Members SpaceNorman Posted July 19, 2012 Members Share Posted July 19, 2012 that it is seemingly OK for people/fellow soundmen, musicians, etc to come up to you at your job and make suggestions about how you're doing. When you think about it, that is not generally an accepted behavior anywhere else, is it? A buddy of mine, new to the sound business was asking how I dealt with people coming up telling you how to mix... I try to focus on things I can control. I have zero control about what people who can come up to me decide they want to try to talk about. I do have lots of control over how I respond. Having been married for 25 years - I've gotten pretty good at ignoring folks who walk up and without invitation start in to "supervising" me. I've developed some proficiency in the art of nodding my head, grunting an occasion "uh-huh" and mumbling "sure" or "OK" every now and then. I have however mastered the skill of simply ignoring them while nodding, grunting and mumbling. I ignore 'em with giving it a second thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted July 19, 2012 Members Share Posted July 19, 2012 Just say "hey, I don't go to where you work, and knock the burgers off the grill. Beat it." If you are the leader of the band you do sound for, then certainly you could behave this way if you really want to. But if you are hired by a band, I would assume that they would expect you to have some decorum and civility. I am fairly sure you are kidding or at least being tounge-in-cheek with your post, but I would never tolerate a man I hired, no matter how good he is at running a board, basically being an ass to my band's fans. lol And I am sure you wouldn't either. Don't get me wrong, I am loyal to all my people and when I see a fan or drunk harassing my sound man, I will walk over and escort the person away. And I once had a "fan" of my band being a total dick to my sound man, and who came over in the middle of the show to "complain" to me about my sound man's attitude. I knew this fan was drunk off his ass and that my sound man is a tactful guy, so I told the fan if he really didn't like the sound man that much I would gladly call him a cab to go to another place to see a different band. However, as I said, I would have zero tolerance for a sound man who was habitually snippy and discourteous to the people coming to see my band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted July 19, 2012 Members Share Posted July 19, 2012 It doesn't matter to me if someone says something. If I'm going to take the compliments I'm a big enough boy to take "suggestions". I can tell pretty quickly if the person is a drunk fool, wanna be, or if they have a point. When it comes to shows my wife, and other band wives, come to, I'll actually ask them (generally sign language style). I do this especially if it's at one particular venue where there is zero sound check. It's literally a silent check for signal and "boom" we're playing live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tim_7string Posted July 19, 2012 Members Share Posted July 19, 2012 Unless it's a good friend who asks me "how does it sound?" and I know he's seriously looking for input, I never offer up an opinion. If it's a band I don't know all that well and they ask "howzit sound?" I usually just smile and comment on something I do like---"your vocalist is kick ass!"---or whatever. In my case, the band weren't strangers. I'd seen and hung out with them several times and she did, in fact, ask me how it sounded "out there." I dislike people that just go on about what they didn't like as much as the next person and I don't ever want to be that person. Most people don't really want criticism, they just want validation. And if you offer it up they're likely to just take a "what the {censored} does HE know...?" attitude anyway. Isn't worth it. True that. I have met far more people that just want you to say they are great and nothing else than people that seriously want to improve their sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted July 19, 2012 CMS Author Share Posted July 19, 2012 We're in a 100% subjective business. It's all opinion, so it's no surprise to me that you'll get a few opinions tossed your way. I would be reluctant to dismiss them offhand...if you hear enough similar opinions, that is, even if only anecdotally, a trend. We have to please our 100% subjective audience to the best of our abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted July 19, 2012 Members Share Posted July 19, 2012 Thats why my snarky comment said I would add their comment to the poll and do something when it hits 10 votes. I never act on one comment (unless it comes from the person stroking the check) but if enough people say the same thing, it is theoretically possible, although highly unlikely, and statistically improbable, but an off hand remote chance, that in one of a thousand events, I MAY have missed something. Nah...that can't possibly happen. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 19, 2012 Members Share Posted July 19, 2012 We're in a 100% subjective business. It's all opinion, so it's no surprise to me that you'll get a few opinions tossed your way. I would be reluctant to dismiss them offhand...if you hear enough similar opinions, that is, even if only anecdotally, a trend. We have to please our 100% subjective audience to the best of our abilities. Well, sure. If ten people come up and tell you they can't hear the singer then that's something you should probably pay attention to... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tim Mayock Posted July 19, 2012 Members Share Posted July 19, 2012 I work with a revolving crew of 8 professionals. I welcome and trust their input as they are able to walk the field and tell me what they hear. We all do the same for one another. At times we even allow one another to simply make the adjustment rather than the suggestion. It's a team and at the end of the day, the company name is on the finished product not the primary engineer. Outside of those 8 other technicians, I politely request anyone to STFU and allow me to do my job. Anyone on the crew does the same. so happy to read this! I have done 600 or so shows in my day and what i don't see enough of, is engineers working like this, I was not always at the desk for this very reason. Sound is complex and varied within a venue, I think humidity can mess up a mix outside, i don't have any scientific proof of this but that is my observation. I think I've observed line arrays and folded horns as more even sounding. folded horns are not used so much these days, but I think they have some real benefits especially in tight stages where the bass bin is in close proximity to the kick drum. Opinions are just part of the gig. People usually are tryingl to be helpful. I saw a performance of one of my Idols "Al Anderson" in Windsor Ct. a few years back 4000 people,and the sound man was talking to his buddy for a significant part of the show, the sound sucked and he was partitioned off. I was steammed:mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted July 19, 2012 Members Share Posted July 19, 2012 If you are the leader of the band you do sound for, then certainly you could behave this way if you really want to. But if you are hired by a band, I would assume that they would expect you to have some decorum and civility. I am fairly sure you are kidding or at least being tounge-in-cheek with your post. However, as I said, I would have zero tolerance for a sound man who was habitually snippy and discourteous to the people coming to see my band. Tongue firmly in cheek. I'm really easy to get along with, personable, I know my system and how to get a great mix. I don't take any suggestions as a personal affront, an attack on my ego or skill set, so I'll often give it a try to see if it makes a difference. Usually it's just smooth sailing, the patrons at the venues I provide for know it's going to sound good. I talk with the bands beforehand to pick up the little things. How many vocals, do they ever trade off. Do the guitarists prefer if I bring up their solos, or do they have a lead patch/boost pedal What does everyone prefer in their monitors A foot on the monitor is fine, just don't try to stand on it. Little things like that. The bands always go away happy with the stage mix, lots of compliments from the FOH mix. I always have enough rig for the gig, so I'm never worried about blowing anything. I like being easy to work with, there's enough assholes in the world. No point adding to that. I think the fact that I'm a guitar player and I've gigged for the last 28 years gives me an idea of what it's like being on that side of the mic. So it all works our pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted July 19, 2012 Members Share Posted July 19, 2012 That is a good one! Mixing from stage,I find it hard to change {censored} on the fly,so I try to make sure its as close as I can get it before we start.What annoys me the most is when a guitarist in the audience says the guitar needs to come up,or a drummer tells my drummer that his toms are just "buried in the mix".I mean what else would you expect a drummer,or guitarist to say about a mix anyway?Lol And how do you bury toms in a mix that is 3-vocal ,1-guitar,1-bass,and 6-drum channels anyway?Lol I usually just say thanx,and maybe turn a knob slightly,and return where it was and say "I just found the problem! I pushed the 3K so let me know!" Man they never ever fail to let me know how much "better" it is now!!! Lol I got tired of our singer going out into the audience and immediately telling me to turn him up. The last two times I cranked him to feedback. He now leaves it alone. We're not that loud a band and don't need the singer to be the only thing that people hear. (He does sing well, but he's not masked by the musicians.) I do get frustrated by people who only have one cure for any sound ailment. Turn it up. That never works with feedback and every band I've ever heard has never sounded worse by backing off. I've often thought that some mixing test would be good so you can find out what people think needs to be louder than what. (The guitarist wanting more guitar and the lead singer wanting more vocals.) I would love to run my entire band through that and then critique the results together. I'm sure it would be eye opening for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueGreene Posted July 19, 2012 Members Share Posted July 19, 2012 I like being easy to work with, there's enough assholes in the world. No point adding to that. Amen to that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted July 19, 2012 Members Share Posted July 19, 2012 I was attending a panel discussion being held in a beautiful new room built for chamber music. The PA was unintelligible. Went back to the soundguy and asked if he wanted some help. He was a volunteer and didn't have a clue on how to fix any of the issues. (And was desparate for help.) Didn't really have suitable equipment but with a few changes had speech from the stage understandable. (Not pretty but functional.) Whoever set it up, didn't understand that the room was designed to have natural reverb and with a chamber group and no amps would be delightful. It was almost as bad as an old style gymnasium. (Michael Moore was one of the people on the discussion panel. The building was less than two years old and at a private University's campus.) Looking good isn't enough for this type of sound. (I do several panel discussions every election year. Frequently for the League of Women Voters, and local debates.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted July 19, 2012 Members Share Posted July 19, 2012 Unless it's a good friend who asks me "how does it sound?" and I know he's seriously looking for input, I never offer up an opinion. If it's a band I don't know all that well and they ask "howzit sound?" I usually just smile and comment on something I do like---"your vocalist is kick ass!"---or whatever.Most people don't really want criticism, they just want validation. And if you offer it up they're likely to just take a "what the {censored} does HE know...?" attitude anyway. Isn't worth it. If the soundguy isn't busy, I might inquire about their equipment, but there is a fairly large range of mixing styles and mine might not work for anyone else. (I still hate too much bass, but that seems to be what's in style for most of these guys. I hear bass very easily and always have. I don't like the dbc and dba scales to be more than 10 db different.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted July 19, 2012 CMS Author Share Posted July 19, 2012 Well, sure. If ten people come up and tell you they can't hear the singer then that's something you should probably pay attention to... What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted July 19, 2012 CMS Author Share Posted July 19, 2012 I've often thought that some mixing test would be good so you can find out what people think needs to be louder than what. (The guitarist wanting more guitar and the lead singer wanting more vocals.) I would love to run my entire band through that and then critique the results together. I'm sure it would be eye opening for everyone. Who decides what is "right" and what is "wrong" in this test? As I wrote earlier, music is a 100% subjective thing. There's no one right or wrong answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marko Posted July 19, 2012 Members Share Posted July 19, 2012 Who decides what is "right" and what is "wrong" in this test? As I wrote earlier, music is a 100% subjective thing. There's no one right or wrong answer. I think he Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted July 19, 2012 Members Share Posted July 19, 2012 Who decides what is "right" and what is "wrong" in this test? As I wrote earlier, music is a 100% subjective thing. There's no one right or wrong answer. That is exactly the point I'm making. Critique together and learn. I'm always setting my keyboards to augment and never to dominate the mix. Always trying to see the results from an audience point of view. There are musicians who think they aren't loud enough and turn up without thinking about what the audience will hear. (That drives me nuts.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Randyman Posted July 19, 2012 Members Share Posted July 19, 2012 The only time I say something is when the upper mid range is painful and/or the band is waaaaay too loud- for many guys, esp. super young ones, it's not having an impact unless it hurts. It's completely obvious sometimes that where the sound guy is sitting is not where most of the audience is, they hear something different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted July 19, 2012 Members Share Posted July 19, 2012 that it is seemingly OK for people/fellow soundmen, musicians, etc to come up to you at your job and make suggestions about how you're doing. When you think about it, that is not generally an accepted behavior anywhere else, is it? A buddy of mine, new to the sound business was asking how I dealt with people coming up telling you how to mix... I've definitely had less patience in years past. Now i just smile and nod or thank them for their opinion. sometimes itr does annoy you when some husband, wife, former bandmate, whatever comes up and tells you to add more bass or something. It reminded me of a comeback an experienced soundman friend once told me when asked to do something. He asked the backseat mixer(paraphrased) "so, what do you suppose the percentage is of people that can hear the smallest, finest details of sound like the one you're suggesting"? The person answered "only like 10%". so my friend replied "so, you're saying that there is a 90% chance you have no idea of what you're talking about"? Drum guys say..more kick. Guitar guys...more guitar. Singers...more vocal, I cant hear the vocal. Bass guys...you could use more bass. Banjo guys...I cant hear the banjo. Mando guys..you could use more mando in the mix. Smile...sure no problem I will take care of that. Me Smiling saying sure Ill take care of that..not changing a thing..later the guy comes back..that sounds much better thanks! More "ME" in the monitors plz! Can we get some talent in the monitors plz! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mutha Goose Posted July 19, 2012 Members Share Posted July 19, 2012 I would never walk up to a sound guy and tell him to fix this or that. Often when I'm out listening to bands, my girlfriend or who ever I'm with, will complain about the sound and will ask me if I would go fix it. Absolutely not. No matter how bad it is, that is completely arrogant and rude (IMO). Not to mention, if I'm out it is my night off. I work lights often as well, and will work with some of the same sound guys a lot. A few will ask for my opinion. I don't like to even give it when asked, and some of them I consider friends. But when I'm doing sound, there is no shortage of people who want to tell me what to do. Most of the time it's a passing comment; I thank them for their input and just let it slide. Sometimes people get insistant. You can usually tell if they are related to someone in the band (yes maam, I will turn your little Johnny up and make him sound like a true rock god!), or just some drunk with an opinion. I try to be as diplomatic as possible, but if they get too instant, I have no problem telling them to get the hell away from me. Luckily I've only had to do this a few times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nchangin Posted July 19, 2012 Members Share Posted July 19, 2012 Kinda torn on this topic, I saw a band my home town and everything was great but no snare...So I asked one sound guy nicely (during break) but it seems there is no snare in the mix? He said "aww {censored} you can hear that? The *** **** keeps hitting the mics with the sticks and we told him if he @##$^@#$ did it again no snare so he's off for the night" If I ever approach sound guy it's cause I have questions, and some are just pricks but many are like us they like to share the knowledge, I think half of it is the approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted July 19, 2012 Members Share Posted July 19, 2012 I play in a band and also do sound. The only thing any other pro will hear from me is "great show .... it sounded really good". If I think it sounded like a55, I'll shake my head and keep it to myself. The most uncomfortable situations I have been in (it has happened more than once) is going to see a friends band (which I have done sound for in the past) where the band and some in the crowd that know me ask me to go help the club sound guy. I always refuse. It has been my experience that SOME sound guys are very competent, but ALL sound guys believe they are competent. It would be a rare soundman indeed that would heed anything I would say anyway.... and to be honest, if they don't know me, why would they listen to me? I certainly don't listen to any "band people" telling me how to run my show or anyone elses. As previously stated, all guitar players thing the lead guitar should be louder. All bass players .... etc, etc. I think that anyone doing sound has their hands full without my input. If they don't have the gear or the know-how to make the band sound decent, I am not the one who needs to be sticking my nose into their business. Besides, sometimes even the best of soundguys can't get the band to sound good. The gear can be crap, the band can be crap, or the bands skill can be crap .... all of which they may have no control over. What I AM usually guilty of is talking to soundguys that DO sound good to see what they are using, and how they are setting it up. I have yet to have a single soundguy have any issue giving me the "lay of the land" on their setup. I usually let them know how I have been setting things up and the gear I use in exchange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted July 20, 2012 Members Share Posted July 20, 2012 Kinda torn on this topic, I saw a band my home town and everything was great but no snare...So I asked one sound guy nicely (during break) but it seems there is no snare in the mix? He said "aww {censored} you can hear that? The *** **** keeps hitting the mics with the sticks and we told him if he @##$^@#$ did it again no snare so he's off for the night" If I ever approach sound guy it's cause I have questions, and some are just pricks but many are like us they like to share the knowledge, I think half of it is the approach. He needed one of these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted July 20, 2012 Members Share Posted July 20, 2012 If I have to resort to that, they are going to have the bottom head only mic'ed and they will have to deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted July 20, 2012 Members Share Posted July 20, 2012 i once got a 57 back in three pieces after getting thwacked on the snare. i'm still pissed; it was a super old unidyne III and sounded way different than modern 57's. it had a cool sizzle in the upper mids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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