suffer more from grime and weather changes without any finish to protect them. Also, I'm just wondering if this is a difference in tone anybody could hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wankdeplank Posted October 31, 2015 Members Share Posted October 31, 2015 Bumpity Bump Just trying to get to the bottom of this guitar stripping controversy. Does it or does it not make a difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chordite Posted October 31, 2015 Members Share Posted October 31, 2015 and sometimes leaving it stored with a cable across it can do weird things. I think it is a plasticiser leaching issue from the cable outer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted October 31, 2015 Members Share Posted October 31, 2015 Any discussion of finishes needs to be broken down by scale. The big manufactures will use the "best" product within their economical business model and tradition. Almost all manufactures today use either nitrocellulose lacquer (Gibson, Martin) or catalyzed polyester finish (Taylor, most PacRim builders). Solid colors like many Fenders are based on automotive finishes - I don't know (or frankly care) much about them. Nitro of course is traditional - we've talked about all its advantages. Polyester is either catalyzed by UV light or chemically - it is very expensive to get set up to use it but has huge economic advantages in that it require little or no buffing. You can apply it with a robot, cure it almost immediately and bingo, you've got a shiny guitar. (I hate to say it but every time I hear "polyester" I think of David Lindley's pants) Middle sized and boutique builders usually want the very best finish for their instruments - after all they are usually selling for many thousands of dollars. Many use nitro - it is relatively easy to set up a small paint booth, and again, we know the advantages. Some French polish - that is a time and labor consuming application of shellac dissolved in alcohol. It is not the same shellac that you buy in a can at Home Depot. Almost all classical guitars are French polished (the mass produced ones are not), a few steel strings are and I suppose there might be some electrics finished this way but I don't know of any. It is interesting that some violin and archtop guitar builders will string up their instruments "in the white" (meaning with no finish) and test play them. Some report hearing a difference with and without finish, some do not. The ones that don't do it claim that you don't learn anything since you are going to finish it anyway. I will add that violins are traditionally varnished (special stuff) but we are not a violin forum The last group are us home builders - that includes a few folks on this forum (and me). Many of us don't have paint booths or UV curing ovens, we might finish a few guitars a year or in our lifetime. For many the choice of finish is some sort of furniture finish that we buy at the hardware store - and there are lots of choices. Tung oil, TruOil, shellacs and varnishes, polyurethane, and other brushed on stuff. All of those will cover and protect the wood - I'll be honest, I rarely see one of these finishes that I would want on one of my guitars. A coffee table, yes, a piece of highly flamed maple, no way. I did try TruOil on the Barncaster - I was so disappointed with it that I stripped it back to bare wood (yes, I had put on 20 coats, waited a month and still couldn't get acceptable gloss). Nitrocellulose lacquer remains a good (and bad) choice for the home builder. The good part - it works beautifully and is relatively easy for us to apply and buff to a high gloss. However it is explosive, toxic, difficult to clean up and pretty dangerous. I shoot nitro, outside in a home made paint booth or at my friends professional booth and I wear a respirator. T_e_l_e's ES-335 was nitro, I'm finishing a Brazilian rosewood parlor right now and wouldn't use anything else. Last choice for small and home builders are the so called "water born" lacquers - I'm using KTM-9 on everything that doesn't justify nitro. It is almost as good as nitro, which still remains the grail, but has none of nitro's nasty drawbacks. Notice the common thread here - big manufactures, boutique and home builders all have different products available to them - for many nitrocellulose lacquer is the finish of choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wankdeplank Posted November 1, 2015 Members Share Posted November 1, 2015 Very informative. Thanks for that, learned a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Ratae Corieltauvorum Posted November 2, 2015 Moderators Share Posted November 2, 2015 Actually, stripping finish off a Gibson is probably a good idea, which is why I think the thickness is more important than the finish itself. Gibson do put a very thick copat of whatever they call nitro.I have a 2 year old 1963 reissue 335 and the nitro on there is thin and smells like old school nitro, sorta hefty pear drop smell, whereas the modern Gibsons don't have that smell. They don't have the apparent denseness of cheaper polyester guitars, but at the same time, I think Gibson definitely spray high volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarcapo Posted November 2, 2015 Members Share Posted November 2, 2015 turns yellow, like it has tobacco stains it's sticky it "checks" and/or develops hairline cracks it's soft and non protective compared to other finishes It just ages better. The sticky thing is probably a poorly mixed nitro batch. The crackling just looks better than the old plastic feel of poly. Nitro can be repaired when it's old. Poly is pretty much there for life unless you sand it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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