First Presidential Debate

[Crxsh]

yeah me too. i want to hear what mccain wants to do here. i feel like obama is gonna beat him out in my eyes when it comes to stateside stuff.

 

 

I agree with this. And to be honest, the stateside stuff is far more important to me right now. I realize that we're in a war and all, and it's not that foreign policy isn't an important aspect to discuss, but with the current disarray of our economy .... that's far more interesting to me at this point.

 

That said, this is just me. There are likely a great deal of people who will vote for McCain solely because of his foreign policy and international experience.

[PeelingPaint98]

WTF dude? Quit w/ the bull{censored}.

No, see the thing is both of you should vote for mccain, you've both proven that you've eaten up the american propaganda enough that you have a paper thin under standing of how the world works. I don't see any point in putting in effort to convince you otherwise. Your ideas and considerations are so fundamentaly flawed that I just wouldn't know what it would take to open your eyes. So instead I recommend you vote the way you appear to lean and harken the apocalypse that much faster . . .

[echodeluxe]

I agree with this. And to be honest, the stateside stuff is far more important to me right now. I realize that we're in a war and all, and it's not that foreign policy isn't an important aspect to discuss, but with the current disarray of our economy .... that's far more interesting to me at this point. That said, this is just me. There are likely a great deal of people who will vote for McCain solely because of his foreign policy and international experience.

 

 

true, but im also scared to death about whats going on overseas. i just worry that its gonna get worse. i dont feel safe.

[echodeluxe]

No, see the thing is both of you should vote for mccain, you've both proven that you've eaten up the american propaganda enough that you have a paper thin under standing of how the world works. I don't see any point in putting in effort to convince you otherwise. Your ideas and considerations are so fundamentaly flawed that I just wouldn't know what it would take to open your eyes. So instead I recommend you vote the way you appear to lean and harken the apocalypse that much faster . . .

okay, other than take your route and insult you, im going to ask that you go through my post and point out my flaws. i dont know how you can be so aware of everything, but you seem to be. so please, go ahead.

[wader2k]

this whole election is a mess.....

the candidate that steps up and takes a stand against this wallstreet bailout gets my vote....if either of them has the kahunas to go against the money men on wallstreet.....

[echodeluxe]

this whole election is a mess..... the candidate that steps up and takes a stand against this wallstreet bailout gets my vote.... if either of them has the kahunas to go against the money men on wallstreet.....

 

 

what do you propose should be done about the toppling economy?

[echodeluxe]

im also gonna say this one more time, so that everyone understands it:

 

this thread is meant for a healthy and respectful discussion of the debate and the candidates. please refrain from being a {censored}ing asshole.

 

what do i mean by asshole?

 

condescending remarks, posts that make a general statement like FAIL, or just a few words about how ignorant and dumb someone is. if you cant debate with some decorum, go back to kindergarten. im sure a time out will do you good.

 

im only asking, and i hope that there are enough adults her that will respect my request. if not, then god help us all, the candidates are the LAST thing this country needs to worry about.

 

thank you!

[Crxsh]

 

this whole election is a mess..... the candidate that steps up and takes a stand against this wallstreet bailout gets my vote.... if either of them has the kahunas to go against the money men on wallstreet.....

 

 

I think you were looking for "cajones."

[miggy01]

Yeah..... um, I'm fairly certain that my posts indicate a lean toward the Obama side. So........... I think you were looking for "c O jones."

[wader2k]

what do you propose should be done about the toppling economy?

 

 

I don't have all the answers....BUT I do know that giving 700 Billion dollars to be doled out by the folks that allowed it to happen in the first place with no oversight or accountability is a mistake.

 

Take a look at what Paulson wrote into this bailout plan....

 

 

[Crxsh]

for me.....

[wader2k]

Yeah..... um, I'm fairly certain that my posts indicate a lean toward the Obama side. So........... I think you were looking for "cajones."

yup , you are prob correct!

[The Great Waldo Pepper]

 

and if georgia joins NATO, we have to back them up. we have to. and russia is gonna be pissed. what is obama gonna do about that? i dont feel confident about his ability to deal with that, or any foreign policy stuff. the reason im "on the fence" is because both of the candidates scare me, and they both make me unhappy. there are things they both say that make me cringe but, who knows what will happen. im hoping that maybe obama is just a slick talker and he will get into office and get down to business.

 

 

Do some homework on Zbigniew Brzezinski, the guy who (was/is?) advising Obama's foreign policy. Brzezinski's big thing is the proxy war WITH Russia. I suspect Obama has people around him that can deal with it. Sadly this is also the evidence I have that in regard to foreign policy there is not a substantial difference between the two major parties.

[SUPER VELCROBOY]

Things I want to know: -How Obama intends to address healthcare. If he wants a government controlled healthcare system ... I'm not voting for him.

The difference is huge. Obama is for more government control while McCain is more for private control.

Obama wants to establish something called the national insurance exchange, and to my rudimentary understanding basically is something like semi-universal plan that offers insurance to people who are not part of an employer plan. It is supposedly not free as i understand it, so really it's not universal health, but a more affordable plan. Obama wants to expand federal programs like Medicaid and S-chip for kids and people who have little to no income. He would also give tax credits to families so that they can better afford insurance. To pay for these programs, obama proposes to cut "wasteful spending" and tax the rich, those who make more than 350k a year.

Problem with the obama plan is that taxing the rich is unlikely to be enough to fund all his programs. Federal programs have many problems, namely they are very expensive, and because so many people are involved, the only way to get everybody covered is by rationing. Also, reimbursement for physicians who treat medicaid patients sucks. What this ultimately means is that patient care can be compromised. i.e. doctors have less incentive to treat you when no one cares to pay them. There is truth in this. Anyone who goes through a federal system and trying to get treatment knows that there are a lot of red tape, relatively speaking compared to a private plan.

The McCain plan is completely different. He favors market-driven strategies and free competition to drive down cost. His plan is basically like Obama's in all principles like affordability, quality, efficiency, and choice of doctors except he doesn't want government expansion to get better health coverage. Basically his main interest is better health maintenance, screening, prevention, and early intervention. To help people get insurance, McCain proposes to give everyone a $2500 refundable tax credit or $5000 to their families by ending the exemption from federal income tax for employer-sponsored insurance. He also favors state regulation of health systems over a national one.

I have trouble understanding the McCain plan, but it sounds like he's going to do nothing (hahaha ).

My opinion is that we already have a universal health plan, whether you like it or not. In california, no one can be turned away from the hospital. You can be an illegal immigrant, an alien, a russian, a drug abuser, a rapist... it doesn't matter, you will get treatment no matter what. And that's where it is in california. Guess who's going to pay for all this? Yup, it is already happening. I would rather have a universal health plan for everyone, rich or poor, sick or not and would pay more taxes to have it. There are 30 millions americans who are uninsured, which is ridiculous. When you change jobs, you have to go through COBRA or else you are uninsured. Companies will start to deny you for pre-existing conditions or charge you up the ass (sorry no more pedals) because you smoke. I would rather our next president be Hillary, who i think is best equipped to get this done, but unfortunately this country isn't ready for a woman at the helm who is more experience and intelligent than Obama in every single way. Alas, too bad, Now it's between Obama and McCain.

[Crxsh]

^^^ Thanks for the input SVB.

 

I have a great deal of libertarian notions and so anything run, managed, and controlled by the government really scares me off. In fact, I talked to a doctor a few months back -- asked him how he felt about national healtcare -- and he identified many of the same problems you did. He said in many ways, Canada is practically legally euthanizing its elderly because of all the red tape .... and how do you expect healthcare quality to increase (or at least remain half-decent) when there's so little incentive for doctors? Man.... if a democrat can't see all the failed/failing social programs in this country, I'm really not sure I trust him.

 

That said .... that's the only thing I've got on him thus far. I like his education push and generally agree with what I know of his foreign policy.... but that healthcare issue makes it really difficult.

[echodeluxe]

 

Do some homework on Zbigniew Brzezinski, the guy who (was/is?) advising Obama's foreign policy. Brzezinski's big thing is the proxy war WITH Russia. I suspect Obama has people around him that can deal with it. Sadly this is also the evidence I have that in regard to foreign policy there is not a substantial difference between the two major parties.

 

 

ill do that. you make some interesting points and there is still a crapload i need to learn, but im kinda going with my first instinct based on what i do know.

[Brian Marshall]

 

Things I want to know: -How Obama intends to address healthcare. If he wants a government controlled healthcare system ... I'm not voting for him. -How McCain intends to "freeze spending." -Why McCain sounded so happy when talking about the state of things in Iraq. -Why McCain's jaw doesn't move when he talks. -How Obama will deal with (or combat) McCain's "experience" factor. -How Obama intends to pull out of Iraq. Is this a strategic removal? Or just an end date when we exit no matter what? -How Obama proposes to address business tax cuts ... and conversely, how McCain will deal with cuts for "Main Street."

 

 

otehr than mccain's emotional state and jaw issues, all of this can be found pretty easily on the interwebs

 

the answer to mccain "feezing spending" in short is that he doesn't... unless he's changed a lot of things in the last few days.

[echodeluxe]

his jaw is made of shrapnel.

[Brian Marshall]

nader's the man

 

 

he's a nice protest vote, but he is a wacko and a hypocrite.

[driverhasabomb]

so, you think hes ahmadinejad is just blowing smoke? i know he believes that iran is key in a prophecy about wiping out the jews, and thats why he wants israel gone. there is supposedly some muslim god that comes down from heaven and leads the muslims to victory, but only after they wipe out jews.

 

 

I doubt he sincerely believes that any more than Bush seems to believe it's our divine mission to protect Israel... oh wait. Muslim's observe the same god as christians and jews, btw. There isn't "some muslim god".

 

One thing I will say in favor of McCain is he really hasn't played up to the extreme christian right like Bush did. I found that {censored} extremely disturbing. It's almost hilarious how forced it is when McCain does talk about god and religion. I can almost hear him saying "{censored}, why'd they write this stuff into my speech again?".

 

I think part of the plan with bringing Palin on board was to appeal to very very conservative religious people but so far I haven't heard her really take command of that platform.

[Brian Marshall]

honestly, when it comes to the foreign policy, im on board with mccain. im not happy with either of them. mccain was right about the pakistan thing. we may need to step up and go get bin laden and flush out the al qaeda, and we may need to do that without pakistans help if they refuse to. HOWEVER, you dont say it out loud. you dont. they are our allies. you support your allies in public, and you criticize in private.

 

oh yeah... which party has been framing foreign policy in terms of good and evil. That is about the most retarded thing you can do, because it plays right in to oppressive regimes hands.

 

Not to mention that if you look at it in broad terms Mccain's foreign policy ideals are the same as what got us in all of this mess in the first place. They fail to realize that for every action there is a reaction.

 

now, if we run into pakistan guns blazing, thats scary. why? cuz pakistan will nuke india. then india will retaliate. russia and china are right next door. {censored} man. think about it. russia is gonna back up india, pakistan is OUR ally. so, if russia has india's back, who are they gonna lob missiles at?

 

you obviously are paying more attention to sound bites than what obama actually originally said

 

this is where i think mccain's foreign policy wins, and where experience is key. from the way obama talks, i feel like he thinks he knows whats best and isnt gonna take criticism or help. hes just gonna do what he wants.

 

dick cheney and don rumsfeld had lots of experience... just sayin'... I dont know where you are getting that from obama... I don't get that feeling at all.

 

and on ahmedinejad, hes right too, in my opinion. you cant sit across from him, listen to the guy spew all this crap about how hes gonna wipe this "stinking corpse" of a nation off the map and tell him "nope, sorry cant do that." we gotta back israel up, no bones about it.

 

why the hell do we have to back up israel... shouldn't we qualify that statement with something??? It's not the 1950's anymore.

 

and if georgia joins NATO, we have to back them up. we have to. and russia is gonna be pissed. what is obama gonna do about that? i dont feel confident about his ability to deal with that, or any foreign policy stuff.

 

so much for you being "on the fence"

 

the reason im "on the fence" is because both of the candidates scare me, and they both make me unhappy. there are things they both say that make me cringe but, who knows what will happen. im hoping that maybe obama is just a slick talker and he will get into office and get down to business.

 

 

The truth is that if we still want to be around as a country in 20 years and still have a respected say in the world, we have to reel in the 'john wayne' foreign policy that we've had under bush, and would likely continue under mccain.

[SUPER VELCROBOY]

 

^^^ Thanks for the input SVB. I have a great deal of libertarian notions and so anything run, managed, and controlled by the government really scares me off. In fact, I talked to a doctor a few months back -- asked him how he felt about national healtcare -- and he identified many of the same problems you did. He said in many ways, Canada is practically legally euthanizing its elderly because of all the red tape .... and how do you expect healthcare quality to increase (or at least remain half-decent) when there's so little incentive for doctors? Man.... if a democrat can't see all the failed/failing social programs in this country, I'm really not sure I trust him. That said .... that's the only thing I've got on him thus far. I like his education push and generally agree with what I know of his foreign policy.... but that healthcare issue makes it really difficult.

 

 

Yup, you really got to point. At the end of the day, the differences between a democratic president and a republican president are philosophical and the same as they have been for the last 30 years.

 

A democrat favors the Robin Hood model (steal from the rich to feed the poor). The democrat will increase government spending to support social programs like welfare, medicare, s-chip, medicaid, veteran support along with schools and education. To get all this funded, someone is going to pay more taxes. You will pay taxes for things you may not ever care for. On foreign policy, he will shy away from defense spending and will likely hope for a peaceful settlement in conflict.

 

A republican president favors the Reaganomics approach, i.e. cut all taxes to drive the economy (until we get into trouble, recall "read my lips"). A republican will favor a free market approach with little government as possible. It's more of a "let the people fend for themselves." While this isn't a bad idea per se, the people who can't fend for themselves get punished pretty severely in all ways (e.g. minorities, elderly, handicaps). On the foreign policy front, a republican will also favor the "peace through strength" principle. All of this probably stemmed from history, i.e. ww2, where inaction and appeasement would likely have allowed Germany and Japan to reign. So you probably will get a lot of defense spending, and pre-emptive striking the enemy (e.g. Reagan+ Granada, Bush+Panama, Bush+Iraq+afgan) and also on some ridiculous stuff that are deterring but unproven like SDI star wars and missile shields. We end up in debt anyways because of all the defense spendings.

[The Great Waldo Pepper]

what do you propose should be done about the toppling economy?

 

 

Well there are a lot of ideas we've mentioned in another thread but you discarded 'em as socialism and communism. Fact is the crisis we are currently in comes as a result of untethered capitalism. So a "capitalist" solution is insanity = doing the same thing expecting a different result.

[The Great Waldo Pepper]

his jaw is made of shrapnel.

 

 

From one of the planes he crashed.

[Brian Marshall]

this whole election is a mess..... the candidate that steps up and takes a stand against this wallstreet bailout gets my vote.... if either of them has the kahunas to go against the money men on wallstreet.....

 

 

Ahhhh, well... the problem is that if you want to punish wall street, you will end up harming everyone else far more. The fat cats on wall street and sinking ship CEO's already got their paycheck. What happens when the stock market crashes 25 to 50%, and the credit market tightens even more than it already has, and all of a sudden unemployment soars to double digits....The effects would likely be cyclical (meaning the initial effects would propagate even worse effects later, and would effect the economy of the entire world) BUT Yeah, we sure showed those wall street guys.

 

The problem stems from deregulation and lack of oversight. When the fincancial sector was deregulated in the late 90's it put a dynamic in place where banks were in far greater competition... but it wasn't the good kind of competition you hear about in free market utopian propaganda videos from the 50's. It was a war of attrition to see who the last few banks were.

 

Basically the banks would do anything they could to pad their earnings to raise their stock price to leverage buyouts of other banks. Doing things that were absolutely stupid, full well knowing that it could get them in hot water, but they all knew once the market was consolidated in to just a few ultra massive banks they could hold the economy hostage.... and that's where we are now.

 

Basically it comes to this... They played a game called HEADS WE WIN, TAILS YOU LOSE.

 

I understand you are pissed, and you SHOULD be. Phil Graham wrote the bill that basically got us in this mess, and he is McCain's top economic adviser.

 

I don't know what the bailout will end up looking like in the end... I just want whatever legislation that is passed to bring back some meaningful regulation and oversight.