Members draelyc Posted July 28, 2006 Members Share Posted July 28, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe facts are facts...we don't have access to the pertinent facts to hold this Administration accountable cause we aren't sure of the objectives and the desired results yet. Horse{censored}.A) The administration has STATED its objectives and desired results NUMEROUS times (changing its story each time, btw...)B) The actions taken cannot possible result in the achieving of the stated objectives, as evidenced by the CURRENT DISASTER.C) We can, with relative ease, DEDUCE the *real* objectives and desired results by analyzing the actions taken.This last, btw, is the absolute patriotic DUTY of every single American citizen, and it is the core value upon which our society was founded -- the price of Liberty is eternal Vigilance! We must watch the behavior of our leaders closely, because it's UP TO US to keep them on track! the sad thing: you guys all think you are smarter than the current Administration.A monkey {censored}-fight at the zoo is smarter than the current administration. this is nothing short of a laugh.....though it is sad... Another contradiction. How do you live in that head of yours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 28, 2006 Members Share Posted July 28, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe wasn't Jesus crucified because a group of religious factions whipped-up a crowd of dupes by falsifying information and manipulated govt. officials (Roman) in order to get a desired result (Jesus DEAD!)???? Um, you might want to review that history, as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 28, 2006 Members Share Posted July 28, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe wasn't Jesus crucified because a group of religious factions whipped-up a crowd of dupes by falsifying information and manipulated govt. officials (Roman) in order to get a desired result (Jesus DEAD!)???? But since you missed the point of my analogy, I'll spell it out for you: you're currently singing the praises of the present administration and steadfastly denying the FACTS about the negative consequences of its actions. Take you out of the present day and put you in ancient Rome doing the same thing, and you'd be singing the praises of Pilate and the Pharisees, telling Christ's followers that the government was doing them so much good, and if they thought otherwise, they were being egotistical and arrogant, since they didn't know all the facts that their leaders had access to... Get it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 28, 2006 Members Share Posted July 28, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe you have a skewed understanding of current affairs and historical events. There's a term, in psychology, for what you're doing. It's called "projection." Look it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Craggin Posted July 28, 2006 Members Share Posted July 28, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe facts are facts...we don't have access to the pertinent facts to hold this Administration accountable cause we aren't sure of the objectives and the desired results yet.the sad thing: you guys all think you are smarter than the current Administration.this is nothing short of a laugh.....though it is sad... What is sad is your circular logic...especially because you're the only one who doesn't see it. Facts are facts? WTF??? You said we don't have access to facts, or at least the "liberal media" doesn't. (But yet somehow you have all the "facts".) Would you mind telling me where you get your information from...you obviously have access to some "facts" that enlighten you and demonstrate how wrong EVERYONE ELSE IN THE ENTIRE WORLD IS. If "we're not sure of the objectives and desired results" yet...I'd say that's because they've never been articulated. Every general interviewed has stated a similar assessment "we never fully understood what we were getting into". Wait, I'm an American...I must not have heard that correctly because I'm not privy to such sensitive information. I would also say that if "we don't know the objectives and desired result yet" THEN WTF ARE WE DOING THERE???? ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? "Sure America...trust me, I'm your President and I'm going to send tens of thousands of young people to their deaths...but don't worry about that, I know more than you do and I don't have to tell you why." Sorry, but that kind of rational and logic goes against the very fiber of our founding principles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members la0tsu Posted July 28, 2006 Members Share Posted July 28, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe Actually, I have read the ENTIRE BOOK! 'The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich'...a few times, actually...thanks for asking!I am in accordance with the current experts (CIA, NSA etc...) and recognize the difficulties in running a war on terror with a bunch of 'left-leaning' micro-managers foaming at the mouth based on very limited biased media reports...which, BTW, is EXACTLY what Joseph Goebbels did to message the masses during the 3rd Reich. A bunch of Hagelian dupes! You may have read it, but you sure as hell didn't understand it. Left-leaning micromanagers. What the {censored} ever. Come back when you have something informative to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Loghead Posted July 28, 2006 Members Share Posted July 28, 2006 Originally posted by draelyc A monkey {censored}-fight at the zoo is smarter than the current administration. Most amusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 28, 2006 Members Share Posted July 28, 2006 Originally posted by Loghead Most amusing. Thanks, but you know me -- I stole it from a movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitar shmoe Posted July 28, 2006 Members Share Posted July 28, 2006 Originally posted by draelyc But since you missed the point of my analogy, I'll spell it out for you: you're currently singing the praises of the present administration and steadfastly denying the FACTS about the negative consequences of its actions.Take you out of the present day and put you in ancient Rome doing the same thing, and you'd be singing the praises of Pilate and the Pharisees, telling Christ's followers that the government was doing them so much good, and if they thought otherwise, they were being egotistical and arrogant, since they didn't know all the facts that their leaders had access to...Get it? At the end of the day when all the facts and evidence is in, and it definitely impunes the current Administration as morons and inept...if that is the case, then I will agree with you,.... then. However, the jury is still out and you are rushing to conclusions and judgment. (again, you don't understand what you are judging, though you think you do...(pride)). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitar shmoe Posted July 28, 2006 Members Share Posted July 28, 2006 Originally posted by la0tsu You may have read it, but you sure as hell didn't understand it. Left-leaning micromanagers. What the {censored} ever. Come back when you have something informative to say. Jeepers!!! you told me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 28, 2006 Members Share Posted July 28, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe At the end of the day when all the facts and evidence is in, and it definitely impunes the current Administration as morons and inept...if that is the case, then I will agree with you,.... then. However, the jury is still out and you are rushing to conclusions and judgment. (again, you don't understand what you are judging, though you think you do...(pride)). RUSHING?!?!? How many thousands MORE have to die before it becomes WRONG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Craggin Posted July 28, 2006 Members Share Posted July 28, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe At the end of the day when all the facts and evidence is in, and it definitely impunes the current Administration as morons and inept...if that is the case, then I will agree with you,.... then. However, the jury is still out and you are rushing to conclusions and judgment. (again, you don't understand what you are judging, though you think you do...(pride)). No need...plenty of facts on other matters impugned them already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 28, 2006 Members Share Posted July 28, 2006 Originally posted by Craggin No need...plenty of facts on other matters impugned them already. Noice:thu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitar shmoe Posted July 28, 2006 Members Share Posted July 28, 2006 Originally posted by Craggin No need...plenty of facts on other matters impugned them already. Judged in the court of public opinion and found wanting....cliche' no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 28, 2006 Members Share Posted July 28, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe Judged in the court of public opinion and found wanting....cliche' no? Still ignoring the root causes of that public opinion, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Craggin Posted July 28, 2006 Members Share Posted July 28, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe Judged in the court of public opinion and found wanting....cliche' no? Reductive conclusion...no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitar shmoe Posted July 28, 2006 Members Share Posted July 28, 2006 Originally posted by draelyc Take you out of the present day and put you in ancient Rome doing the same thing, and you'd be singing the praises of Pilate and the Pharisees, telling Christ's followers that the government was doing them so much good, and if they thought otherwise, they were being egotistical and arrogant, since they didn't know all the facts that their leaders had access to...Get it? No, draelyc, I think you misunderstand what I am saying here... The Pharisees and Saducees had an agenda and manipulated information as well as the Roman govt and the fickle crowds in order to get the desired response: Jesus crucified. I submit that the exact same thing is being done today, by Liberal Democrats manipulating information and images to tell a biased story that they want to sell to the American people in order to get a desired response: 'Get rid of the Bush Administration'.... it's easy to criticize the players on the field isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Craggin Posted July 28, 2006 Members Share Posted July 28, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe ... I submit that the exact same thing is being done today, by Liberal Democrats manipulating information and images to tell a biased story that they want to sell to the American people in order to get a desired response: 'Get rid of the Bush Administration'....it's easy to criticize the players on the field isn't it? I submit the EXACT same thing is being done today, by Conservative Republicans manipulating information and images to tell a biased story that they want to sell to the American people in order to get a desired response: "Support the War on Terror"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitar shmoe Posted July 28, 2006 Members Share Posted July 28, 2006 Originally posted by draelyc This last, btw, is the absolute patriotic DUTY of every single American citizen, and it is the core value upon which our society was founded -- the price of Liberty is eternal Vigilance! We must watch the behavior of our leaders closely, because it's UP TO US to keep them on track! yes! and let us wait until we have unadulterated full disclosure of information before we rush to judgment?Our system, then, allows for us to speak via the VOTING POLLS. So, if you are still not satisfied in a coupla years...go ahead and vote for the Democratic ticket: Pres. Hillary and VP. George Clooney. I'm sure they will do much better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Loghead Posted July 28, 2006 Members Share Posted July 28, 2006 This thread actually makes for some interesting reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 28, 2006 Members Share Posted July 28, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe No, draelyc, I think you misunderstand what I am saying here... The Pharisees and Saducees had an agenda and manipulated information as well as the Roman govt and the fickle crowds in order to get the desired response: Jesus crucified. If you stop right there, you might be onto something -- as long as you admit that what you're doing in the present day is tatamount to praising the "leadership" of the Pharisees! I submit that the exact same thing is being done today, by Liberal Democrats manipulating information and images to tell a biased story that they want to sell to the American people in order to get a desired response: 'Get rid of the Bush Administration'....Here's where you reveal your complete lack of understanding regarding analogy.The "story" that was sold to the American people was CREATED BY CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS IN THE WHITE HOUSE, not by "liberal Democrats"; that story falsely postulated that Iraq A) had something to do with 9/11, B) had something to do with international terrorism at all, C) had weapons of mass destruction, and D) was a "clear and imminent threat" to the United States of America.*That's* the biased story that was SOLD to further the specific agenda of a select few individuals in leadership positions (like the Pharisees) whose goals included all of their own personal interests and NONE of the nation's security interests.The public outrage (though four years too late, imo) that you're now decrying as "biased" storytelling and spin is nothing of the kind; rather, it is the profoundly NATURAL reaction of people who are discovering THEY'VE BEEN DUPED! And YOU have the audacity to tell us "Don't complain -- everything's fine!" Tell that to the grieving families! it's easy to criticize the players on the field isn't it? When have I EVER done that? Huh? I can't hear you! All I have ever said of the players in the field (i.e., the soldiers) is BRING THEM HOME NOW!I have criticized the LEADERS AT HOME who do not have to face life in the field, yet who spend the lives of our soldiers as if they were no better than Monopoly money! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 28, 2006 Members Share Posted July 28, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe yes! and let us wait until we have unadulterated full disclosure of information before we rush to judgment? Again, RUSHING?!?!?!?Are you out of yer freakin' MIND? How long shall we SUPPORT atrocity in the name of not rushing to judge?How many tens of thousands more soldiers, hundreds of thousands of people, must die before you're willing to say "this is wrong!"? How many QUADRILLIONS of dollars in debt must we accumulate before you EVENTUALLY get around to holding your leaders accountable for BANKRUPTING our treasury and mortgaging our national soul? Our system, then, allows for us to speak via the VOTING POLLS.I'm not even going to get into all the suspect, and at times outright illegal, behavior of the Bush campaign during the last election. So, if you are still not satisfied in a coupla years...go ahead and vote for the Democratic ticket: Pres. Hillary and VP. George Clooney. I'm sure they will do much better It sickens me that you can hold thoughts like these in your head and still be considered a responsible *adult* who is allowed to vote. Don't get me wrong -- I'll defend your right to vote to the end, but geez-louise are you not remotely qualified to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitar shmoe Posted July 28, 2006 Members Share Posted July 28, 2006 Originally posted by draelyc The "story" that was sold to the American people was CREATED BY CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS IN THE WHITE HOUSE, not by "liberal Democrats"; that story falsely postulated that Iraq A) had something to do with 9/11, B) had something to do with international terrorism at all, C) had weapons of mass destruction, and D) was a "clear and imminent threat" to the United States of America. When have I EVER done that? Huh? I can't hear you! All I have ever said of the players in the field (i.e., the soldiers) is BRING THEM HOME NOW! I have criticized the LEADERS AT HOME who do not have to face life in the field, yet who spend the lives of our soldiers as if they were no better than Monopoly money! By 'players in the field' I meant the Bush Administration...Do you forget that it was the recomendation of all intel sources (foreign and domestic) that Iraq had WMD (context...)....we know for a fact that they did at one point, just because hindsight is 20/20 you cannot backtrack and accuse ( with ZERO evidence..)the Bush Admin. of DELIBERATELY mis-leading the people because he wanted to to to war...I'm sorry the facts do not support this 'accusation'. He isn't guilty because you THINK he is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Craggin Posted July 28, 2006 Members Share Posted July 28, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe Do you forget that it was the recomendation of all intel sources (foreign and domestic) that Iraq had WMD (context...) WHAT????? WRONG!! That was the point of controversy between various intel sources...not all of them COULD agree that they still existed. There were many sources that believed they didn't have them. And you accused me of revisionist history??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitar shmoe Posted July 28, 2006 Members Share Posted July 28, 2006 Originally posted by Craggin WHAT????? WRONG!! That was the point of controversy between various intel sources...not all of them COULD agree that they still existed. There were many sources that believed they didn't have them.And you accused me of revisionist history??? you are simply wrong on this point. The intel report that was available to president Bush, before Iraq conflict, acknowledged that Iraq most definitely had WMD. Including best available info from British, French American intel agencies etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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