Members ron2112 Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by ComOp If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. Beat me to it!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members evets618 Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Heisenberg says no to a clockwork universe. You can know the position of a particle, or you can know it's velocity, but you can't know both.That being said, there is a show called "Closer To Truth", in which psychological experiments are discussed that electrical changes associated with decision-making were taking place in the brain *before* the subject made the decision.Fascinating, Captain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members evets618 Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Heisenberg says no to a clockwork universe. You can know the position of a particle, or you can know it's velocity, but you can't know both.That being said, there is a show called "Closer To Truth", in which psychological experiments are discussed that electrical changes associated with decision-making were taking place in the brain *before* the subject made the decision.Fascinating, Captain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TurboRotary13b Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Free will is conditional.. We are all bound to culture, biology, and natural law.. We are slaves to these things.. Unconditional free will (true free will) is not possible for a transient being in the first place... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TurboRotary13b Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Free will is conditional.. We are all bound to culture, biology, and natural law.. We are slaves to these things.. Unconditional free will (true free will) is not possible for a transient being in the first place... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ~Abstract~ Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Cogito ergo sum. or as I prefer... Cogito ergo zoom. It's all we really have to go on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ~Abstract~ Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Cogito ergo sum. or as I prefer... Cogito ergo zoom. It's all we really have to go on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TurboRotary13b Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by evets618 Heisenberg says no to a clockwork universe. You can know the position of a particle, or you can know it's velocity, but you can't know both. That being said, there is a show called "Closer To Truth", in which psychological experiments are discussed that electrical changes associated with decision-making were taking place in the brain *before* the subject made the decision. Fascinating, Captain. You can know both to a inversely proportional degree. You cannot know both with precision though. That is Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. That alone doesn't necessarily negate to possibly of unconditional freewill. The universe itself and all of the laws that allow it's existence do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TurboRotary13b Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by evets618 Heisenberg says no to a clockwork universe. You can know the position of a particle, or you can know it's velocity, but you can't know both. That being said, there is a show called "Closer To Truth", in which psychological experiments are discussed that electrical changes associated with decision-making were taking place in the brain *before* the subject made the decision. Fascinating, Captain. You can know both to a inversely proportional degree. You cannot know both with precision though. That is Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. That alone doesn't necessarily negate to possibly of unconditional freewill. The universe itself and all of the laws that allow it's existence do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BustaPheara Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 I've been in the "free will is an illusion" camp for a while. Classical physics does indeed indicate that all events are caused in a deterministic manner. Free will would require that our brains, which are physical objects, somehow be able to step outside of this deterministic system, but there's no justification for that notion. Quantum physics, if it does change any of this, simply tells us that events at the sub-atomic level are probablistic. I don't see how replacing A causes B with A causes B through Z with determinable probablilities really makes free will any more tenable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BustaPheara Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 I've been in the "free will is an illusion" camp for a while. Classical physics does indeed indicate that all events are caused in a deterministic manner. Free will would require that our brains, which are physical objects, somehow be able to step outside of this deterministic system, but there's no justification for that notion. Quantum physics, if it does change any of this, simply tells us that events at the sub-atomic level are probablistic. I don't see how replacing A causes B with A causes B through Z with determinable probablilities really makes free will any more tenable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ~Abstract~ Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Have you ever doubted anything?Then you thought.Then there is free will.imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ~Abstract~ Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Have you ever doubted anything?Then you thought.Then there is free will.imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarcapo Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Your environment influences the decision making process...and since what you encounter is random, your decision making process can not be perfectly predictable and predetermined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarcapo Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Your environment influences the decision making process...and since what you encounter is random, your decision making process can not be perfectly predictable and predetermined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Markdude Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Having the thought that your thoughts are not predetermined may actually be predetermined!!!!!1111 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Markdude Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Having the thought that your thoughts are not predetermined may actually be predetermined!!!!!1111 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hegmatronicon Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 In a Newtonion universe - this is true.But quantum physics suggests that you can never know the exact location of every particle in the universe at any given time.So i guess.......ummm...no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hegmatronicon Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 In a Newtonion universe - this is true.But quantum physics suggests that you can never know the exact location of every particle in the universe at any given time.So i guess.......ummm...no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ~Abstract~ Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by Markdude Having the thought that your thoughts are not predetermined may actually be predetermined!!!!!1111 And it boils down to "I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am." Beyond that is purely conjecture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ~Abstract~ Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by Markdude Having the thought that your thoughts are not predetermined may actually be predetermined!!!!!1111 And it boils down to "I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am." Beyond that is purely conjecture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stevetemp Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 What you are searching for is your animal self versus your human self. We are both tied to our instincts and disconnected from them. So that is the eternal battle. I have found both very amazing AND so constraining. A civilized human has a balance. It both lives life on the edge, and within social morals. It can be tough to admit one is fallible, that we ALL make mistakes. Just admit that you do...have some humbleness and humility. But enjoy the moment too...and realize that every moment serves the next. The real problem with humans is that we think we know everything, that our experience and process is somehow better than the 3 billion other humans. That we know better. It's something in our mind...I can't quite put my finger on it. Some sort absoluteness. It's almost like we can't view ourselves and how stupid we really are. But hey...just asking these questions is a victory. Thinking. Edit: One of my challenges is leaving my regret behind. I always wish I would make the perfect decision. To act perfectly. To always have perfect grace. Of course I don't. Of course I make mistakes. But I hate that I have to carry some of these mistakes with me forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stevetemp Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 What you are searching for is your animal self versus your human self. We are both tied to our instincts and disconnected from them. So that is the eternal battle. I have found both very amazing AND so constraining. A civilized human has a balance. It both lives life on the edge, and within social morals. It can be tough to admit one is fallible, that we ALL make mistakes. Just admit that you do...have some humbleness and humility. But enjoy the moment too...and realize that every moment serves the next. The real problem with humans is that we think we know everything, that our experience and process is somehow better than the 3 billion other humans. That we know better. It's something in our mind...I can't quite put my finger on it. Some sort absoluteness. It's almost like we can't view ourselves and how stupid we really are. But hey...just asking these questions is a victory. Thinking. Edit: One of my challenges is leaving my regret behind. I always wish I would make the perfect decision. To act perfectly. To always have perfect grace. Of course I don't. Of course I make mistakes. But I hate that I have to carry some of these mistakes with me forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knucklefux Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 it's not even a matter of physics. you can't control your own thoughts, can't stop an urge or craving, can't fully control your body.your brain chemistry is what it is, and you do what you do because of it.a fine example is someone who smokes, but can't quit no matter how badly they want to or how much they hate it (these people do exist, i suspect there are some among us)...or any other addict, really. they continue a behavior in spite of the negative consequences. how could a being with free will choose to do something that can cause them so much discomfort or even death? simple, remove the free will and the question needs not be asked.as i said earlier, i find there to be similarities between the adherence to free will and the adherence to religion...in some ways, xian religion hinges on free will. without it, the whole house of cards falls down. i mention this because i think trying to have a conversation about the existence of free will is about as productive as an athiest and a priest discussing the finer points of faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knucklefux Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 it's not even a matter of physics. you can't control your own thoughts, can't stop an urge or craving, can't fully control your body.your brain chemistry is what it is, and you do what you do because of it.a fine example is someone who smokes, but can't quit no matter how badly they want to or how much they hate it (these people do exist, i suspect there are some among us)...or any other addict, really. they continue a behavior in spite of the negative consequences. how could a being with free will choose to do something that can cause them so much discomfort or even death? simple, remove the free will and the question needs not be asked.as i said earlier, i find there to be similarities between the adherence to free will and the adherence to religion...in some ways, xian religion hinges on free will. without it, the whole house of cards falls down. i mention this because i think trying to have a conversation about the existence of free will is about as productive as an athiest and a priest discussing the finer points of faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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