Members mhuxtable Posted January 4, 2012 Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 i'm surprised someone hasn't sued paypal over something like this....even if it is in their terms of service, i'd imagine they'd have a decent case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members d4rk0 Posted January 4, 2012 Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 Lets just kill ourselves and get it over with. Im tired of dying inside a littlebit everytime I read something like this.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dr.Picklebottom Posted January 4, 2012 Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 man, if i were a buyer and was convinced i was sold an expensive fake nothing would make me happier than being told ill get my money back- but only after i destroy it, take a picture, and email it to the seller. whats next- insist i have some drinks and get a blowjob first? sucks for the seller, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Aristotle Posted January 4, 2012 Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 This only strengthens my resolve to cancel my paypal account after I finish downsizing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryan. Posted January 4, 2012 Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 i thought i read papal lunacy. thought it was about the pope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoboPimp Posted January 4, 2012 Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members evets618 Posted January 4, 2012 Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 From Paypal's site:"Once a Dispute has been escalated to a Claim, PayPal will make a final decision in favor of the buyer or the seller. You may be asked to provide receipts, third party evaluations, police reports, or any other information or documents reasonably required by PayPal to investigate the Claim. PayPal retains full discretion to make a final decision in favor of the buyer or the seller based on any criteria PayPal deems appropriate. In the event that PayPal makes a final decision in favor of the buyer or seller, each party must comply with PayPal's decision. PayPal will generally require the buyer to ship an item that the buyer claims is Significantly Not as Described back to the seller (at the buyer's expense), and PayPal will generally require a seller to accept the item back and refund the buyer the full purchase price plus original shipping costs. If a seller refuses to accept the item, PayPal may award the Claim in favour of the buyer, provided the buyer has provided satisfactory evidence to PayPal that the item was sent to the seller. In the event a seller loses a Claim, the seller will not receive a refund on his or her PayPal or eBay fees associated with the transaction. If you lose a Significantly Not as Described Claim because the item you sold is counterfeit, you will be required to provide a full refund to the buyer and you will not receive the item back (it may be destroyed)."I hardly think this was an off-the-cuff, knee-jerk decision.In any case, it's doubtful we have all the facts.Of course, I read it on the interwebs, so it must be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Reaganomics! Posted January 4, 2012 Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 http://www.regretsy.com/2011/12/05/cats-1-kids-0/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NITEFLY182 Posted January 4, 2012 Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 I can see why in some cases, like those cheap Chinese knock offs of Les Pauls why they want the object destroyed, so they don't keep getting burned over and over. But this does seem to make little sense in this situation.Now, not defending paypal at all, but I do question the seller claiming that there are no knock offs in the violin world. I could be wrong, but I don't believe it. They are counterfits of everything if you look hard enough.And lastly, for a violin of such stature, as she claims, $2,500 isn't a lot in the violin world at all, this is a pretty minimal investment when it comes to "antique" violins. Although I suppose just because it's an antique, doesn't mean it's a great instrument. One of the local colleges in town has a good music program, there are a few students that violins in the $200k range, heavily insured too.Moral of the story I guess, is not to do business with paypal with higher end instruments of this nature. If I were her, I would take the buyer to small claims court. Maybe take Paypal to small claims court too.Interesting story of a former lawyer doing exactly this with Honda Motor company, about the fraudulent mileage she was getting with her Civic hybrid - she may just win, and open the door to a whole new level of do it yourself litigation:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/03/small-claims-suit-honda-hybrid_n_1180581.html Its not exactly a windfall settlement for HCH owners. I have one of the cars in question and got the notice about this lawsuit in the mail the other day. If Honda settles, I would get a check for $100. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IRG Posted January 4, 2012 Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 Its not exactly a windfall settlement for HCH owners. I have one of the cars in question and got the notice about this lawsuit in the mail the other day. If Honda settles, I would get a check for $100. Exactly - that's the point of this article, and why she's not joining the class action suit. She figures if she goes to small claims, and can prove that the mileage is indeed not what was advertised, she can win up to $10,000 in small claims, a lot more than what you will receive if you join it. Another benefit is that since she's a former lawyer, she's probably quite adept at presenting a case, and Honda will not be able to use a lawyer, they will have to use an engineer, or something similar I would presume. The only thing Honda has on their side, is that they post the mileage claim which is tested in part by the government, so we'll see how it plays out. HCH probably won't lose $2 billion though, as most people will not want to do what she's doing in small claims court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NITEFLY182 Posted January 4, 2012 Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 No, I get it and understand. None of us are experts on violin here - I did play the instrument for 16 years, but far from being an expert. And I don't agree that the buyer should have ever destroyed it - they should have contacted the seller first, told them what's up and what they would do according to Paypal, and then if Erica said return it, that's what should have happened. Just destroying it and then taking a picture of it is so wrong.However, I'm not sure I buy all of Erica's story either. Different labels on different violins, that's a tough one to swallow for me. She should have sent (or maybe she did) a certificate of authenticity with the violin. It may be a work of art in its own right, but if you're not getting something you've paid for, then that is open for an honest debate about what to do.If I buy a Les Paul, and it turns out it's a rebadged Agile, it may indeed be a very good instrument, but it isn't a Gibson, and it won't appreciate in value like a Gibson, therefore it is fraud. And if paypal has dealt with this same seller 5 times now in a row, trying to pawn off an Agile as Gibson, I'm sure they finally got fed up, made this rule that fraudulent merchandise should just be destroyed. I'm sure this is not what Erica has been doing here, but I bet there are many other unscrupulous sellers out there that do exactly this kind of thing.Still, this outcome has no winners, and I don't like paypal either. If you played violin for 16 years how are you not aware of violin labeling practices and how nearly every student violin in the world has a copy of a strad label inside it? For a long time the label was a part of the instrument you were copying just like the bridge or the neck joint. Now there are laws in various violin-building centers of the world that are supposed to prevent such labeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gunner Recall Posted January 4, 2012 Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 It is true that this has been paypal's policy for a while, but that doesn't make it any less insane. I think the point is that even in the world of "expert luthiers" there is still great debate over the authenticity of certain instruments.We're not talking a "Galvin Klein" underwear or a fake Gucci handbag that you can spot from a mile away.Counterfeit instruments can be every bit a work of art as the originals, and I'm 99% positive Paypal does not have an expert luthier on staff to investigate these claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NITEFLY182 Posted January 4, 2012 Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 Yeah, that's a dumb thing to say. Violin counterfeits are well documented. Inherited Stradivarius scam, anyone? I think what she means is that everything on the violin market is a knockoff of a Strad so its just part of the business. Its like 1000 companies all selling strats. Theyre all selling strats even if only one of them says fender. A buyer wouldn't be able to buy one and say, "this is fake because its not a fender" when the guitar in question is absolutely a real guitar that is built exactly like a strat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IRG Posted January 4, 2012 Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 Yeah, that's a dumb thing to say. Violin counterfeits are well documented. Inherited Stradivarius scam, anyone? Yep. And I think this is what gets to the heart of the matter. A good appraiser (as opposed to a craftsman) should be able to determine whether something is real or not. If the authenticity of the violin is truly in question, then that should have been in the description. I do wonder how the buyer determined whether it was real or not, or at least not as advertised. What does seem apparent from this limited exchange we can read here, is that the seller was not intending to sell something that was fraudulent, and was likely the real thing, just maybe under a different label of sorts. I don't know the violin world as I mentioned before, but this kinda feels like not all the facts are known here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IRG Posted January 4, 2012 Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 If you played violin for 16 years how are you not aware of violin labeling practices and how nearly every student violin in the world has a copy of a strad label inside it? For a long time the label was a part of the instrument you were copying just like the bridge or the neck joint. Now there are laws in various violin-building centers of the world that are supposed to prevent such labeling. Well, I started when I was 4 It didn't occur to me to ask at that time. And later on when I was still playing (and mostly hating it until I switched to the string bass) I couldn't care less what label was on the violin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IRG Posted January 4, 2012 Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 It is true that this has been paypal's policy for a while, but that doesn't make it any less insane.I think the point is that even in the world of "expert luthiers" there is still great debate over the authenticity of certain instruments.We're not talking a "Galvin Klein" underwear or a fake Gucci handbag that you can spot from a mile away.Counterfeit instruments can be every bit a work of art as the originals, and I'm 99% positive Paypal does not have an expert luthier on staff to investigate these claims. I would agree with all of this. What they should want destroyed are the fake Gucci bags etc. What they should not want destroyed are violins of this nature. I imagine though, this is a pretty small percentage of stuff that goes through paypal that are "real" copies of stuff, versus blatant forgeries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cirrus Posted January 4, 2012 Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 yeah, i'm sure that paypal adopt their policies via large scale employee voting.Exactly man, that's why my way is the only sensible way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members THAT4301 Posted January 4, 2012 Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 sounds to me like Erica should've read the fine print of the agreement--that she voluntarily agreed to when she signed up with paypal. she knew the risks. paypal was just doing what they have the right to do under the agreement. I can get you to sign over one of your testicles, it's still assault when I attempt to retrieve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RadioSilence Posted January 4, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 i thought i read papal lunacy. thought it was about the pope. that's my next thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members V Posted January 4, 2012 Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 I hope she sues paypal if t was, indeed, an authentic violin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members amp_surgeon Posted January 4, 2012 Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 I think it would take more than just the buyer's claim that the item was a counterfeit before PayPal would ask them to destroy it. I'm guessing the buyer took it to an expert who confirmed it was a counterfeit, and PayPal decided to side with the buyer's expert rather than the seller's. Perhaps the buyer's expert was credentialed, and the seller's was just the guy at the local music store who fixes broken violins. The seller also admitted that label disputes are common, so she may have known, or at least had a strong suspicion, that the violin was a fake, but felt comfortable selling it as authentic anyway because she got a vote of confidence from her "top luthier". She seemed more concerned with the fact that the violin was an antique that survived WWII then with her claim that it was authentic. She only mentioned the "top luthier" in a post script. Heck, even if it was a fake it was still probably worth what she was asking for because it was an antique, but if she represented it as authentic and it turned out to be counterfeit then PayPal did the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members THAT4301 Posted January 4, 2012 Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 I think it would take more than just the buyer's claim that the item was a counterfeit before PayPal would ask them to destroy it. I'm guessing the buyer took it to an expert who confirmed it was a counterfeit, and PayPal decided to side with the buyer's expert rather than the seller's. Perhaps the buyer's expert was credentialed, and the seller's was just the guy at the local music store who fixes broken violins. Do you do business with the same paypal I do? I can't imagine them doing anything of the sort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NITEFLY182 Posted January 4, 2012 Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 Do you do business with the same paypal I do? I can't imagine them doing anything of the sort. I'm thinking the same thing. Im pretty sure I could buy a fuzz from amp surgeon, get it, claim to paypal that he shipped a teddy bear instead, and get my money back. But I'd have to send him a picture of me raping the teddy bear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TomCray Posted January 4, 2012 Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 1) buy expensive violin 2) buy expensive violin knock off 3) tell paypal the real one is fake using the fake as proof 4) smash open fake 5) get paid, boom free expensive violin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AluminumFalcon Posted January 4, 2012 Members Share Posted January 4, 2012 1) buy expensive violin 2) buy expensive violin knock off 3) tell paypal the real one is fake using the fake as proof 4) smash open fake 5) get paid, boom free expensive violin Unfortunately, THIS. Paypal is screwing over sellers big time yet again. While I use Paypal as a buyer quite often I'd be more than a bit hesitant to sell something to an unknown and accept Paypal as a payment method. Paypal gives far too much power to the buyer and allows scams like this to happen all the time. It sucks for the seller of the Violin. In terms of violin pricing $2500 will buy you aa decent student instrument but having done my undergrad in music I know players whose parents put a second mortgage on their house to fund a violin purchase (good luck getting that money back!). Having said that, $2500 is a huge chunk of change and I don't know why the buyer would not simply ship the violin back to the seller unless A. the seller refused, or B. The buyer was a scammer and trashed a dollar store violin for the photo.Without going on a huge rant about the Honda thing I'll say I miss common sense. Honda (and all other car companies) advertise that mileage will vary. It's nothing new and there are many factors that affect it. Expecting that you will get 50 mpg regardless of your driving style, how you maintain the vehicle, and how much weight you're carrying will all affect your mileage. I hope she loses in court. The speedometer in my 2001 Sunfire goes up to 220 KPH. I know the car won't go that fast. Should I take Pontiac to small claims for false advertising too? Rant over. I love you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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