[META-THREAD] The Religion Thread: Discuss Here Please!

[SnaxSlingerAns]

well, when you consider that god only exists as a figment of your imagination, it stands to reason that god needs you to exist.

 

 

If it's your opinion that A God only exists in people's imaginations, then yeah, I guess I can see your viewpoint, however, considering I believe in A GOD, or a higher power, whatever you'd like to call it, then God would not need people to exist, since he created us. Kinda like we don't need cars to exist, but they certainly need us to exist.

 

But, FWIW, I understand your viewpoint and can accept the possibility, can you do the same?

 

-Ans-

[jimbojamz]

here's my .02 worth
for anyone to say there is no god, they have to explain not only the order found in the universe, but they have to show "cause" for the universe. no matter how far back you go in time, there was a "first cause" period.
i'm not here to debate if there is a kind, loving god thats personnally intersted in each of us. i just know that God created the universe. no other explaination has ever been put forward that would remotly explain how all "this" got here.

[draelyc]

Then why is this god person some here speak of not doing something about it.

Who says He isn't?

He was able to create the universe as you say, so why can't he at least put those people out of their misery?

There are more things betwixt Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

It's ridiculous to say you believe in a god because you saw so much beauty, for every beautiful thing you see there are at least 4 horrible things going on.

So, a four-to-one ratio is enough to make any beautiful thing, um, not beautiful?

That makes NO sense, mang!

[Syn Harvest]

I think by those points alone though, the arguement can easily be made that it wasn't a God that made us, but we simply came to be what we are based on the variables that were laid out for us, basically we fine tuned ourselves into what we are today, so we can look at those variables and say "wow, everything on this planet is PERFECT for us to live in, how did that happen without a God?", when it is more of a case of " WE are perfect FOR THIS PLANET, we adapted PERFECTLY to this planet and it's conditions, so if it were to be messed us, we'd all die off." -Ans-

My belief is that it is beyond coincidence, however if it is a coincidence then it is and your entitled to your opinion on the subject. i understand where your coming from and it is possible that your correct and its possible that i am so im not gonna argue as the groundings for this arguement arent solidified by facts so ill leave you to your beliefs if you leave me to mine.

[chromatica17]

The Bible teaches to witness...BUT...if they DON'T want to hear...shake dust off your feet and go on....Christians that are pushy and cram God/Jesus down peoples throats are actually going against God's word...Most christians don't read their Bible you understand...they rely on a preacher to tell them stuff one hour every Sunday....WRONG...i believe going to church is good...but christians need to read the Bible for themselves and get their own convictions !!!!! Their is a difference between witnessing *or trying to* and being that pushy christian

 

 

Let me ask you this.

Do you consider yourself to be a better person than say someone who doesn't go to church of even believe in god??

[antiochband]

I'm an Agnostic, because the existence or non-existence of God can never be proved scientifically.

[chromatica17]

here's my .02 worth for anyone to say there is no god, they have to explain not only the order found in the universe, but they have to show "cause" for the universe. no matter how far back you go in time, there was a "first cause" period. i'm not here to debate if there is a kind, loving god thats personnally intersted in each of us. i just know that God created the universe. no other explaination has ever been put forward that would remotly explain how all "this" got here.

 

 

Not familiar with the Big Bang theory?

[catphish]

here's my .02 worth for anyone to say there is no god, they have to explain not only the order found in the universe, but they have to show "cause" for the universe.

No they don't. Our understanding of the how and why is never complete, we're always learning more.

It's okay to say "we don't know everything yet.". Why does not believing in god require a complete and finished explanation? We don't have to know how we got here, exactly, to be here. I'm proof.

[SnaxSlingerAns]

My belief is that it is beyond coincidence, however if it is a coincidence then it is and your entitled to your opinion on the subject. i understand where your coming from and it is possible that your correct and its possible that i am so im not gonna argue as the groundings for this arguement are solidified by facts so ill leave you to your beliefs if you leave me to mine.

No problem dude, but I think you'd find that our beliefs on the subject are actually far more in line with each other than that post may lead you to believe, however, I am simply tryingto be objective about the matter, and from those points alone, the case which I stated above, can certainly be made.

When it coems to God and my beliefs, when asked, I will let people know them to a certain extent, and share my faith with others, however, I do not push those beliefs on others because my experiences have not been shared by those other people, so my perspective is different, so using the stance of "well this happened to me", is not effective, nor fair, so I leave them to be. If their experiences lead them to believe the same as myself, wonderful, if not, wonderful. In the end, it won't make a difference on my life, my beliefs, or the outcome of my life, so their beliefs are very inconsequenctial.

I simply enjoy good debates, and I like to try and look at things from both sides of the coin, which is why my previous post was posted.

-Ans-

[Sandman31774]

 

Let me ask you this. Do you consider yourself to be a better person than say someone who doesn't go to church of even believe in god??

 

 

 

Not at all...even christians like myself are sinners....God created us ALL EQUAL....to think i'm better than someone is boastful/arrogance and that is a sin !! MANY CHRISTIANS don't realize that !!!!! I am better than no one.

[Waterfowlmagnet]

I believe in God.
Proof: Something is keeping me from cutting you open and feasting on your intestines. As bad as I want to, I just can't do it.

[draelyc]

well, when you consider that god only exists as a figment of your imagination, it stands to reason that god needs you to exist.

***IF*** the premise is true, then that could be a reasonable conclusion.

The premise is a bit shaky, though -- but only in the sense that it is, itself, a statement of faith.

One make take it on faith that "god" is merely a figment of human imagination; one cannot prove that assertion to be true; it is merely an assumption.

So is the assumption that god exists. Both are statements of faith, and both precede reason/proof.

[catphish]

 

One make take it on faith that "god" is merely a figment of human imagination; one cannot prove that assertion to be true; it is merely an assumption.

 

 

That's definitely because it's impossible to prove something doesn't exist. Russel's Teapot.

[knucklefux]

But, FWIW, I understand your viewpoint and can accept the possibility, can you do the same? -Ans-

 

 

i CAN understand your viewpoint, however, i can not accept it as a possibility. it all goes back to who made who. if god made the universe, who made god? since i KNOW that the universe exists, there isn't really a reason to ASSUME that god made it.

[draelyc]

Not familiar with the Big Bang theory?

That's a theory which explains HOW. It does not, and it cannot, even begin to touch on WHY. And it doesn't try to -- science ignores such questions ("why does the universe exist?"), because they cannot be tested by material, empirical means.

Such questions are inherently PHILOSOPHICAL. To answer them, one must turn to philosophy.

[draelyc]

Perhaps because it's impossible to prove something doesn't exist. Russel's Teapot.

Perhaps. Not "definitely."

More likely, it's because the only things that could qualify as "proof" of such a thing are inherently non-empirical, and therefore are not transferable from one person to another, but rather can only be experienced directly and first-hand.

[knucklefux]

philosophy isn't answers, either. it's only some individual's idea. basically, any idea i have is just as valid as any idea you have. my idea is that there IS no why. there is no purpose. it's just a carbon cycle.

 

as a matter of fact, i'd say george carlin has about the best idea. maybe the earth just needed a bunch of plastic...

[draelyc]

i CAN understand your viewpoint, however, i can not accept it as a possibility. it all goes back to who made who. if god made the universe, who made god? since i KNOW that the universe exists, there isn't really a reason to ASSUME that god made it.

Consider the possibility that the universe wasn't "made," but simply IS, always HAS BEEN, and always WILL BE.

I'm not talking about our individual solar system, of course, or even of individual galaxies or clusters of galaxies, but the whole shebang.

If this premise is valid, one could then declare that there is no god, because no "maker" is required.

Conversely, one could simply declare that the universe IS god.

Either way, it's interesting to think about, innit?

[catphish]

Perhaps. Not "definitely."

 

 

Fixed. Makes no difference. The burden of proof is noton the non-believer to disprove unfalsifiable claims of religions. Your logic is flawed.

[STEEL KAGE]

Does there really have to be a 'reason'?? Why ISN'T there a way this whole existence is just cells and matter? BTW, the poll does not give the only truthful answer as an option: NO ONE KNOWS. EDIT: Answering the 'why' question: I was raised Catholic. But somewhere along the line, I started using my 'God-given' brain instead of choosing to believe stories that have not been updated in 1300+ years - and I compared the likelihood given all I see around me. The answer I have at this point: I don't believe in God. A God that really exists would not require my belief; likewise, all the belief in the world would not bring a God into actual existence. I don't claim a non-existence of God, but I do say the existence of such an entity is preposterously unlikely.

 

 

I get a kick out of everyone who states that they dont have faith because they used their brain or are "free Thinkers", its just a silly justification and assumption.

 

I was raised Catholic and came away despising the Church and the concept of God. However, somewhere along the way, I ve had way too many experiences that for me , solidify my belief in The Man Upstairs. This is my personal truth and mine alone, I dont presume for any of it to sway anyone else.. I see proof of His presence everywhere in almost anything and if anything, Science reaffirms my faith.

 

Im not so sure about the statement of God requiring your belief either, My personal opinion is that He exists whether you believe in him or not..

 

One thing that I see from many is that God has endured alot of crap through the ages thanks to man and his constant need to meddle and {censored} up anything and everything that he touches.

 

God has ended up wearing the black eye for all of these chuckleheads out there that do screwed up things in His name. God aint the problem; The epileptic monkey trying to hump a football( otherwise known as man) is the problem. Hence the reason that religion is scorned upon and I cant say that I blame its detractors..

[SnaxSlingerAns]

i CAN understand your viewpoint, however, i can not accept it as a possibility. it all goes back to who made who. if god made the universe, who made god? since i KNOW that the universe exists, there isn't really a reason to ASSUME that god made it.

 

 

If you can't accept something as a possibility, then you are no better off than the religious people you condemn for not looking at science objectively.

 

-Ans-

[STEEL KAGE]

Fixed. Makes no difference. The burden of proof is noton the non-believer to disprove unfalsifiable claims of religions. Your logic is flawed.

So is yours if you think that you can try to apply logic to Faith..

Newsflash, Trying to apply logic to faith is like trying to determine blood pressure with a pedal tuner; wrong tool for the wrong job... BTW, not being able to prove somthing doesnt mean that it doesnt exist..

[Chrisjd]

So is yours if you think that you can try to apply logic to Faith.. Newsflash, Trying to apply logic to faith is like trying to determine blood pressure with a pedal tuner; wrong tool for the wrong job... BTW, not being able to prove somthing doesnt mean that it doesnt exist..

well said.

[catphish]

So is yours if you think that you can try to apply logic to Faith.. Newsflash, Trying to apply logic to faith is like trying to determine blood pressure with a pedal tuner; wrong tool for the wrong job... BTW, not being able to prove somthing doesnt mean that it doesnt exist..

Lots of things that people once believed but couldn't prove were ultimately shown to be true, OR not be true. Why would god get a pass from all logical conversation? Why is applying logic to his existence off limits?

[draelyc]

philosophy isn't answers, either. it's only some individual's idea. basically, any idea i have is just as valid as any idea you have.

Well, yes and no ... not really ...

Don't take that the wrong way -- I'm NOT saying that my ideas are better than your ideas!

But I am saying that every idea (that anybody has) is not necessarily as valid as any other idea.

Philosophy is NOT merely "some individual's idea." There are many different philosophies, to be sure, but philosophy itself, as a disciple, offers a coherent and consistent method for evaluating the validity of various ideas, in the same way that the scientific method offers a coherent and consistent way to test the validity of empirical and materialistic claims (hypotheses). Dig?

my idea is that there IS no why. there is no purpose. it's just a carbon cycle.

And that's fair enough. You do understand, though, that this assertion ^^ is essentially a statement of FAITH, right? You're taking it on faith that there's no "why," no purpose -- because there's no way to know that for certain by means of empirical evidence.

There's nothing wrong with your belief, and I have no interest in trying to change your mind. I just think it's important that we all realize that whenever we go beyond asking "what" and "how," and start discussing "why," we've left science behind and we're entering the realm of philosophy. That's all I was trying to say.

as a matter of fact, i'd say george carlin has about the best idea. maybe the earth just needed a bunch of plastic...