OT:Are you a Christian?

[Lucid Vision]

I referred to "intelligent design" as a cliche as it is the current (read, new and improved) politically correct way to refer to the belief that a higher power instituted creation. In no way does "intelligent design" and it's definition refer to a marriage of science and religion. So basically it addresses what those that believe in a higher power think about creationism. Kinda like the antithesis to the Big Bang belief.

Keef

[superthumb]

I can't believe in a god that would rather have horrible people up in heaven with him, than good people just because they believed in him and said sorry for all the awful things they did before they got there....in fact if that is true then I'm glad i'm not going.

 

 

Who are these horrible people, because I don't personally know any Christians that are horrible people. Oh, I'm sure they exist, but whether or not they are actually Christians or just claim to be Christians for some sort of gain isn't for me to decide.

 

Ok, here's my soapbox: Speaking as a minister, it isn't a belief in Jesus or God that gets you into heaven. The surveys have shown that something like 95 percent of Americans believe Jesus existed, and nearly as many believe that there is a God. (Someone here said "I believe Jesus was real, just no that he needs to be worshipped"). If you want to get really deep, having faith won't even get you into heaven. Faith and a paper sack will buy you a paper sack. A person is saved by grace through faith. Being a good person is great, keep that up, but Paul tells us that salvation is not by works...so that no one can boast. Salvation is a free gift, available to everyone.

 

All this talk about evolutions vs creation, science vs religion, is pointless. Christians have missed the mark here. Its also not a matter of going to church, or being a good person. Its about this: Is there a God? Do I want a relationship with my maker? What is keeping me from that relationship? How can that change? Thats it. Thats all.

 

And man, if you're glad you're not going to Heaven because you'd have to spend all eternity with me and members of my congregation, then I'm sorry. I won't try to scare you with stories of fire and brimstone, you've already heard that. I'll only ask you this: If you have even a hint of suspicion that there is an afterlife, setting aside whether or not you think God's standard is fair, would you rather that your family spend it in paradise, or the other place?

 

And if I hear one more person say they are tolerant of other people's beliefs, I'll scream. I had to dig through 8 pages of of Christian bashing and Atheist bashing to get to the end of this thread yesterday. The problem isn't that Christians are intolerant, its that PEOPLE are intolerant. And Christians are just people too.

 

Soapbox off.

[TheHarakiriEnd]

I referred to "intelligent design" as a cliche as it is the current (read, new and improved) politically correct way to refer to the belief that a higher power instituted creation. In no way does "intelligent design" and it's definition refer to a marriage of science and religion. So basically it addresses what those that believe in a higher power think about creationism. Kinda like the antithesis to the Big Bang belief. Keef

 

 

I think I misunderstood you. I was refering to what I had written in my post.

[Armitage]

You either believe God guided the hand of man when he wrote the Bible, all of it, every detail, or it might as well all be poop.

To me, it's all poop.

Remember, believing in the Bible doesn't mean you trust and belive in God, it means you trust and belive in the guys who 'claim' he had some say in writing it.

Neither God or Jesus showed up after the fact taking credit for the Bible.

[Devi Ever]

[comfortablynumb]

Ok, here's my soapbox: Soapbox off.

I agree with everything you've posted so far.

As far as money goes:

"Religion" may ride on money, Christianity doesn't. And I don't believe the two (religion and Christianity) have anything to do with each other.

Right now my church is in the worst financial state it's ever been in in 20 something years. I know for a fact that my pastor hasn't gotten a paycheck in 8 weeks or so. Yeah, our church has a couple nice commodities, but nothing compared to some of the other churches in our town. We're struggling to pay our $1500 electric bill every month.. not to mention the other bills and the other salaries of the people that work for the church (which are not high enough to completely support any of those people). And I can tell anyone that if our church got reduced to nothing but a sermon in the woods somewhere with no lights, no music, no anything, a majority of our people would still attend every service because they have a relationship with God and that's what we're about.

Which brings me to the other point I wanted to bring up. I believe Hell is a secondary thing in the whole Christianity thing. Yes, I believe it's real and that non-believers are going there.. but hellfire and brimstone isn't what this is all about. If everyone got saved just because it would save them from Hell, it probably wouldn't work. I mean, "once saved, always saved" doesn't fly with me at all. It's about the relationship with Jesus. The desire to be closer to Him. I couldn't imagine not living this Christian life. I came close before.. and it sucked.

If I went to church and believed out of obligation, I'd be a miserable person. But, I have a relationship with God. And I strive to not hurt Him by my actions (read: sins) and my life is better for it. I have my downfalls and faults, but when I look at my life I see that I have it great. I have a loving family, the best friends I could ask for. Money is tight but I'm not starving to death or living in a box. I see the same things in people I know that are living right. Then I see others that aren't living right.. People that are/were strong Christians, yet other areas of their lives are pushing him away. They aren't happy, they can't seem to cope with their problems, their families are falling apart. The only time things are good is when they are steady in church and striving to be closer to God.

Now, I know there are millions of people out there living their lives and they are happy, without God. That's fine, and I'm happy for you. But I'm curious how many of these people ever truly experienced God. I'm not talking about being raised in a stuffy church as a child because your parents said it was the good "Christian" thing to do - than turning away because you saw through the whole mess and found your own way. I mean a true, free thinking, relationship with Him. Because I haven't seen too many people turn away from God after something like that, and still be truly happy.

The point of all this is just for anyone to see what my faith is all about. I was raised in a Christian home and have had my own experiences as well as seeing a multitude of supernatural things that support my God. Like I said before, I can't imagine not living this life. If I didn't I would be in a lot worse shape than I'm in now.

As for the original question: Yes, with everything in my being. I belong to Him.

[kismet78]

People still believe in free will? Wow.

Anyway, religious belief has no ground to stand on other than socio-economic benefit, nor have any advances in it's understanding been made since, well, ever. Believing that there are some things that can't be understood seems to me to be an even sillier proposition. Given time, effort and interest, any equation can be figured. Does this mean that I know for sure that there is no invisible force which guides our existance? No, not for sure. But I sure as hell can look at the available data and make a logical conclusion. When presented with new data, I reserve teh right to revise my conclusion, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Kittie Rose]

Stupid sexy Flanders.

[Liberty Belle]

not this thread again!

worst thread ever!

 

[kismet78]

I brought it back from the dead in honour of Halloween!!!

[hangwire]

I'm a Christian, proud of it, and I go to church regularly. I'm not the kind of person to pound my beliefs on anyone else. That choice is yours to make. I believe on several occasions I have been shown that there is higher power watching over me. I'm not going to go into my testimony over it, but hope you will at least respect my faith.

Now if only 95% of Christians were like you, it wouldn't really matter what religion anyone believed in!

[StompboxMan]

( STOMPBOX MAN, i'm lookin at you!!! )!

I can't see you. All I see are words.

[MrHuge]

Not for the faint of faith, heart, or while at work.... http://blog.wired.com/tableofmalcontents/images/2007/05/14/jesus_supper_zombie.jpg

 

 

 

ditto...

http://www.jscotthardman.com/images/lastsupper/finalsupper_big.jpg

 

 

...

[placebo62]

Which brings me to the other point I wanted to bring up. I believe Hell is a secondary thing in the whole Christianity thing. Yes, I believe it's real and that non-believers are going there..

 

 

See this is what I dont get. Is that to say that all the billions of people in the world that dont believe in God, the Hindus, Buddhists (there are over 6 billion Hindus alone at the moment) - is it to say, that depsite the fact they they could be the kindest most generous person in the world, yet they get sent to Hell because they didnt grow up in a Christian country?

 

well, that just seems...very...un-Christian.

[L_Z_nut]

I've spent more than half my life in a Roman Catholic school... so you can pretty much guess that I'm not religious in any way.

I have no problems anyones faith or religion... you can believe what you want, and I wouldn't discriminate against you for it. I do have a problem with these people who try and "save" you, and force you to believe the same thing they do. I have no patience for these types of people. On several occasions I've gotten into debates with these bible totters (mostly because they just wouldn't let it go that I don't HAVE to believe) and have had them tell me "Well, you do realize you're going to hell if you don't accept God right?" Fear! The cornerstone to most religions, and the reason why most have as many followers as they do... and the reason why I don't follow man made religions.

I actually had to remove my sig on a different forum (it was the same that I have here) because someone kept on bitching that it was offensive and wouldn't let it go. Even after the admin told him it wasn't against the rules. The admin broke down and told me to remove it because this guy just wouldn't let up, and was being very childish. You have to be one seriously disturbed person to get offended by someone else's religion and beliefs enough to force censorship on another persons sig.

Believe what you want, I won't judge... and if there is a God, neither will him/her/it/they/whatever.

[Musickbox]

 

See this is what I dont get. Is that to say that all the billions of people in the world that dont believe in God, the Hindus, Buddhists (there are over 6 billion Hindus alone at the moment) - is it to say, that depsite the fact they they could be the kindest most generous person in the world, yet they get sent to Hell because they didnt grow up in a Christian country? well, that just seems...very...un-Christian.

 

 

 

Is it something you say in casual conversation? No. Is something that is taught in the Bible? Yea, it is. If you talked to an orthodox Jew he would tell you same about God and the Torah. If you talked to a Muslim he would say the same about Allah and the Qu'ran. I do agree about the fact that there is this phenomenon of "American" Christianity and if your not with us you'lldie like the rest of the world, that to me is very UN-Christian. It's sad because there are Christian missionaries that are sent to the US. There are Christians outside the US that prays for our country. We as Christians and Americans think we got it figured out and now we need to show the world our splender. But the rest of the world is like "Your kidding, right?"

 

I am Christian, like I posted in a prior post. Sorry to preachy, but there's some facts that Christians get mixed up or get caught up in. My faith in Jesus is not a perfect faith. But I ask you, do we live in a perfect world with perfect answers? We still argue about some of the most basic simplicities of life. What I believe is true in my heart. If it isn't for you, then I can't change you and it's not my place to. If you want to discuss this further on another setting I would be glad to converse. I don't think a guitar forum is that place.

[orourke]

No. Religion is silly.

 

 

What they said.

[L_Z_nut]

Great name for a Christian rock band:

 

Spare Ribs of Adam.

[placebo62]

Is it something you say in casual conversation? No. Is something that is taught in the Bible? Yea, it is. If you talked to an orthodox Jew he would tell you same about God and the Torah. If you talked to a Muslim he would say the same about Allah and the Qu'ran. I do agree about the fact that there is this phenomenon of "American" Christianity and if your not with us you'lldie like the rest of the world, that to me is very UN-Christian. It's sad because there are Christian missionaries that are sent to the US. There are Christians outside the US that prays for our country. We as Christians and Americans think we got it figured out and now we need to show the world our splender. But the rest of the world is like "Your kidding, right?" I am Christian, like I posted in a prior post. Sorry to preachy, but there's some facts that Christians get mixed up or get caught up in. My faith in Jesus is not a perfect faith. But I ask you, do we live in a perfect world with perfect answers? We still argue about some of the most basic simplicities of life. What I believe is true in my heart. If it isn't for you, then I can't change you and it's not my place to. If you want to discuss this further on another setting I would be glad to converse. I don't think a guitar forum is that place.

I dunno dude, I think discussing religion is as valid as any other 'Off Topic' discussion we have here.

I was raised a Christian, but there were just too many things that didnt sit right for me. I have no problem with Christians or any other religous folks. You can believe in whatever you want to (unless you are a Scientologist, thats just plain woop woop woop! )

But per my post above, I just dont understand the one God thing - the non-believers get sent to hell. I mean, if you were born in Burma, chances are you aint going to be a Christian, so does that by default mean you will burn in Hell? And of course this notion applies to other religions as well.

Its why I dont subscribe to any of them. I dont need that to be a good person. And if anyone thinks I'm going to burn in hell because I dont believe in your God, then shame on you.

Love Thy Neighbour.

[Musickbox]

 

But per my post above, I just dont understand the one God thing - the non-believers get sent to hell. I mean, if you were born in Burma, chances are you aint going to be a Christian, so does that by default mean you will burn in Hell? And of course this notion applies to other religions as well. Its why I dont subscribe to any of them. I dont need that to be a good person. And if anyone thinks I'm going to burn in hell because I dont believe in your God, then shame on you. Love Thy Neighbour.

 

 

 

Well on a purely theological level, you got things kind of mixed up. Love your neighbor is an earthly commandment. Love is something we need to define. Look at it from this perspective. If you knew something bad was going to happen to someone you care about, wouldn't you want to tell him, even it was uncomfortable to say or may even hurt their feelings? Well, Jesus commands his disciples to share his story, and your his story is not, "accept or your going to hell", but a good news that there is God who care about humanity and sent his Son (Jesus) to die for them. I hope you understand the intention of some Christians is to help you, even though it's not always said or done correctly. Love is way of life and how you do things. How many times as children did our parents discipline us and we took it as they don't love us. Eventually we grew up and understood they loved us and were just trying to take care of us. That to me is a basic answer.

 

Now the issue of God allowing someone who never heard of Christ, God, or anything. Romans 1:20 says "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." That's really the closest answer your going to get. It implies various ideas that are both troubling and humanly "unfair". 1. Let God be God. God is superior to us and basically can do whatever he wants. It is only his mercy and grace that gives us life. God is what sets fair and unfair. What we think may be unfair may be fair to God. If you don't accept that there is a Human separation with God than this will hard to swallow. 2. Ignorance is not clear in this text. Ignorance might mean not knowing all the information or just denying the basic information. For example, Jews, Muslims,and Christians believe in God. There tons of doctrine and theology that not everyone will ever know. Does that mean they go to hell? I hope not. So is responsibility of human being in some obscure part of the world only to acknowledge God's existence and significance? If so, then ignorance is bless! 3. Which leads me to believe it is the responsibility of the person who holds these beliefs is to share and give the opportunity for those to accept or reject God. Those people that did not do anything to help those in ignorance will be held responsible for their souls, according to the Bible.

 

I can't say who and who is not going to hell, only God can. I believe even people who do believe in God and are Christians will go to hell. My struggle lies in the inhumane God, but God is not human. You cannot put human laws or philosophy on God. The biggest issue is holding God responsible for our human understanding. I hope my answers help you understand my beliefs a little better. I am still looking for answers. I learned a long time ago, life doesn't give or owe you any closure.

 

(Excuse the typos)

[melx]

I mean, if you were born in Burma, chances are you aint going to be a Christian, so does that by default mean you will burn in Hell? And of course this notion applies to other religions as well.

 

 

 

....and don't forget all the people who were born before Jesus Christ, they were all {censored}ed by default.

[Rock_and_roll]

there are over 6 billion Hindus alone at the moment

Hold on...

[robertdinero]

Several "Jesus characters" have existed thousands of years before the one from Nazareth; virgin births also. Look it up, just don`t look for videos on youtube or any other webpage, do the research on your own and the patterns will emerge again and again.

In my opinion, it`s much more intelligent and beneficial to understand the original purpose of the allegories-wich are inspired from nature and universal intelligence- than to think that there were really a man and a woman, and were doomed beceause of the temptation of the devil materialized in the form of a snake. These stories represent other entitities and concepts, an ULTERIOR meaning; conceiving them in an obvious manner makes them odd fairy tales.

P.S. Hell and Heaven are not the creation of a grandiose God.

[p4vl]

I find Christian history and art interesting, but the bible is a human book written by men. Some of the most bitter, truly poisonous people I have ever known are/were devout christians; but then so are the wisest and kindest people I have ever known.

Whatever you believe, keep it out of government and education.

[Jacek]

Let's get it back to guitars, there's too much religion in this world anyway.

 

And most of it just causes people to hate other people just because they go somewhere else to worship.