Big Church Rig - Poop Sound

[IsildursBane]

Visiting my brother in Houston this week, and the family attended the Christmas Eve service at his 10,000 seat megachurch.

3x 10-box hangs of Meyer Milos, with 4-box hangs of subs (M3D, I think) in between.

The sound was atrocious. The band was mixed super loud, with plenty of "big huge drums" and vocals, but not much else. (I went up in the video booth and asked if they were listening to just a drum+vocal submix and they said no - they were getting the same mix that the house was) Most of the open mics, including the lavs, piano, and strings sounded like they had steep HPF's applied somewhere north of 200Hz. Even the video playback sounded terrible with lots of midrange honk.

But the kick drum did have lots of click.

Seriously, half a million bucks+ worth of speakers and it was embarrassingly bad.

-Dan.

[Dookietwo]

I remember quite a few years ago a local church got in touch with me. They were not happy with their sound. Said it was way too thin sounding. I went in and looked things over. For my area it was a nice setup it seemed. I didn't care for the system once I looked it over close and gave it a listen. They had some Bag End subs that were high cut at 90 hz. Some EAW speaker that were flown with strange odd angles. The EAW speakers were a horn loaded type that per. EAW spec were not designed and could not reproduce below 250hz. This would mean a big hole between 90 and 250 hz!
They had a nice Crest desk and very good DSP processing. I looked the DSP over and sure enough there was the Bag End processor after the DSP which was set to 90hz also. The EAW speakers were set to 250hz and above! When I asked about the install the church music Pastor said they didn't know much about it other than they were told they got a good deal on the speakers as the people who sold them had 4 extra of the EAW speakers from a different install they did! (Sounds like someone got rid of some speakers they didn't need)
In the end we moved the EAW speakers around and added a 2-18 sub flown under the Bag Ends to cover the 90-250 hz range. I spent about 3 hours before the service to sound check the praise band. Everyone was very happy. The service started and many people started to come up and say how good everything sounded. The volunteer church sound people took over. 3 of the churches Pastors came up and told them what to do. Within a 1/2 an hour everything was mush.
Great system now but the guys doing the mix were told what to do. Too many cooks I guess.

As you heard it takes much more than a good system to sound good. 5 people trying to do the mix when only 1 knows what is going on is sometimes the norm in church settings.

I have a before picture of the install. We hung a 2-18 sub under the Bag Ends after the photo and moved the eaw speakers together in pairs as well. With the subs in the center we couldn't put the EAW speakers in a center cluster of 3.

Dookietwo

EDIT: Many years later I went in and they had installed a QSC line array in the room. Same sound....

[heath_eld]

Does sound like the sound favoured by a lot of "large church" engineers - drums and vocals, and anything else serves to just fill it out.

[fdew]

As a church sound guy I encourage you to write them. Church is all about the sound. If people don't like the sound and come back they don't hear the message. It could be just what they need to send there techs for some training.

[WynnD]

I don't get the 2-18's to cover the 90-250 frequency range. Isn't that a little high for those speakers? (Unless you're talking about the Cerwin-Vega 18" driver that was used in the Acoustic 301 cabinet. That one had a lot of highs.)

Sorry all your work was trashed. (Maybe they like the smiley face on the EQ.)

[agedhorse]

Originally Posted by WynnD

I don't get the 2-18's to cover the 90-250 frequency range. Isn't that a little high for those speakers? (Unless you're talking about the Cerwin-Vega 18" driver that was used in the Acoustic 301 cabinet. That one had a lot of highs.)

Sorry all your work was trashed. (Maybe they like the smiley face on the EQ.)

Many 18's have a fully useable response above 250hz

[agedhorse]

Having good tools is only one part of the equation. Understanding how they work and the art of the trade is an even larger and more difficult part of the big picture. It's where many applications fail miserably.

[Pro Sound Guy]

Originally Posted by IsildursBane

Visiting my brother in Houston this week, and the family attended the Christmas Eve service at his 10,000 seat megachurch.

3x 10-box hangs of Meyer Milos, with 4-box hangs of subs (M3D, I think) in between.

The sound was atrocious. The band was mixed super loud, with plenty of "big huge drums" and vocals, but not much else. (I went up in the video booth and asked if they were listening to just a drum+vocal submix and they said no - they were getting the same mix that the house was) Most of the open mics, including the lavs, piano, and strings sounded like they had steep HPF's applied somewhere north of 200Hz. Even the video playback sounded terrible with lots of midrange honk.

But the kick drum did have lots of click.

Seriously, half a million bucks+ worth of speakers and it was embarrassingly bad.

-Dan.

If you put your head next to a kick drum and guy hits it with a felt beater the natural sound has NO click. The click is operator made, and it just sounds like the whole problem was operator error.
A friend of mine quit doing any sound at a huge church in this area because the
church decided that almost anyone who volunteers to be involved with the sound
at the church is taken on and can be part of the team. Way messed up.
I remember they rented my system out at a park in town and their entire
crew showed up with the band. At the end of the night one of them was trying
to yank a speakon connector out of one of my monitors and had no idea you had
to pull the release TURN and pull I was not to happy about the attempt.
My friend now goes to a church where they only have two BE's with experience, and
the pastor hires out musicians from the University music program here, and he pays everyone to play and do sound. Night and day difference in sound operations compared to the mega church and their band is amazingly good as well.

[dboomer]

 

Originally Posted by agedhorse

Many 18's have a fully useable response above 250hz

 

And even much higher than that. The crossover point usually isn't about getting level and flat frequency response. Usually most people want to keep vocals out of the subs so they cross at 125 Hz or below. But you could easily create a three way system with an 18" woofer and cross it at 400 Hz if you wanted to.

[agedhorse]

 

Originally Posted by dboomer

And even much higher than that. The crossover point usually isn't about getting level and flat frequency response. Usually most people want to keep vocals out of the subs so they cross at 125 Hz or below. But you could easily create a three way system with an 18" woofer and cross it at 400 Hz if you wanted to.

 

As well as localization of the sound source above ~125Hz becomes more of a challenge when the subs are located apart from the tops... especially in a flown system.

[StratGuy22]

You couldn't pay me enough to get involved with any sound that had to do with a church.

[IsildursBane]

Originally Posted by Pro Sound Guy

it just sounds like the whole problem was operator error.

Oh, of that I have no doubt.

Originally Posted by StratGuy22

You couldn't pay me enough to get involved with any sound that had to do with a church.

While I definitely see the potential for things to go very wrong, I've been fortunate to have had pretty good luck with it.

-Dan.

[agedhorse]

 

Originally Posted by StratGuy22

You couldn't pay me enough to get involved with any sound that had to do with a church.

 

I am working with one that holds the title of "Church of the Holy Disfunction" with a primary committee of professional bullies and a subcommittee of professional victims. The bullies are trying to make me a victim but they have underestimated my comprehension of the situation. I am the third contractor involved with this project and I can promise that there will be a fourth and probably a long continuing progression, each learning that they are unable to make this client happy because they are their own worst enemy.

[RoadRanger]

 

Originally Posted by heath_eld

Does sound like the sound favoured by a lot of "large church" engineers - drums and vocals, and anything else serves to just fill it out.

 

I've seen that at local clubs too .

[RoadRanger]

 

Originally Posted by agedhorse

Many 18's have a fully useable response above 250hz

 

Heck, I used to play bass through a Peavey 1x18 BW cab no prob - I'm sure it had output well above 2KHz. Oh, and I used to cross over from the CV 18" bass bins to the tops at 250Hz in the bad old days...

[RoadRanger]

 

Originally Posted by StratGuy22

You couldn't pay me enough to get involved with any sound that had to do with a church.

 

Those locals that I know that do installs make good $$$ from them - they have much more $$$ to spend than the clubs...

[Dookietwo]

Originally Posted by StratGuy22

You couldn't pay me enough to get involved with any sound that had to do with a church.

I did all I did for that church for free. Just as a community support kind of thing. First and last time for that.
After I did all of that for free about once a week for months they would call saying there was a problem with the PA. I would go and the mix would be terrible. I'd fix it and leave. Come back a week later with the same thing.
The calls didn't stop until I told them there was nothing else I could do but mix them every weekend. I thought $750 a week would cover it. No more calls.............

Dookietwo

[agedhorse]

Originally Posted by Dookietwo

I did all I did for that church for free. Just as a community support kind of thing. First and last time for that.
After I did all of that for free about once a week for months they would call saying there was a problem with the PA. I would go and the mix would be terrible. I'd fix it and leave. Come back a week later with the same thing.
The calls didn't stop until I told them there was nothing else I could do but mix them every weekend. I thought $750 a week would cover it. No more calls.............

Dookietwo

This is a lesson well worth learning IMO. We's all been down this road, not all churches are like this but enough to make the generalization "generally true".

[StratGuy22]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

I am working with one that holds the title of "Church of the Holy Disfunction" with a primary committee of professional bullies and a subcommittee of professional victims. The bullies are trying to make me a victim but they have underestimated my comprehension of the situation. I am the third contractor involved with this project and I can promise that there will be a fourth and probably a long continuing progression, each learning that they are unable to make this client happy because they are their own worst enemy.

I can only imagine. Bullies, egos, and know-it-alls oh my.


I'm sure it matters little that you design this stuff.


They KNOW how it should be ran, right or wrong, and heaven help you if you disagree. Church world be a nice endeavor, if there weren't so many assholes there.

Maybe just going by the church I used to go to. As far as talent, way too many wanna-be divas with no clue. I was asked once to help but I politely declined. I wasn't going to be a part of that mess. They had 4 groups they rotated through on a weekly basis. 2 would have been no problem, would would have been a headache and the last, I could see brig pretty much impossible.

Like you said, if you set things they would have changed back to the mush, because of the couple people that knew everything. Bullies, like you said. I definitely wanted no part of that.

[Scodiddly]

The smart churches will hire whoever they actually need to hire - whether it's a competent sound tech, or a better drummer, or whatever. The ones that rely solely on volunteers sometimes do well, but its a crapshoot.

I did a lot of volunteer work at a folk club that had a lot of pro acts come through. Almost all of the sound techs were unpaid volunteers, but there was also an occasional series of classes from one of the professionals, there was a bit of a mentoring program, and the manager would pay for one of the pros if it was going to be a complex show. That's the right way to use volunteers.

[RoadRanger]

"No good deed goes unpunished"

[dboomer]

 

Originally Posted by agedhorse

As well as localization of the sound source above ~125Hz becomes more of a challenge when the subs are located apart from the tops... especially in a flown system.

 

I should have been more complete. I meant a 3 way system in one box to avoid just this. Of course it all depends on how far apart the speakers are no matter the frequency

[agedhorse]

Choose your volunteers very, very carefully.

[OneEng]

 

Originally Posted by RoadRanger

"No good deed goes unpunished"

 

One of my favorite sayings

[heath_eld]

I've done the church sound thing fairly extensively at 2 churches and helped out at the odd other one. I've generally had good experiences with the odd "moment"... they've got people with strange ideas, people who think its too loud, too quiet, etc... but so do the pro bands i work for. The difference? The pro band thats paying me, to some extent, i have to do what they say. As a volunteer, i feel free to give input - the church environments i have experienced, they were willing enough to accept that input.