Members Rear Naked Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by ~Abstract~ Have you ever doubted anything? Then you thought. Then there is free will. imo. wat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rear Naked Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by BustaPheara I've been in the "free will is an illusion" camp for a while. Classical physics does indeed indicate that all events are caused in a deterministic manner. Free will would require that our brains, which are physical objects, somehow be able to step outside of this deterministic system, but there's no justification for that notion. Quantum physics, if it does change any of this, simply tells us that events at the sub-atomic level are probablistic. I don't see how replacing A causes B with A causes B through Z with determinable probablilities really makes free will any more tenable. It doesn't. Free-will-illusion doesn't depend at all on determinism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rear Naked Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by Ron Burgandy So if everything is predetermined this knowledge was meant to be obtained as well as anything that can be done with said knowledge. It doesn't change anything. If the theory is not correct, it's meaningless. What benefit do we have by knowing this? You think the validity of free-will is not important to people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ron Burgandy Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by Rear Naked You think the validity of free-will is not important to people? It won't change anything so no. I don't think it will benefit the masses. I think arguing destiny is predetermined will remove personal responsibility from the conscience of too many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rear Naked Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by Ron Burgandy So if we don't have free will and this is all predetermined, having this knowledge won't change anything. If not, this is pointless banter on a message board. It's not a power to harness either way. Don't get stuck on the determinism part. That is secondary to whether there is free-will or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rear Naked Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by Ron Burgandy It won't change anything so no. I don't think it will benefit the masses. I think arguing destiny is predetermined will remove personal responsibility from the conscience of too many. You just said it won't change anything, and then in the next sentence you say how it will change people's conscience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sandy Cheeks Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by BustaPheara I've been in the "free will is an illusion" camp for a while. Classical physics does indeed indicate that all events are caused in a deterministic manner. Free will would require that our brains, which are physical objects, somehow be able to step outside of this deterministic system, but there's no justification for that notion. Quantum physics, if it does change any of this, simply tells us that events at the sub-atomic level are probablistic. I don't see how replacing A causes B with A causes B through Z with determinable probablilities really makes free will any more tenable. That sums up how I feel as well. Free Will is very important for some religions, like Christianity, no? Like the idea that you use your free will to sin or not to sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sandy Cheeks Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by Ron Burgandy It won't change anything so no. I don't think it will benefit the masses. I think arguing destiny is predetermined will remove personal responsibility from the conscience of too many. Some religions stress fatalism quite a bit. I'm sure this affects peoples' behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ron Burgandy Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by Rear Naked Don't get stuck on the determinism part. That is secondary to whether there is free-will or not. I believe there is but I'm so far from an expert in this field I just wanted to add my uninformed opinion. So essentially the argument boils down to how random things truly are at their core? Similar to how using a random formula in Excel still yields a predetermined pattern for cell selection? No matter how many levels the programmers can introduce there is still no way to make a black and white computer think illogically and truly select at random? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rear Naked Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by Ron Burgandy I believe there is but I'm so far from an expert in this field I just wanted to add my uninformed opinion. So essentially the argument boils down to how random things truly are at their core? Similar to how using a random formula in Excel still yields a predetermined pattern for cell selection? No matter how many levels the programmers can introduce there is still no way to make a black and white computer think illogically and truly select at random? The OP used determinism to argue against free-will, but was incorrect in using physics to imply determinism. However, we could possibly have no free-will even in a non-determined universe. The argument against free will does not need to take determinism or indeterminism into account. IMO the interesting idea is free-will vs non-free-will. Determinism should be discussed after you agree there is no free-will...but 20th century physics discredits determinism from the start. To be honest, i dont see where you're coming from with the randomness example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sandy Cheeks Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by Ron Burgandy I believe there is but I'm so far from an expert in this field I just wanted to add my uninformed opinion. So essentially the argument boils down to how random things truly are at their core? Similar to how using a random formula in Excel still yields a predetermined pattern for cell selection? No matter how many levels the programmers can introduce there is still no way to make a black and white computer think illogically and truly select at random? What is "truly random"? Computer programs can use pseudorandom number generators. I have also heard of using radioactive sources as as means of generating randomness. Does it make a difference to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sandy Cheeks Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by Rear Naked The OP used determinism to argue against free-will, but was incorrect in using physics to imply determinism. However, we could possibly have no free-will even in a non-determined universe. The argument against free will does not need to take determinism or indeterminism into account. IMO the interesting idea is free-will vs non-free-will. Determinism should be discussed after you agree there is no free-will...but 20th century physics discredits determinism from the start. Indeed. When people, usually religious people, argue for free will, stop them and make them explain where this free will comes from -- what the mechanism behind it is. It will turn out to be God or magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ron Burgandy Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by Sandy Cheeks What is "truly random"? Computer programs can use pseudorandom number generators. I have also heard of using radioactive sources as as means of generating randomness. Does it make a difference to you? I have no idea. I already said I don't know what I'm talking about and that my opinion carries no weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mike LX-R Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 none of us are posting on this thread by use of our own free will. we were predetermined to partake in the nonsensical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sandy Cheeks Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by Ron Burgandy I have no idea. I already said I don't know what I'm talking about and that my opinion carries no weight. Don't back up so quickly, there's a cliff behind you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sandy Cheeks Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by Mike LX-R none of us are posting on this thread by use of our own free will. we were predetermined to partake in the nonsensical. I agree, but is it nonsense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jesse G Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 I don't believe in free will. I believe in a very strong illusion of free will.You can read this, lift your arm up and say "See, I chose to do that of my own free will". I say your were predestined to choose to do that and that the action was already laid out in a timeline before it happened. A smart enough hypothetical "invisible observer" would have been able to utterly predict that future event using only clues from the present moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sandy Cheeks Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by Jesse G A smart enough hypothetical "invisible observer" would have been able to utterly predict that future event using only clues from the present moment. How would they suss out quantum uncertainty? And a question for those folks who understand quantum mechanisms, because I don't: how much quantum uncertainty manifests itself into the macro world? Doe it make any difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mike LX-R Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by Sandy Cheeks I agree, but is it nonsense? it's a discussion about an idea, most of which is rooted in speculative logic. it's all fun for the theater of the mind... but there will be no resounding consensus, and ultimately our lives will not be affected by any would-be conclusions. we'll continue to plug along in the same manner, all of us maintaining a different version of a truth we're willing to believe, none of it making much impact on how we live. yes, I say it non-offensively. it's nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rear Naked Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by Jesse G A smart enough hypothetical "invisible observer" would have been able to utterly predict that future event using only clues from the present moment. Modern physics is not determinate. In other words, nobody will be able to predict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rear Naked Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by Mike LX-R none of us are posting on this thread by use of our own free will. we were predetermined to partake in the nonsensical. Except that we are not predetermined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sandy Cheeks Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by Mike LX-R it's a discussion about an idea, most of which is rooted in speculative logic. it's all fun for the theater of the mind... but there will be no resounding consensus, and ultimately our lives will not be affected by any would-be conclusions. we'll continue to plug along in the same manner, all of us maintaining a different version of a truth we're willing to believe, none of it making much impact on how we live. yes, I say it non-offensively. it's nonsense. No one has ever changed their mind, about their view of the world and what they believe in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mike LX-R Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by Sandy Cheeks No one has ever changed their mind, about their view of the world and what they believe in? does changing one's mind change the way they'll continue to live in this case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mike LX-R Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by Sandy Cheeks No one has ever changed their mind, about their view of the world and what they believe in? does changing one's mind change the way they'll continue to live in this case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rear Naked Posted December 27, 2012 Members Share Posted December 27, 2012 Originally Posted by Mike LX-R does changing one's mind change the way they'll continue to live in this case? You can't imagine a life change if someone stops believing in free will??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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