Members W. M. Hellinger Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 One important aspect (IMO) that commonly seemingly gets over-looked, and is not specific to churches, but is seemingly "more common" in churches is: "Sophistication to the point of uselessness." or "Sophistication beyond a practical point of diminished returns." I personally believe "we" are living in a functional comparative "dark ages" where the general public's intellect associated with "how & why" is possibly on-par with the general public of Europe after the fall of the Western Roman Empire. Comparatively that is, because the sophistication level of the how & why is possibly advancing faster than the general public can assimilate. The reason it's evident with church sound is two-fold: First there's a higher likelihood of finance availability combined with the perceived need concerning churches. While the sound at a church might be lousy and the sound of a low-budget band at a dive nightclub might be lousy, I'd suspect it's more likely that a wealthy dowager would hand a check over to "fix it" to a church, rather than a bar band. Second: I'd say it's likely many or most of the folks involved with the church "sound situation" are generally volunteers... and really... what level of accountability can you hold volunteers to? I'd suspect church systems are generally spec-ed and installed by either well meaning volunteers or professional contractors... generally either group is following marching orders of: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpaceNorman Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by RoadRanger"No good deed goes unpunished"One of my favorites - along with its sister saying.... "Time wounds all heels" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fdew Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by W. M. Hellinger Second: I'd say it's likely many or most of the folks involved with the church "sound situation" are generally volunteers... and really... what level of accountability can you hold volunteers to? I'd suspect church systems are generally spec-ed and installed by either well meaning volunteers or professional contractors... generally either group is following marching orders of: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by fdew There are a number of forums and magazines available just for church sound. ... and they exist (for the most part) to ram new product sales down their throats... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fdew Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by agedhorse ... and they exist (for the most part) to ram new product sales down their throats... For the magazines, I agree The forums I subscribe to our VERY helpful and selling is forbidden. In my opinion, the best is ChurchSoundCheck.com. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by fdew For the magazines, I agree The forums I subscribe to our VERY helpful and selling is forbidden. In my opinion, the best is ChurchSoundCheck.com. I should have clarified... magazines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 Originally Posted by fdew What you describe does happen, and it happens to often. There are a number of talented and dedicated people that are working to change that. Churches are just like bar bands, corporate meetings, wedding receptions and everywhere else there is sound reinforcement. Some of them care about good sound and make sure they get it and some don't. I didn't quote your whole quote... it was all worth quoting.My point is: If you're gonna build a space shuttle... just building it isn't enough... you gotta have somebody to fly the machine.If the church is willing to put the training (if needed) into the operators (and users) of whatever machine is installed, then fine. Otherwise build a machine suitable to the skills of the likely available operators.Oftentimes people problems are much more difficult to overcome than technical problems... and: A lot of the times, the people problems might be the most challenging obstical.And: Churches are generally a people thing first, and a technical thing some distant second... but endless money seems to be spent in a misguided attempt on the symptom rather than the problem... which oftentimes compounds the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IsildursBane Posted December 28, 2012 Author Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 FWIW, at least in the case of the church I described in the OP, I don't think that either "sophistication for the sake of sophistication" or lack of technical training were the problems. I didn't get a detailed look at the system (or even the desk), but just from eyeballing the speakers, it appeared to be appropriately sized to the room (10k seats). I did get a better look at the video booth and that was fairly modest; I assume the audio provisions were similar - adequate but not extravagant. Also, nothing sounded broken or like the operators didn't know how to get sound from Point A to Point B. To get it sounding the way they did, they'd obviously had some experience. Rather, I think the issue was one of aesthetic training - the guy just didn't craft a very good mix. IME, this is where volunteers really fall short. Operating the equipment so you can hear things is easy. Making it sound good is a craft that requires not just classroom training, but constant listening and studying and practice. -Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fdew Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 Originally Posted by IsildursBane FWIW,Operating the equipment so you can hear things is easy. Making it sound good is a craft that requires not just classroom training, but constant listening and studying and practice.-Dan. Amen Amen. This why I like to teach a musician to mix. A good one has a head start on critical listening and understanding the music. The best person we ever had on the board at church was a retired professional flutist. She had no idea what a XLR was but she knew good music and she knew how to get it. One example, she never used cans. she could hear and pick out each individual person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 One problem with musicians mixing is that they tend to favor parts... Ie. often they have preconceived ideas as to how it "must" sound without considering context. A good mixer will consider many different factors when developing a mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IsildursBane Posted December 28, 2012 Author Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 Originally Posted by agedhorse One problem with musicians mixing is that they tend to favor parts... Ie. often they have preconceived ideas as to how it "must" sound without considering context. A good mixer will consider many different factors when developing a mix. While this is true, all other things being equal, I'd prefer starting with a mixer who's got more of a musical background than one with less.-Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 Originally Posted by IsildursBane While this is true, all other things being equal, I'd prefer starting with a mixer who's got more of a musical background than one with less.-Dan. Musical background is different than being a musician... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 ^ As long as they aren't a lead guitarist (unless they are also an EE ) they're good to go - but everyone knows that bass players make the best sound guys . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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