Members RiderOnTime Posted June 7, 2009 Members Share Posted June 7, 2009 I know it's an old gripe but I thought I'd ask the question directly. Most people seem to rate Fender amps as providers of the definitive clean tone but relatively few claim to like their overdrive channels. Even sales staff will demonstrate the clean channel and then apologetically tell you that the overdrive "isn't too bad". So what is it that stops Fender from being able to produce a decent overdrive? Is there some fundamental technical issue that just means you can't have good cleans and overdrives from the same box - are they mutually exclusive?! Next time: the deficiencies of the Marshall clean sound! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tele62 Posted June 7, 2009 Members Share Posted June 7, 2009 I always assumed it was primarily to do with the speakers they use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Abouttreefitty Posted June 7, 2009 Members Share Posted June 7, 2009 My Tone Master would like to have a word with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HKSblade1 Posted June 7, 2009 Members Share Posted June 7, 2009 good amp for pedals try a supersonic! more gain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wilg8 Posted June 7, 2009 Members Share Posted June 7, 2009 i thought theyre vintage modifieds didnt sound all that bad, compared to all the other fenders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MRscratch Posted June 7, 2009 Members Share Posted June 7, 2009 i have a 64 super reverb that will kick you in the nuts! it sure aint metal gain, but its incredibly punchy and gobs of sustain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rampage Posted June 7, 2009 Members Share Posted June 7, 2009 Bassman. Ever heard of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gibsongina Posted June 7, 2009 Members Share Posted June 7, 2009 i have a 64 super reverb that will kick you in the nuts! it sure aint metal gain, but its incredibly punchy and gobs of sustain.That and a nice boost will give you ridiculously good overdrive sounds But as far as their newer channel switching amps go, I dunno. The channel switching twin's overdrive? Meh. The Supersonic? Better, but I haven't actually heard one cranked up in a mix either. The metalhead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wilg8 Posted June 7, 2009 Members Share Posted June 7, 2009 1959 Bassman. Ever heard of it?fixed, and this ftw.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hecticone Posted June 7, 2009 Members Share Posted June 7, 2009 My hotrod deville is like meh when played byitself. But in a mix it sounds really decent. But I still use a lot of pedals to push the clean side.This is probaly my 8th or 9th fender and I truly like this one the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members greg apocalypse Posted June 7, 2009 Members Share Posted June 7, 2009 I know it's an old gripe but I thought I'd ask the question directly. Most people seem to rate Fender amps as providers of the definitive clean tone but relatively few claim to like their overdrive channels. Even sales staff will demonstrate the clean channel and then apologetically tell you that the overdrive "isn't too bad". So what is it that stops Fender from being able to produce a decent overdrive? Is there some fundamental technical issue that just means you can't have good cleans and overdrives from the same box - are they mutually exclusive?! Next time: the deficiencies of the Marshall clean sound! maybe you're looking for metal gain I've never heard deficiences with their OVERDRIVEN sounds in most amps. Look at the Blues Junior. MMMMM that saturates right up. I think you're on a separate "gain" page from the rest of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RiffDaemon Posted June 7, 2009 Members Share Posted June 7, 2009 Look at the Blues Junior. MMMMM that saturates right up.. Stop it. I've been Gas'ing for a warm overdriven blues sound, and I eventually got over it ... but now you've brought it back. I need to play one of these Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RiderOnTime Posted June 7, 2009 Author Members Share Posted June 7, 2009 maybe you're looking for metal gain I've never heard deficiences with their OVERDRIVEN sounds in most amps. Look at the Blues Junior. MMMMM that saturates right up. I think you're on a separate "gain" page from the rest of us. Nope, I'm definitely not looking for metal, just a decent crunch that isn't grainy and course sounding. I've had a few Fender amps and I'm not trying to criticise them per se but the ones with a drive channel have been pretty painful. My mid-90s Concert had lovely cleans but a really painful drive, plus a boost channel in case the previous one didn't torture you enough! The HRD has a better drive than that did but it's still not great. Bassman. Ever heard of it? Ah yes. I remember that. Marshall based their entire existence on it, didn't they? No reverb, though, which is a shame as I love a good bit of Fender reverb. Yes, I appreciate that reverb came a bit later than the Bassman... But what I was trying to ask in the original post, a little cheekily, was whether there is actually something in the components which make up the beloved Fender clean tone which also somehow prevents a nice bit of crunch. Evidently there was enough in the Bassman's circuitry to allow Marshall to getting roaring (although their cleans are a bit lacking, hence my 'mutually exclusive' query). Do 6L6s not overdrive well? Do EL34s not deliver a classic clean? Or is it something else all together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarbilly74 Posted June 7, 2009 Members Share Posted June 7, 2009 There are a few fender amps with good overdrive: Super Sonic, Prosonic, Tone Master, Super 60 are the ones that come to mind right now but I'm sure there are more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mohowski Posted June 7, 2009 Members Share Posted June 7, 2009 Drive By Truckers use silverface amps cranked way up and their sound is {censored}ing awesome, real crunchy. Fender Deluxes can bring some thick fuzzy overdrive that is just awesome like none other. The old ZZ-Top sound is Brownface and Tweed fender Deluxe, cranked way up. And their first few albums have some roaring toans... Think "Brown Sugar", "Waitin' on The Bus", "Beer Drinkers and Hell Raisers". I absolutely love my prosonic. The clean is wonderful and very complex, and the drive channel is very capable of bringing teh br00tz and has two gain controls that respond a bit differently plus a master volume so you can get tones all over the spectrum, from light breakup, crunchy classic rock overdrive, and full out shred. With the gain dimed its absolutely insane. The tone-master, another Zinky-designed fender capable of great tube distortion. I've seen a few bands use them live and they sounded awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Josh33 Posted June 7, 2009 Members Share Posted June 7, 2009 Bassman. Ever heard of it? hahaha this. ^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarcapo Posted June 7, 2009 Members Share Posted June 7, 2009 Vintage Fender amp designs of the 50's and 60's saw distortion as a bad thing. Leo was trying to make the clean sounds better. But I think they sound fine overdriven with pedals: [YOUTUBE]1GSpbuFSr2o[/YOUTUBE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Badside Posted June 7, 2009 Members Share Posted June 7, 2009 But what I was trying to ask in the original post, a little cheekily, was whether there is actually something in the components which make up the beloved Fender clean tone which also somehow prevents a nice bit of crunch. Evidently there was enough in the Bassman's circuitry to allow Marshall to getting roaring (although their cleans are a bit lacking, hence my 'mutually exclusive' query). Do 6L6s not overdrive well? Do EL34s not deliver a classic clean? Or is it something else all together? The funny thing is that Fender almost invented the nice overdrive. Their early designs, including the Bassman, but also the Champ and the (tweed) Deluxe, are classics when it comes to overdriven tone. However, Leo wasn't going for distortion, and saw that as a bad thing, and went to great lenghts to make his amps as clean as possible, hence why you can push a Twin Reverb to ungodly levels before it overdrives. One big difference about later Fender design is the tone stack just after the input stage, instead of before the PI like on the Bassman. What that does is bleed a lot of gain to ground right at the beginning, but also if you try to get any kind of decent bass out of it, it turns to mush.BUT, that's exactly how a Mesa Mark works too, but the later stages are configured very carefully to compensate and the graphic EQ is the icing on the cake (allows you to cut bass on the tone stack, yet boost it back just before the PI, for tight cutting gain). That said, it seems to me that it wouldn't be very hard to have a clean channel using the Twin Reverb topology, while having a dirty channel with the Bassman topology. I'm working on a circuit that will do exactly that, plus a 3rd channel based on the Mark serie but simplified and with less filtering. Regarding 6L6 tubes, they are used in the Mark, the Rectifier, and some people are modifying their Marshalls to fit them, as they have a deeper bottom end. There is no reason you can't get nice dirty tones out of them, but they won't overdrive the way a EL34 does when pushed. The speakers are a big difference though, not to mention most Fender amps are open-back combos, vs close-back cabs for the typical high-gainer (closed-back = tighter bigger low-end). Interesting fact: the closest to the vintage Angus Young tone I've ever been was using a silverface Bandmaster, dimed into a Power Soak, using a Fender 2X12 closed-back cab. Guitar was a... Telecaster! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheEsupremacy Posted June 7, 2009 Members Share Posted June 7, 2009 I can't believe nobody has posted this - EVH's 5150 III was designed/implemented by Fender. If that ain't great overdrive, I don't know what to tell you. Channel 2 and 3 = . The amps clean channel kicks all kinds of ass too.I've never heard the Fender Metalhead in person but it seems to be the focus of a lot of jokes around here, I don't know if it's because of the way it looks or sounds, or both... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RiderOnTime Posted June 7, 2009 Author Members Share Posted June 7, 2009 The funny thing is that Fender almost invented the nice overdrive. Their early designs, including the Bassman, but also the Champ and the (tweed) Deluxe, are classics when it comes to overdriven tone. However, Leo wasn't going for distortion, and saw that as a bad thing, and went to great lenghts to make his amps as clean as possible, hence why you can push a Twin Reverb to ungodly levels before it overdrives. One big difference about later Fender design is the tone stack just after the input stage, instead of before the PI like on the Bassman. What that does is bleed a lot of gain to ground right at the beginning, but also if you try to get any kind of decent bass out of it, it turns to mush. BUT, that's exactly how a Mesa Mark works too, but the later stages are configured very carefully to compensate and the graphic EQ is the icing on the cake (allows you to cut bass on the tone stack, yet boost it back just before the PI, for tight cutting gain). That said, it seems to me that it wouldn't be very hard to have a clean channel using the Twin Reverb topology, while having a dirty channel with the Bassman topology. I'm working on a circuit that will do exactly that, plus a 3rd channel based on the Mark serie but simplified and with less filtering. Regarding 6L6 tubes, they are used in the Mark, the Rectifier, and some people are modifying their Marshalls to fit them, as they have a deeper bottom end. There is no reason you can't get nice dirty tones out of them, but they won't overdrive the way a EL34 does when pushed. The speakers are a big difference though, not to mention most Fender amps are open-back combos, vs close-back cabs for the typical high-gainer (closed-back = tighter bigger low-end). Interesting fact: the closest to the vintage Angus Young tone I've ever been was using a silverface Bandmaster, dimed into a Power Soak, using a Fender 2X12 closed-back cab. Guitar was a... Telecaster! Thanks, this has been very helpful. And now to contradict myself somewhat, and prompted by the Angus Young anecdote, I'll concede that one of my favourite overdriven sounds (though not necessarily what I'm aspiring to) is that of Steve Jones from the Sex Pistols using a Twin Reverb... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mortatort Posted June 7, 2009 Members Share Posted June 7, 2009 Fender gets a bad rap for poor overdrive sounds because of the lackluster design in the more modern, sub-$1000 amps such as the Hot Rod series. They have sold so many of these amps and that's primarily where the bad rap comes from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ron Burgandy Posted June 7, 2009 Members Share Posted June 7, 2009 [YOUTUBE]-ODnK5zD-LA[/YOUTUBE] That's a '62 Fender. I've been gigging with vintage Fenders for 10+ years now. Never used an entirely clean sound throughout that entire time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted June 7, 2009 Members Share Posted June 7, 2009 Bassman. Ever heard of it?Or a dimed Champ, or Deluxe, or Tremolux, or Vibrolux, or.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted June 7, 2009 Members Share Posted June 7, 2009 Fender gets a bad rap for poor overdrive sounds because of the lackluster design in the more modern, sub-$1000 amps such as the Hot Rod series. They have sold so many of these amps and that's primarily where the bad rap comes from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted June 7, 2009 Members Share Posted June 7, 2009 ?Your questions are moot because your argument can be easily disproven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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