The key of WTF or "odd charts"

[wades_keys]

I've played a fair amount of last minute fill-in gigs on bass in the last several years, and have come across some "interesting" key signatures on the setlists.

 

A#

 

Or my favorite: songs that start on the vi or ii chord, but that chord becomes the "key". So I always do an initial run-through on the setlist and make corrections to suit: this has eliminated a lot of wasted time and back and forth and let's me get to work on the tunes immediately with no back and forth and no excuses. Also, to avoid pointless theory disputes and confusion, once I've noticed an error along those lines, I defer to using the first chord of the song as the "key" - basically, I adapt my thinking to theirs.

 

Any other tricks of the trade for dealing with these goofy charts?

[MDLMUSIC]

I use the OnSong app on my iPad to keep track of all my songs. OnSong assumes that the first chord denotes the song's key which, as was pointed out, is not always the case. So to trick it, I put the "key" chord at the beginning of the song so it doesn't mess with my head.

[Vito Corleone]

Basically --- when it doubt, ask.

 

Key designations on a setlist are little more than a simple reference point so everyone plays in the right key. If a song starts on Bm, and everyone in the band thinks of the song as being in Bm, then it is irrelevant if the song is technically in D. Remember---this is a setlist, not a chart. And it's a gig, not a music theory class. When I'm glancing down at a setlist to see what song is next, knowing what the first chord I'm going to play is is usually more helpful to me than knowing the proper key.

 

I've also noticed that when I hand out set lists to the other guys in the band, they sometimes cross out the key I've noted and write in something else. Why? I actually don't know or care, but I presume it's because they either start on a different chord than I do or they think of the song as being in a different key than I do. That's all good. Who cares if one guy thinks the song is in G, another thinks it's in D and another thinks it's in Em? What's important is that we all play the song correctly.

 

And yeah...when filling in, adapting your thinking to theirs is pretty much what "filling in" means. You've gotta fit in with their program. Not the other way around.

 

 

[joshmac]

Everyone has different ways to learn. Personally, if I am writing a setlist to play at a gig with subs/fill ins, I always write the first chord beside the songs. Then if someone happens not to know the song well enough to know that it starts on the vi instead of the I, it keeps everyone on same page.

 

I have played with many guys who dont know a lick of music theory but held it down and delivered each and every song we played. That is what is important to me. I do accept knowing the major scale and it's degrees as common knowledge, but I definitely dont judge the person if they prefer to learn songs in a different way or dont have that knowledge. As long as they sound good and deliver, whatever

[wesg]

My preference, when handed a set list, is "Key of A, starts on the V". But I'll work with anything, it's all about getting the job done.

 

But when somebody asks me what mode I'm using for a solo, I usually answer, "mixedup-o-lydian". Or "that pentatonic scale with six notes that starts on A". I got an "A" in High School music, but we never went much beyond naming chords and intervals as far as music theory went. I'd really to fix that someday.

[WynnD]

OnSong does have the option of setting a key different from the first chord. Love the App. Got a play feature and a scroll feature that I recently found. (Haven't been through all the videos.) Having the correct key helps with solos and playing especially if the song starts with different chord.

[SpaceNorman]

I try to avoid debates regarding keys and chords. At the same time, I rarely trust that the key I'm told a song is in .. is in fact the key that it's actually in. I make a point of asking what's the "first chord" being played - along with what note is the bass player playing. I find that when armed with those two pieces of information - 95+% of the time I've got everything I need to take it from there. Whenever somebody hands me a set list that includes keys ... I tend to treat it like a "suggestion" .. and maybe try that key first ... but am always ready to be disappointed.

[Lee Knight]

I have no desire to discuss or argue theory with band mates. I lost interest in that years ago. But I will correctly write the key on my personal notes. Starting chord, for me, does nothing to help me... except avoid making a mistake on the downbeat. If I know the key is D, for instance, I'll be able to hear what chord degree that first chord is within a bar or so. Better... If I know the song is in D, and I whisper to another player, what's the first chord?!?!... I'm good.

[MartinC]

Thing is there is always someone who knows more. I had a violinist in my group who was a symphony player- guy was really skilled as he had played his entire life, blah blah. Whenever I'd hand him some music, he'd start writing on it, correcting it. Who was I to argue? At the same time, because he had spent his life playing mostly in orchestras,. he was not as familiar with some of the conventions of playing in a small group. Although he was a bit of a gear head, he seemed to struggle with his gear quite a bit. But when it came to written music in standard notation, nobody I knew was going to tell this guy how it should be.

[Iamthesky]

Whenever somebody hands me a set list that includes keys ... I tend to treat it like a "suggestion" .. and maybe try that key first ... but am always ready to be disappointed.

Exactly. The curse of being a keyboard player is sometimes we really do need to know what the actual key is, if I'm doing rapid runs on the Minimoog, for example. Like SpaceNorman, I like someone to tell me what key they think it is, but only because it gives me a starting point. It does at least tell you three of the notes that are in the key. If they don't tell me, I start in E; either it's right, or it's simple to get to the right key from there. I sometimes think E is to guitarists what C is to piano players.

 

Victor Wooten (in The Music Lesson) had it right: worst case you're never more than a semitone off, and a "wrong" note played in the groove sounds like a right note.

[wades_keys]

The "first chord" convention seems to rule the day in modern, unwritten music. I suspected as much. Cool discussion.

[SpaceNorman]

I have no desire to discuss or argue theory with band mates. I lost interest in that years ago.....

 

This ... definitely this! Especially so since even folks who are very knowledgeable in theory regularly differ on what's the most right way to express a given passage. I tend to take the "no desire to discuss or argue" philosophy even farther when it comes to resolving differences in what chords band mates came up with when learning songs by ear. I virtually always go with whatever whoever seems to feel the strongest about it says the chord is. It just isn't worth spending any time on at all - even if I'm 100% certain that the chord they're playing isn't the "right" one. As long as we're all playing the same chord - "right" or "wrong" just doesn't matter all that much. It's certainly not worth spending time on.

[Iamthesky]

Yeah, I'd never correct a guitarist who told me the first chord instead. I may need to know the actual key, but I can figure that out for myself and put that in my notes. Clearly the others know what they need to know to play it, and that's cool. As long as we're all playing together then it really doesn't matter what tricks we use to keep it straight in our own heads.

 

That said, our drummer and I find it fascinating talking over stuff like this. We just don't let it get in the way of the music.

[Lee Knight]

Interesting discussion.

 

Frankly... I always felt kind of sorry for players that didn't get the idea of key center. If you have a tune in Am and the first chord is F... to not "get" what it really means that the song is in Am, that just robs the player of a certain amount of owning the tune and really getting inside it, restricting his ability to hear changes before they happen. Knowledge of key center helps in choosing more interesting notes against any given chord. Listen large and wing it!

 

I am a big proponent of understanding the diatonic chord series. And keys have everything to do with that. I've never been bound by theory but that kind of theory really helps a player's ability to open up and be free with the music. Then the chords can go anywhere, but knowing they are somehow revolving around Am is a HUGE help for me.

 

So, while I never correct players, if they're interested and want to learn, I'm more than excited to share this awesome stuff. Cool beans.

[SpaceNorman]

Yeah' date=' I'd never correct a guitarist who told me the first chord instead. I may need to know the actual key, but I can figure that out for myself and put that in my notes.....[/quote']

 

Agreed - it rarely makes sense to correct anybody on stuff like this. We each have our own way of keeping this stuff straight in our heads. As long as a player manages to keep it straight in his/her head - who am I to argue with his/her method.

 

I've got lots of proclivities in this regard myself - for example, I never play Db, Gb chords - in my mind they're always C# and F# chords. Conversely, I never play D#, G# or A# chords - in my mind they're always Eb, Ab and Bb chords. Regardless of the actual key. When jotting down chords - I'm a liberal user of the slash chord construct - especially when the "over X" note is the lowest note in the voicing I want to use. For example - I'll jot down AbMaj7 / Bb before I'd ever write BbMaj9. I realize that there's a more theoretically correct way of visualizing this stuff - but screw that - right, wrong or indifferent - my way is what comes natural to me.

 

The only time key vs first chord discrepancies are a real problem is when you don't get a second to test it before the downbeat (i.e., jams, sub-gigs, etc.). When somebody tells you they're playing in the key of X ... and what they really meant (knowingly or unknowingly) is that the first chord is an X ... the door has been thrown open wide for squirrelliness!

[TIMKEYS]

I try to avoid debates regarding keys and chords. At the same time' date=' I rarely trust that the key I'm told a song is in .. is in fact the key that it's actually in. I make a point of asking what's the "first chord" being played - along with what note is the bass player playing. I find that when armed with those two pieces of information - 95+% of the time I've got everything I need to take it from there. Whenever somebody hands me a set list that includes keys ... I tend to treat it like a "suggestion" .. and maybe try that key [i']first[/i] ... but am always ready to be disappointed.

 

Yea pretty much. Typically key sig is a no brainer but then you do have songs like sweet home that you can end up in a debate about what key its actually in... and the topic of a chord being a flat 7 comes up. If its a steve miller song its prolly gonna have a flat 7 .

[SeniorBlues]

Interesting discussion.

 

Frankly... I always felt kind of sorry for players that didn't get the idea of key center. If you have a tune in Am and the first chord is F... to not "get" what it really means that the song is in Am, that just robs the player of a certain amount of owning the tune and really getting inside it, restricting his ability to hear changes before they happen. Knowledge of key center helps in choosing more interesting notes against any given chord. Listen large and wing it!

 

I am a big proponent of understanding the diatonic chord series. And keys have everything to do with that. I've never been bound by theory but that kind of theory really helps a player's ability to open up and be free with the music. Then the chords can go anywhere, but knowing they are somehow revolving around Am is a HUGE help for me.

 

So, while I never correct players, if they're interested and want to learn, I'm more than excited to share this awesome stuff. Cool beans.

 

This.....

 

Some of the harder songs get played by rote, but at some point, you want to be able to understand where you are functionally. For that reason, I've tried to avoid slash chords, except in passing, and I try to spell chords correctly to help me understand how the piece works.

[SeniorBlues]

. . . and "Sweet Home" goes I V IV - . It's tempting to think of the IV as I because it gets a whole measure, whereas the other two are a split, but if you think of it as tension and release, I can't imagine hearing it any other way.

 

OTOH, "Seven Bridges Road" is clearly VII, IV, I .

[TIMKEYS]

. . . and "Sweet Home" goes I V IV - . It's tempting to think of the IV as I because it gets a whole measure, whereas the other two are a split, but if you think of it as tension and release, I can't imagine hearing it any other way.

 

OTOH, "Seven Bridges Road" is clearly VII, IV, I .

[TIMKEYS]

where the debate gets going good on sweet home is when you start looking at the guitar solo. its a simple song till you really start nit picking the real find details then the debate can begin.

[Kramerguy]

I developed a system I call "musician shorthand" where I can cram an entire song in a one-sentence line next to the song title on the set list. It's painful if you don't remember how the song goes, but it goes something like this: (each "x1" is a measure, A4x2 means strike the A chord 8 times. Also note my song is made up right here, right now, so it probably doesn't even make sense if you tried to play it!)

 

"my song" I-A2D2(x4) V-A4(x2) PC-(D2) CH-A2D2C4(x2) V(x2) CH(x2) BR-A8(x2) CH(x2) O-D(x2)

 

I = Intro

V = Verse

PC = Pre Chorus

C = Chorus

BR = Bridge

O = Outro

 

I've done entire gigs only knowing songs from hearing them on the radio by using my own charts. Sometimes I have to learn a difficult solo, but that's on me to get it right.

[wesg]

I wonder if the Lynyrd Skynyrd guys know what key SHA is in? ... I think if it as a I VII IV dealy now, I used to think of it is a V IV I. Things just seem to go better this way. I dunno why.

 

Also, I have noticed that the last chord is more likely to be the "key" chord than the first. Except when it isn't. Like SHA.

[pinkfloydcramer61]

This discussion illustrates why the Nashville number system works so well. No-one who uses it is going to look at a 2-7 and confuse the "2" with the song key, even if it's the first chord of the song. It (NNS) requires you to have a basic grasp of music theory.

 

On a side note, I would bet that not too many of us here do fill-in gigs where the band hands you a chart of any kind to go by. I myself don't much anymore.

[Vito Corleone]

 

I've got lots of proclivities in this regard myself - for example, I never play Db, Gb chords - in my mind they're always C# and F# chords. Conversely, I never play D#, G# or A# chords - in my mind they're always Eb, Ab and Bb chords. Regardless of the actual key. When jotting down chords - I'm a liberal user of the slash chord construct - especially when the "over X" note is the lowest note in the voicing I want to use. For example - I'll jot down AbMaj7 / Bb before I'd ever write BbMaj9. I realize that there's a more theoretically correct way of visualizing this stuff - but screw that - right, wrong or indifferent - my way is what comes natural to me.

 

I'm the same way. Years of playing pop music has resulted in certain chords being much more common that others. I know it's totally "wrong" to put F# and Bb in the same song, but if doing so means my brain will have a few milliseconds more to focus on the groove and the performance rather than understanding which position to put my fingers in on the keyboard, then that's the best way to go.

 

I went through a period where I would write all my chord charts out "correctly" in an attempt to try and train my brain to do things that way, but I soon realized I was defeating the larger purpose if by doing so I was hindering my ability to play the song as well as I possible could. So yeah, I use my own system of slash-chords as well. I'll usually write out Gm/E instead of Em7b5. Because my brain will understand it easier and my fingers will go to the correct voicing quicker. When I sight-read my charts, I want to just be able to play them without thinking about them as much as possible.

[Vito Corleone]

 

This ... definitely this! Especially so since even folks who are very knowledgeable in theory regularly differ on what's the most right way to express a given passage. I tend to take the "no desire to discuss or argue" philosophy even farther when it comes to resolving differences in what chords band mates came up with when learning songs by ear. I virtually always go with whatever whoever seems to feel the strongest about it says the chord is. It just isn't worth spending any time on at all - even if I'm 100% certain that the chord they're playing isn't the "right" one. As long as we're all playing the same chord - "right" or "wrong" just doesn't matter all that much. It's certainly not worth spending time on.

 

In this day and age, any group of players assembled for a "band" are almost certainly going to have a very diverse history of experiences and levels of formal education. And getting along with people is as important to the success of any band or gig--be it a sit-in gig or a full-time band---as is being able to know and play your instrument that trying to one-up anyone about knowledge of theory or any such stuff is not only not important, but completely counter-productive.

 

It matters not as much how a player gets "there" as it matters that he simply does.

 

But keeping people all on the same page can be a challenge sometimes to. There have been times when I've told the bass player to go to the V only to find he plays the wrong note because he and I have a different understanding of what the I is on that particular song. But that's just part of the learning process of any song usually as well.