Layered wood

[FretFiend.]

I just got the latest copy of Wood and Steel. There was a section on the 100-200 series Taylors.

 

It would seem that "Layered Wood" is the new politically correct term for Plywood, AKA laminate.

 

Layered wood guitars, after all, do sound better than laminated wood guitars do.

 

[Idunno]

Do tell! God save the Laminate, long live the Layered! Hail to the Layered!

 

Umm, why are your reading that tripe, anyway? Is it online or in print? If it's the latter, is it on sustainable materials? Bob would be convulsed if he knew his deceitful word-play wasn't heralded on recycled materials. He is, after all, supportive of sustainable manufacturing.

 

On the reality side of the coining, I think plywood is a fine choice of materials for use in guitars. I never have shot it down for that use. I do think people have brainwashed themselves into thinking solid is better than plywood regardless of the structural component it's used for.

 

Besides, lets examine the word itself shall we? Ply, as in to move upon, or over or put into effect, and Wood, the object to associate plying with. Both are natural occurrences and therefore wholesome in their relationship. Add an a in the right place and we have Playwood. Old Bob lacks imagination, methinks.

 

[Gary Blanchard]

Luna Guitars just came out with a new guitar that they call their Wabi Sabi line. The Japanese concept of Wabi Sabi embraces the imperfections of life; these guitars use solid tops that may not be perfect (though the top on the one on their website looks pretty good). This allows them to sell a solid top guitar at "layered wood" prices.

http://www.lunaguitars.com/acousticproduct/wabisabiegc.php

 

I must admit "layered wood" is right up there with "pre-owned" as a way of putting lipstick on a pig.

[Idunno]

Chris Baker used to maintain a wabi sabi mantra here some years back and I do believe it was his basis for bringing original creativity to the VOM1T.

[FretFiend.]

Bob Taylor makes a big deal out of the fact that indeed the print version of Wood and Steel is printed on recycled material.

 

After all, Bob is from California.

 

I hear that Taylor is going to make a line of guitars made out of recycled guitars parts.

 

Just think! Your next Taylor could have pieces of Zagers and Estebans in it.

[EdBega]

Don't know why anyone would buy layered when you can find solid tops in the two hundreds price range ...

[Idunno]

Bob Taylor makes a big deal out of the fact that indeed the print version of Wood and Steel is printed on recycled material.

 

After all, Bob is from California.

 

I hear that Taylor is going to make a line of guitars made out of recycled guitars parts.

 

Just think! Your next Taylor could have pieces of Zagers and Estebans in it.

 

Just making sure. Bob is a concerned global citizen, after all. I work with a cat from california. They breed them over there with tails and then train them to keep them neatly between their legs while philosophizing the attributes of Chicken Little.

[Emory]

Didn't Bob Taylor make a nice guitar out of pallet wood some years back? And was there a French guy in 19th made body out of papier mache? Maybe not so much the plying as the glue that might such tone? I've heard good laminates and poor solid tops.... and once a builder starts add inlays and such.... that is laminating.... hey, if it sounds good, it sounds good. Maybe some A/B blind tests are in order.

[Gary Blanchard]

As a guy who has played cheap guitars for damn near 50 years, I must say the quality of cheap guitars is higher than ever. The Lunas I own are perfect for my needs and my budget, and there are a number of other guitars in that price range that are good.

[Idunno]

I'd champion cheap guitars if it paid a stipend or so.

 

Taylor did indeed make a crate guitar. It was book-matched pallet slats replete with nail holes (filled) and an inlay of a fork lift on the fretboard, IIRC. Hideous-looking piece of dunnage but otherwise functional.

[FretFiend.]

It might interest you to know that the online version of Wood and Steel is made up entirely of recycled electrons.

[kwakatak]

It's just another name used to overcome the snobbery. I've heard the term "double sides" used as well. The selling point that they're resistant to key cracks. Having had a guitar get el kabonged as such I can certainly see that selling point in a more positive light. As for the backs, I know of at least one luthier type here attest that it has little effect on tone, which I don't buy into. I notice subtle differences in tone if I play with the back of the guitar away from my body.

 

think the appeal with "layered" side vs. the laminates of old is that the older term describes the use of a central layer of an inferior wood whereas the newer term describes the marriage of two or more higher quality woods, with some builders using porous "nomex" (?) to create a void between the outer layers, reducing weight and negating the damping effect of a beer gut against the "outer" back.

 

6 of one and a half dozen of another to me, as they used to say.

[guitarist21]

El Kabonged! Stealing that.

[guitarcapo]

I think there's actually a new fashion among luthiers to make the sides very stiff by doubling them. The idea is to actually NOT have the sides vibrate and keep all the energy at the top for more sustain. The sides are actually "damped" by the arm and knee touching them when you are holding the guitar...so you want them to not convey energy to the player's body there.

[FretFiend.]

El Kabonged! Stealing that.

 

[video=youtube;010aaw1Ajo0]

[guitarist21]

well i just love this

[Idunno]

Plywood is a name for a manufactured board of certain dimensions comprised of thin veneers of wood glued and compressed together with their grain lines running 90 degrees out from each other. There are many thicknesses and grades. Some are furniture grade, aviation grade and musical instrument grade, to name a few of the higher quality layups. Aviation grade is usually used over structures such as the d-box of the wing airfoil shape from the leading edge to the main spar. It's 5-7 layers and about 1/16th to 3/32nds of an inch thick and pound for pound, it's more expensive than any solid veneer of similar dimension. Musical grade stuff is very similar, though less expensive and furniture grade is even less. Despite the engineered structural strengths and quality of materials used, it still falls off the quality scale where people have been brainwashed into thinking only solid woods should be used in musical instrument construction. This, despite the fact that there isn't one shred of evidence to support their opinions other than their claimed ability to hear a difference, which I would hasten to challenge in a blind test given the opportunity, and 5 bucks will buy a fancy bad coffee at Starbucks.

[FretFiend.]

As far as the back and sides, you might have something there. As far as the top goes, you're all wet.

[Idunno]

How do you know, FF? Countless times you've let it be known you just can't seem to learn how to play your guitar (to your own satisfaction, I assume). If you can't play, you can't develop a good ear. No ear, no credible claim on the distinctions between tones can be believed from you. So, who's all wet?

 

It isn't about sitting and listening to countless examples put before you over a period of time. It's a hands-on, A/B comparison with the chops to make objective conclusions.

 

We laud this brand over that brand and Taylor always takes the beating. RT1, who can make hey with an acoustic guitar, prefers his Taylor over others who make like Martin is the better sounding guitar. Are we speaking from qualified ear-skills or just making chat?

 

I'd like to take the blind challenge myself but fear the results would prove my $$$ choices poorly made.

 

Remember that people have always evaded facts when faiths paint the rosier picture.

[Neal]

He obviously read it from countless opinion posts from the myriad of experts that proliferate the internet with opposing and thoughtful opinions. He's just chosen the side that sounds good to him and is defending it the only way he knows how.

 

I don't see why you've chosen now, at this point to challenge the man, or to what purpose.

[Neal]

He obviously read it from countless opinion posts from the myriad of experts that proliferate the internet with opposing and thoughtful opinions. He's just chosen the side that sounds good to him and is defending it the only way he knows how.

 

I don't see why you've chosen now, at this point to challenge the man, or to what purpose.

 

Weird, the post is deleted, then this isn't showing up... odd technical forum behavior.. sorry if this is a double post.

[Idunno]

Up till now I've not been personally challenged to come to the table to exchange wits and experiences. The gloves are on. But, should it devolve to the linguistics of idiots or "Einsteins", I will remove myself and leave it there to suffer itself.

[FretFiend.]

How do you know, FF? Countless times you've let it be known you just can't seem to learn how to play your guitar (to your own satisfaction, I assume). If you can't play, you can't develop a good ear. No ear, no credible claim on the distinctions between tones can be believed from you. So, who's all wet?

 

It isn't about sitting and listening to countless examples put before you over a period of time. It's a hands-on, A/B comparison with the chops to make objective conclusions.

 

We laud this brand over that brand and Taylor always takes the beating. RT1, who can make hey with an acoustic guitar, prefers his Taylor over others who make like Martin is the better sounding guitar. Are we speaking from qualified ear-skills or just making chat?

 

I'd like to take the blind challenge myself but fear the results would prove my $$$ choices poorly made.

 

Remember that people have always evaded facts when faiths paint the rosier picture.

 

There's a considerable difference between being unable to play a guitar and being unable to distinguish tone. So, perhaps yet, you are indeed all wet.

 

However, in the interest of objectivity, offer two examples of identically built guitars, one having a solid top, vs one with a laminated top.

Perhaps you can do better than I, but your basic Yamaha guitars probably present the best examples. If you can't tell the difference between a 300 series and a 700 series, then you should reexamine your thinking.

 

BTW, the original intent of the thread was to note that the term plywood, is less desirable than laminate, and in turn, the term laminate has accumulated a stigma of its own, motivating someone to seek a less maligned name.

[Neal]

Up till now I've not been personally challenged to come to the table to exchange wits and experiences. The gloves are on. But' date=' should it devolve to the linguistics of idiots or "Einsteins", I will remove myself and leave it there to suffer itself.[/quote']

 

 

 

Well, it's devolved. There's talk of... Yamahas and tone in the same response. Being " able to distinguish tone" he is..Umm, nah. Let it go, my better self says.

 

 

 

Carry on, it was interesting popping in.

[Idunno]

 

There's a considerable difference between being unable to play a guitar and being unable to distinguish tone. So, perhaps yet, you are indeed all wet.

 

However, in the interest of objectivity, offer two examples of identically built guitars, one having a solid top, vs one with a laminated top.

Perhaps you can do better than I, but your basic Yamaha guitars probably present the best examples. If you can't tell the difference between a 300 series and a 700 series, then you should reexamine your thinking.

 

BTW, the original intent of the thread was to note that the term plywood, is less desirable than laminate, and in turn, the term laminate has accumulated a stigma of its own, motivating someone to seek a less maligned name.

 

You have proof of this as well or you're once again citing influential popular conception? You truly believe you can pass your own blind test without cheating? I don't think you can. Trust me when I say that I'm calling these conceptions out for a blind test and including myself in the challenge. Sound is in the build, not the materials. I think James Goodall could prove this to anyone with his own use of plywood but he wouldn't risk his reputation on the engineered product's unpopular stigma.

 

It's the only method to reveal who prefers what sound over another and does not need to be fettered with the notion of better or worse, though such categorization is usually the easiest way of it. It doesn't need to include the impossible (and therefore false) notion of listening for plywood from solid wood, either. It's merely a sound sampling and deciding which is preferred. Then we take the blinders off and smile at our revelations. That is the original intent.

 

I went to the Taylor site after your thread starter here and read their idea of layered wood. To my vague notions of wood's sonic attributes, coupled with Taylor's penchant for quality over responsible material consumption, I could only think that they were positively influenced by the engineered plywood they put into use. If Bob Taylor gives it a green light it furthers my idea that such a lay-up of materials can be engineered to exceed the sonic qualities of even the best known soundboards of solid wood.

 

I played a Rainsong at GC the other day (OM model number forgotten) and thought it has a very respectable sound. It certainly made the Gibsons in the room yesterday's news. I even toyed with the idea of replacing the wood guitars I have, that will certainly need some future TLC, with a carbon fiber OM model like the one I was playing.

 

Plywood has not been fully explored as a top wood, IMO, because solids are traditional and get the popular vote. But, I do envision solid veneers in the hands of skilled luthiers (not necessarily builders) experimented with and eventually eliciting popularity amongst a more progressive audience. At the moment all we know is what we've been told so we play to the safe side of the sonic unknown. That would be to believe what we've been told rather than put it to the challenge of personal experimentation and final proof.

 

Whatever comes down the road in materials use should be interesting but at the moment I'm getting ready to enjoy a nice cup of coffee with some girl scout cookies that just got delivered to my door. Shortbreads, if you're curious.