OT: Gun control...

[KCTigerChief]

 

Originally Posted by theAntihero

Technically a gun is a platform for containing a small explosion that is used to power a lump of metal in a certain direction. Whether you chose to point it at a empty soda can or a person is at the discretion of the person holding the tool. You could also make the argument that guns are used to feed people which isnt exactly a satanic thing.

Also it depends on what the intentions of the person holding the gun and the pencil are. Im less worried about a guy just pointing a gun at me than someone running and attempting to stab me with a pencil.

People have killed one another over the written word without any guns, if there is one thing that mankind has shown an affinity for it is killing one another even if its just with a rock.

I live in an area that probably has 500 guns per 100 people and i believe the last time there was a shooting was something like 15 years ago, statistics mean nothing to the individual but guns are still not able to think for themselves and attack when you least expect it.

 

Thank you

[gdwill2u]

I feel so bad for all the parents who lost children as a result of this horrific crime.

My brother died when he was 8 and was 7, our family was injured permanently. I only wish that our family could have gotten some help, but both my parents for whatever reason did not seek professional help at all

Mojo and prayers go out to the families that are experiencing the unimaginable.

[Michael AE]

 

Originally Posted by KCTigerChief

So a pencil being a writing utinsil, idiots shouldn't have access to them whatsoever...gotcha...

 

An idiot can't kill dozens of people with a pencil. He can with a gun. What's so hard to understand here?

[theAntihero]

 

Originally Posted by Michael AE

NO. Your point doesn't make sense. Yes, a gun won't shoot without some asshole holding it. Can't blame the gun for killing people, right? Well, but we CAN blame the gun for being A DEADLY WEAPON, which PSYCHOPATHS SHOULDN'T HAVE ACCESS TO WHATSOEVER. That's the point people are making against your analogy. That's also the exact reason why it doesn't make any sense.

 

The guy that did the shooting didnt even own a gun, he stole them from his mom. Should we now blame the guns for being so irresistable that he just had to go on a killing spree?

Why is it people are so squeemish about blaming the shooter? Why do people believe that a tool will make you do things? Honestly it shows a lot about a persons character that they think some shiny object can totally change a persons perspective and turn him into a monster. If thats what you think deep down in your soul for godsakes dont own a gun, but for those of us that dont go on bi-yearly shooting sprees with our(gollum voice on) precious (gollum voice off) please kindly dont tell me what i can and cant do.

[theAntihero]

 

Originally Posted by Michael AE

An idiot can't kill dozens of people with a pencil. He can with a gun. What's so hard to understand here?

 

Some one managed to kill a bunch of people with a box cutter, which is pretty much as dangerous as pencil.

Unless of course we take "pencil" as "press" in which case they are about as dangerous a nuclear bomb.

[KCTigerChief]

 

Originally Posted by Michael AE

An idiot can't kill dozens of people with a pencil. He can with a gun. What's so hard to understand here?

 

The fact that you're ignoring the common denominator of the person using the TOOL (REGARDLESS of what that tool is FOR) is the human element. Which people refuse to place the blame on. Instead, it's blamed on the TOOL...

I don't understand how that's so hard for YOU to understand...Quit blaming an inanimate object that doesn't make it's own choices. Blame the one who makes the choice with that tool.

It's really not that hard of a concept. No one is denying a gun can kill people. So can a {censored}ing pencil to the temple. Think about the human element for a minute, and then maybe, just maybe, you'll understand that the gun only does what it's OPERATOR instructs it to do...same as a pencil...

I should NOT have to be describing this in this much detail...wtf is wrong with people

[syscrusher]

 

Originally Posted by Dolf

As a follow-up, my grandfather worked as an aid in Creedmoor State Hospital in Bayshore (Long Island, NY) in the early 60s for several years.

He recalls that during this time, the homeless population (just as an example) was near nonexistent on most of long island and the city of New York. However, due to newer medications and federal budget restraints, deinstitutionalization began in the 1960s in a very big way and accelerated into the 1980s, nearly emptying state-run psychiatric wards.

Most of these people were NOT well adjusted and were all but thrown out onto the street. And that's where they pretty much stayed. In the late 60s, the homeless population in middle island all but exploded and none of these people were fit to see to their own psychiatric care let alone have the wherewithal to be responsible for self medicating.

Since then, we've pretty much looked at mental health as a crapshoot. As a "catch it when you can" kind of thing. Granted there was a lot of abuse with "committing" friends and family members. {censored}, at one time in this country if you were gay you could be confined to a mental hospital. Still many of those people (as Pop recalls) were amiable enough, even responsible when they always got the proper medication at the proper times and were supervised to make sure they took it. You can't do that when you put them out on the street.

 

State-run psychiatric wards back then were pretty much unfit for the patient, a big reason why they were closed. I think they're doing better now but just not enough of them to help take care of the huge numbers of patients, that and funding just isn't there. Families that that struggle with mental illness just don't have the tools because of our lack of taking mental illness seriously.

[AizenX]

 

 

 

 

 

...a DEADLY WEAPON, which PSYCHOPATHS SHOULDN'T HAVE ACCESS TO WHATSOEVER.

 

 

 

 

That's a nice & happy thought, but its too late for that. How exactly do you expect to accomplish this? Laws will not take guns out of a criminals hands. Yes, a gun is a deadly weapon. It's precisely designed for that. A murder weapon only in the hands of a murderer, however.

Personally, I'd rather defend my home with a deadly weapon than one designed for hitting golfballs.

[Michael AE]

I'm not blaming the gun. I'm blaming the access to guns. I'm not saying that everyone owning a gun is a potential killer. I'm saying that if guns are available everywhere and almost anyone can gain access to one, tragedies like these are more likely to happen.

Of course the shooter is the one to blame in this case, not the gun. But he had a gun he had relatively easy access too.

[Raymar]

Can't quite wrap my brain around this new type of gun violence though. In the past it was to steal money or something, to fight back at the cops, or at worst revenge. But shooting up a school full of cute innocent kids that didn't do anything to you? Or go into a movie theater and blast away? No motive, just psychotic killing due to an escaped Id? They all seem to do it in a military fashion as well.

[Sillypeoples]

Maybe it's been said, but a firearm, yes, just projects lead, but it is a 'force multiplier'...and term I don't expect to many musicians in here understand...but basically means that an 86 year old women with a gun is now on some equal footing with a biker with a baseball bat.

When a force multiplier is used on defenseless innocents, you get a slaughter that would be hard to replicate with a knife, sword....unless that person was trained in a particular skill set....where technically to get the body count up, a person would have to be a Kung Fu master...something that level of training would be inconsistent with a mass murder (another thread on psychology)...

Which leaves us to the concept of 'enabling'...that in short is giving people of limited mental capacity and training, much less moral and ethical foundation, the means in which to inflict serious damage.....something this country allows because of it's history of tyrannical governments being the real threat....so we arm idiots to deal with a possible bad government.

The solution is simple...if you feel that the 2nd amendment is needed to forstall a possible Orwellian future, then continue arming morons on the hopes that when the black helicopters come, these retards will be standing post with you, constitution in hand, ready to die for the cause...

Or....we simply give IQ and personality tests to everyone, along with a shooting test....that would slim it down...since I am smart and I know how to fire a weapon....no test that would be administered to the public would pose any problem for me...but watch the howling from the weak, the stupid, the incapable when they are asked to actually bone up for a test, show mental fitness and actually hit a pie plate at 20 yards.

[marshallnoise]

 

Originally Posted by syscrusher

State-run psychiatric wards back then were pretty much unfit for the patient, a big reason why they were closed. I think they're doing better now but just not enough of them to help take care of the huge numbers of patients, that and funding just isn't there. Families that that struggle with mental illness just don't have the tools because of our lack of taking mental illness seriously.

 

The problem is that there is no cure for the mentally ill. Only band-aids, and I am totally fine with band-aids. Especially in the form of pills. But many mentally ill people intentionally stop taking their medication.

Unfortunately, however we deal with mental illness, it is a giant time suck and a giant expense. But we have to do it.

[theAntihero]

 

 

 

 

 

Personally, I'd rather defend my home with a deadly weapon rather than one designed for hitting golfballs.

 

 

 

 

Personally id rather have a legion of trained Chucacabras armed with kukris. And Chuck Norris. And a Gun. And world peace

But since i cant have all that, i have a gun.

Good point about the murderous weapon too, very true.

[KCTigerChief]

 

Originally Posted by Sillypeoples

Maybe it's been said, but a firearm, yes, just projects lead, but it is a 'force multiplier'...and term I don't expect to many musicians in here understand...but basically means that an 86 year old women with a gun is now on some equal footing with a biker with a baseball bat.

When a force multiplier is used on defenseless innocents, you get a slaughter that would be hard to replicate with a knife, sword....unless that person was trained in a particular skill set....where technically to get the body count up, a person would have to be a Kung Fu master...something that level of training would be inconsistent with a mass murder (another thread on psychology)...

Which leaves us to the concept of 'enabling'...that in short is giving people of limited mental capacity and training, much less moral and ethical foundation, the means in which to inflict serious damage.....something this country allows because of it's history of tyrannical governments being the real threat....so we arm idiots to deal with a possible bad government.

The solution is simple...if you feel that the 2nd amendment is needed to forstall a possible Orwellian future, then continue arming morons on the hopes that when the black helicopters come, these retards will be standing post with you, constitution in hand, ready to die for the cause...

Or....we simply give IQ and personality tests to everyone, along with a shooting test....that would slim it down...since I am smart and I know how to fire a weapon....no test that would be administered to the public would pose any problem for me...but watch the howling from the weak, the stupid, the incapable when they are asked to actually bone up for a test, show mental fitness and actually hit a pie plate at 20 yards.

 

Good post, and good ideas...

One question though...Do you really think that would keep guns out of the hands of someone who was determined to get one?

Look at drugs, those are illegal for EVERYONE, yet they are still plentiful...everywhere... I see the same thing happening with guns, no matter the restrictions you put on them. Those who want to do harm, will find a way to get whatever tool necessary to do the job.

[theAntihero]

 

Originally Posted by Michael AE

I'm not blaming the gun. I'm blaming the access to guns. I'm not saying that everyone owning a gun is a potential killer. I'm saying that if guns are available everywhere and almost anyone can gain access to one, tragedies like these are more likely to happen.

Of course the shooter is the one to blame in this case, not the gun. But he had a gun he had relatively easy access too.

 

What would you prefer, gun vending machines that peer into your soul to see if are a good person? Along with some sort of Minority Report-ish precognition?

[AizenX]

 

Originally Posted by KCTigerChief

Good post, and good ideas...

One question though...Do you really think that would keep guns out of the hands of someone who was determined to get one?

Look at drugs, those are illegal for EVERYONE, yet they are still plentiful...everywhere... I see the same thing happening with guns, no matter the restrictions you put on them. Those who want to do harm, will find a way to get whatever tool necessary to do the job.

 

+1

[marshallnoise]

 

Originally Posted by Raymar

Can't quite wrap my brain around this new type of DELETE violence though. In the past it was to steal money or something, to fight back at the cops, or at worst revenge. But shooting up a school full of cute innocent kids that didn't do anything to you? Or go into a movie theater and blast away? No motive, just psychotic killing due to an escaped Id? They all seem to do it in a military fashion as well.

 

It is questionable to think that this type of violence is new, but calling it gun violence misdirects the problem.

[46&2]

Ima lifelong Texas sumbitch and nobody will take my guns away. That don't mean I won't entertain other opinions. Won't give 'em the light of day for consideration and genuinely heartfelt compassion and empathy. Cuz {censored}, man. That's the kinda {censored} that Jesus talked about. Am I right?

[HKSblade1]

 

Originally Posted by Kardula

A buddy of mine did the same/similar thing. His son won't go near guns.

As for gun control...I don't care for it. What I DO care for is gun education. Make people take gun safety courses just like they do a driver's test. People need to know what guns do.

 

IDK man, most of these whackos going on killing sprees have no problem handling their weapons. They seemed well educated in what those weapons can do and how to use them. Mass killing is not an accident.

IMO, we seem to see more of this the more we promote violence. You can't stop crazy people from doing {censored} with guns, knives, bombs etc, but you can limit the amount of enthusiasm that feeds a more violent society.

I'm not surprised by the violence these days. It's promoted on Youtube. Film it instead of breaking it up or doing something before things get out of hand. Great idea! Multiply that by all the asshats that want their Youtube cred. Ask yourself how we are failing each other.

I think we've more than perpetuated and promoted violence enough to tip a lot of people over the edge.

Gun control or Gun bans will just make those individuals use something else.

What we need to do is not promote the fantasy in mass murders.

[jnurp]

the truth is that only the wicked and ill intent have access to guns in most places and they have no fear of consequence because the rest of us in these states are defenseless. And god forbid you actually use your weaon in self defense you will spend the rest of your life in litigation or jail. There are two solutions, either give the right to bare arms to everybody in every state or take away the right all together and make possession of a firearm such a ridiculous crime that it will deter those that may be on the fence about using one. There is no possible way to stop a madman or a madwoman from a rampage like this. If it wasnt a firearm it would have been another weapon of choice.

[SteveiJobzz]

 

Originally Posted by Sillypeoples

Maybe it's been said, but a firearm, yes, just projects lead, but it is a 'force multiplier'...and term I don't expect to many musicians in here understand...but basically means that an 86 year old women with a gun is now on some equal footing with a biker with a baseball bat.

When a force multiplier is used on defenseless innocents, you get a slaughter that would be hard to replicate with a knife, sword....unless that person was trained in a particular skill set....where technically to get the body count up, a person would have to be a Kung Fu master...something that level of training would be inconsistent with a mass murder (another thread on psychology)...

Which leaves us to the concept of 'enabling'...that in short is giving people of limited mental capacity and training, much less moral and ethical foundation, the means in which to inflict serious damage.....something this country allows because of it's history of tyrannical governments being the real threat....so we arm idiots to deal with a possible bad government.

The solution is simple...if you feel that the 2nd amendment is needed to forstall a possible Orwellian future, then continue arming morons on the hopes that when the black helicopters come, these retards will be standing post with you, constitution in hand, ready to die for the cause...

Or....we simply give IQ and personality tests to everyone, along with a shooting test....that would slim it down...since I am smart and I know how to fire a weapon....no test that would be administered to the public would pose any problem for me...but watch the howling from the weak, the stupid, the incapable when they are asked to actually bone up for a test, show mental fitness and actually hit a pie plate at 20 yards.

 

This was a good post.

I would also like to point out those people that say "a gun in no more dangerous than a pencil or a boxcutter or a knife." Yes it is. It is a ranged weapon that is capable of producing more force and energy than all of these other weapons.

Also, for those of you that think the solution to stopping gun violence is to let more people carry in public places like schools, federal buildings, and churches, how do you feel about Iran's nuclear program?

I'm not saying we have to take away people's guns, but maybe we, as a society, should start to change the dialogue of what guns are used for versus what they SHOULD be used for. Over time, I think, the lessening of people's desire to obtain weapons, including guns, will create a more stable, peaceful country for us all to live in.

On the other hand, if there's a news story every week about a guy shooting up a mall or a temple or god {censored}ing forbid, an elementary school, I see more and more people arming themselves, which is the opposite way we want to go as a culture.

[stompboxfreak72]

I just want the violence to stop. Whatever it takes. If I was told that if I burned all my Les Pauls that it would stop one single murder I would light those mothers up. Id do anything.

A gun ban will not happen. Lets not {censored} each other. But where can NRA or pro gun people find a common ground with anti gun proponents ? We have to do something dont we ? Its not so simple as banning guns but you also cannot kling to your second amendment rights and expect things to improve.

In a nutshell.....if we dont ban guns then what do we do ? Im not anti-gun but I am pro-solution. What the {censored} do we do besides sit back and wait for the next tragedy to occur ?

[HKSblade1]

When I was in HS, we had a loony student set off a pipe bomb. Killed two and injured 3. He had just bought the materials a day prior from a local hardware store we all used. Guns were not as easy to come by and violence was not as much a fantasy. After investigating, they found materials enough to make 10 or 20 bombs in this kids house. His parents had no idea. He was trying to kill his ex gf and her friends. They all survived, but other more innocent victims perished.

[KCTigerChief]

 

Originally Posted by HKSblade1

When I was in HS, we had a loony student set off a pipe bomb. Killed two and injured 3. He had just bought the materials a day prior from a local hardware store we all used. Guns were not as easy to come by and violence was not as much a fantasy. After investigating, they found materials enough to make 10 or 20 bombs in this kids house. His parents had no idea. He was trying to kill his ex gf and her friends. They all survived, but other more innocent victims perished.

 

Proof that it doesn't take guns...wow that's a sad story man

I hope he was one of the ones that died?

[marshallnoise]

 

Originally Posted by stompboxfreak72

I just want the violence to stop. Whatever it takes. If I was told that if I burned all my Les Pauls that it would stop one single murder I would light those mothers up. Id do anything.

A gun ban will not happen. Lets not {censored} each other. But where can NRA or pro gun people find a common ground with anti gun proponents ? We have to do something dont we ? Its not so simple as banning guns but you also cannot kling to your second amendment rights and expect things to improve.

In a nutshell.....if we dont ban guns then what do we do ? Im not anti-gun but I am pro-solution. What the {censored} do we do besides sit back and wait for the next tragedy to occur ?

 

First, realize that we cannot stop all tragedy from occurring. Some, yes. All, never.

Second, enforce personal responsibility like the legal system is designed to do. Stop allowing judges to create more exceptions to rules.

Three, eliminate laws that are frivolous and senseless. All they do is undermine the judicial system and will make number 2 pointless.

Four, teach kids what the meaning of cause and effect is. There is a massive disconnect between true cause and effect. It is not being taught anymore in schools and quite frankly, there are probably 3 generations of Americans who have their logical ability completely decimated.

Five, wash, rinse, repeat 1 through 4.

We need social change. But it all starts with personal responsibility.