A question of free will

[TurboRotary13b]

 

Originally Posted by guitarcapo

Your environment influences the decision making process...and since what you encounter is random, your decision making process can not be perfectly predictable and predetermined.

 

Many aspects of our psychology are perfectly predictable though. Anyone who delves into the psychological fields of study can attest to this.. I've read a good bit on Evolutionary Psychology and it has changed my perspective on some {censored}. It's hard for us to see, let alone begin to question, what is at our core.... That is what is the most natural, of anything, to us. Look at how many thousands of years man has existed and even now we barely began to find the mere QUESTIONS we must ask to understand these core elements that comprise the majority of who and what we are. It is true that environment influences our decision making process but even the environment operates within a framework.. We also operate within this same framework and as long as we do the framework determines the limitations of our will... Therefore we still only have conditional free will.

[TurboRotary13b]

 

Originally Posted by guitarcapo

Your environment influences the decision making process...and since what you encounter is random, your decision making process can not be perfectly predictable and predetermined.

 

Many aspects of our psychology are perfectly predictable though. Anyone who delves into the psychological fields of study can attest to this.. I've read a good bit on Evolutionary Psychology and it has changed my perspective on some {censored}. It's hard for us to see, let alone begin to question, what is at our core.... That is what is the most natural, of anything, to us. Look at how many thousands of years man has existed and even now we barely began to find the mere QUESTIONS we must ask to understand these core elements that comprise the majority of who and what we are. It is true that environment influences our decision making process but even the environment operates within a framework.. We also operate within this same framework and as long as we do the framework determines the limitations of our will... Therefore we still only have conditional free will.

[Hegmatronicon]

With smoking - it's not a "choice". It's a chemical addiction.

You WANT to quit - but an addiction (chemical) is a tough thing to break.

[Hegmatronicon]

With smoking - it's not a "choice". It's a chemical addiction.

You WANT to quit - but an addiction (chemical) is a tough thing to break.

[TurboRotary13b]

 

Originally Posted by knucklefux

it's not even a matter of physics. you can't control your own thoughts, can't stop an urge or craving, can't fully control your body.

your brain chemistry is what it is, and you do what you do because of it.

a fine example is someone who smokes, but can't quit no matter how badly they want to or how much they hate it (these people do exist, i suspect there are some among us)...or any other addict, really. they continue a behavior in spite of the negative consequences. how could a being with free will choose to do something that can cause them so much discomfort or even death? simple, remove the free will and the question needs not be asked.

as i said earlier, i find there to be similarities between the adherence to free will and the adherence to religion...in some ways, xian religion hinges on free will. without it, the whole house of cards falls down. i mention this because i think trying to have a conversation about the existence of free will is about as productive as an athiest and a priest discussing the finer points of faith.

 

I think that the concept of free will is comforting to people because it allows them to believe that they are the masters of themselves. It grants an element of control that people NATURALLY (see what I did there?) crave. This is why this concept is frequently a focus point of religion... as is the majority of explicitly human psychological conditions.

[TurboRotary13b]

 

Originally Posted by Hegmatronicon

With smoking - it's not a "choice". It's a chemical addiction.

You WANT to quit - but an addiction (chemical) is a tough thing to break.

 

If you had absolute free will there would be no such thing as addiction.

[Nick H]

 

Originally Posted by guitarcapo

Your environment influences the decision making process...and since what you encounter is random, your decision making process can not be perfectly predictable and predetermined.

 

Who says its random?

[knucklefux]

 

Originally Posted by Hegmatronicon

With smoking - it's not a "choice". It's a chemical addiction.

You WANT to quit - but an addiction (chemical) is a tough thing to break.

 

if there is free will, this is bull{censored}.

you have to choose to put the substance in your body-EVERY TIME. one could just as easily choose the alternative if there were free will.

since there is, as you stated, a chemical interaction that's involved, you've basically agreed with me by saying that chemicals can override choice.

[knucklefux]

 

Originally Posted by TurboRotary13b

I think that the concept of free will is comforting to people because it allows them to believe that they are the masters of themselves. It grants an element of control that people NATURALLY (see what I did there?) crave. This is why this concept is frequently a focus point of religion... as is the majority of explicitly human psychological conditions.

 

i see free will as a necessity for religion, at least for xian religion (in the event that there's a religion of which i am unaware that doesn't require free will in order to exist).

here's why: if you have no free will, it would be pretty {censored}ed up for some folks to go to heaven while others go to hell since no one chose to be who they were or do what they did. without the threat of damnation or the promise of paradise, there's no need for the religion at all...it serves no purpose. so, in order for there to be a xian religion, there MUST be free will.

[Nick H]

 

Originally Posted by TurboRotary13b

If you had absolute free will there would be no such thing as addiction.

 

An addiction is a predisposition to exhibit a certain behavior, but it isn't forced. One can still overcome it using free will.

For example, when we are hungry, our mind forces us to crave food, so in a sense, we are addicted to eating. However many people can overcome it in the form of fasting.

In other words, if you cant oivercome an addiction, its not because you lack free will, its just that your free will isnt strong enough.

[knucklefux]

 

Originally Posted by Nick H

An addiction is a predisposition to exhibit a certain behavior, but it isn't forced. One can still overcome it using free will.

For example, when we are hungry, our mind forces us to crave food, so in a sense, we are addicted to eating. However many people can overcome it in the form of fasting.

In other words, if you cant oivercome an addiction, its not because you lack free will, its just that your free will isnt strong enough.

 

shut the {censored} up donnie, you're out of your element.

despite what that douche from passages at malibu tells you an addict can never NOT be an addict. period.

an addict CAN stop using, but s/he will always be an addict.

[Nick H]

 

Originally Posted by knucklefux

i see free will as a necessity for religion, at least for xian religion (in the event that there's a religion of which i am unaware that doesn't require free will in order to exist).

here's why: if you have no free will, it would be pretty {censored}ed up for some folks to go to heaven while others go to hell since no one chose to be who they were or do what they did. without the threat of damnation or the promise of paradise, there's no need for the religion at all...it serves no purpose. so, in order for there to be a xian religion, there MUST be free will.

 

Its called predistination my friend. I wont say I believe in it, but many christians, jews, etc. teach it.

I follow the chriustian faith, because I think it is the right way to go, and predictibly so. Am I predistined to go to heaven or hell? Ill find out sooner or later.

[knucklefux]

 

Originally Posted by Nick H

Its called predistination my friend. I wont say I believe in it, but many christians, jews, etc. teach it.

I follow the chriustian faith, because I think it is the right way to go, and predictibly so. Am I predistined to go to heaven or hell? Ill find out sooner or later.

 

do you think you just told me something that i didn't already know?

calvinism, son.

[Hegmatronicon]

No. A CHEMICAL addiciton is just that. Chemical.

It's not a choice to be addicted.

Yes - it can be overcome by making the choice to overcome it. But it's not like you just up and decide to beat it and thats that.

It's VERY tough.

PS - if it's bad enough - choosing to beat it by stopping whatever it is you are taking - can kill you.

Is that free will?

[Nick H]

 

Originally Posted by knucklefux

shut the {censored} up donnie, you're out of your element.

despite what that douche from passages at malibu tells you an addict can never NOT be an addict. period.

an addict CAN stop using, but s/he will always be an addict.

 

lulz

read your post several times, still cant make sense of it.

[Hegmatronicon]

Thank you.

 

Originally Posted by knucklefux

shut the {censored} up donnie, you're out of your element.

despite what that douche from passages at malibu tells you an addict can never NOT be an addict. period.

an addict CAN stop using, but s/he will always be an addict.

 

[OverDriven]

 

Originally Posted by Nick H

An addiction is a predisposition to exhibit a certain behavior, but it isn't forced. One can still overcome it using free will.

 

You're thinking about this the wrong way. Your pull to an addictive substance is due to your neuron's acclimation to higher amounts of dopamine. Whether or not you can or will choose to resist that pull depends upon chemical reactions in your brain. People who are hopelessly addicted are literally powerless because the chemical addiction in the brain is stronger than the chemical reaction and signaling that gives us better sense.

In order to get what I'm saying, you have to look at the brain completely as a chemical and electrical reaction, which it IS according to science.

Now, I admit that the one way I could be incorrect is via quantum physics, which some here have mentioned. Quantum physics operates on PROBABILITY. If all possibilities exist, and only become our reality through observation (ie the dual slit experiment), then it could blow a hole in my original post. These are things we're still trying to figure out.

[knucklefux]

 

Originally Posted by Hegmatronicon

No. A CHEMICAL addiciton is just that. Chemical.

It's not a choice to be addicted.

Yes - it can be overcome by making the choice to overcome it. But it's not like you just up and decide to beat it and thats that.

It's VERY tough.

PS - if it's bad enough - choosinto beat it by stopping whatever it is you are taking - can kill you.

Is that free will?

 

you're further stating that chemicals>choice.

your brain runs on chemicals.

i can't make it any more plain.

[knucklefux]

 

Originally Posted by Nick H

lulz

read your post several times, still cant make sense of it.

 

obivously, you're not a golfer.

[TurboRotary13b]

 

Originally Posted by Nick H

An addiction is a predisposition to exhibit a certain behavior, but it isn't forced. One can still overcome it using free will.

For example, when we are hungry, our mind forces us to crave food, so in a sense, we are addicted to eating. However many people can overcome it in the form of fasting.

In other words, if you cant oivercome an addiction, its not because you lack free will, its just that your free will isnt strong enough.

 

If you had absolute free will there would be no such thing as predisposition...

[Nick H]

 

Originally Posted by OverDriven

You're thinking about this the wrong way. Your pull to an addictive substance is due to your neuron's acclimation to higher amounts of dopamine. Whether or not you can or will choose to resist that pull depends upon chemical reactions in your brain. People who are hopelessly addicted are literally powerless because the chemical addiction in the brain is stronger than the chemical reaction and signaling that gives us better sense.

In order to get what I'm saying, you have to look at the brain completely as a chemical and electrical reaction, which it IS according to science.

Now, I admit that the one way I could be incorrect is via quantum physics, which some here have mentioned. Quantum physics operates on PROBABILITY. If all possibilities exist, and only become our reality through observation (ie the dual slit experiment), then it could blow a hole in my original post. These are things we're still trying to figure out.

 

Ah that does make sense, Ill have to explain myself more.

If the chemical addiction is stronger than the chemical reaction to break the addiction, than one lacks the motivation to break the addiction (given that it may be impossible to start with, it boils down to the same concept)

In other words, addicts have free will, just not enough free will to act on free will. Bummer.

[Nick H]

 

Originally Posted by TurboRotary13b

If you had absolute free will there would be no such thing as predisposition...

 

Exactly, I don't believe in absolute free will.

[Hegmatronicon]

Im not arguing one way or the other.

I'm mainly responding to this:

 

a fine example is someone who smokes, but can't quit no matter how badly they want to or how much they hate it (these people do exist, i suspect there are some among us)...or any other addict, really. they continue a behavior in spite of the negative consequences. how could a being with free will choose to do something that can cause them so much discomfort or even death? simple, remove the free will and the question needs not be asked.

 

By saying "people dont CHOOSE to be addicted to something by free will. It's not something they have control over because it's not a choice. Free will existing or not is beside the point. if it DOES exist - it would allow us to make any CHOICE we wanted to - addiction isnt a choice - therefore i dont believe free will applies.

Thats all i am trying (not doing a good job of articulating tho) to say.

 

Originally Posted by knucklefux

you're further stating that chemicals>choice.

your brain runs on chemicals.

i can't make it any more plain.

 

[TurboRotary13b]

 

Originally Posted by Nick H

Exactly, I don't believe in absolute free will.

 

So you believe in free will with limitations?

[knucklefux]

 

Originally Posted by OverDriven

You're thinking about this the wrong way. Your pull to an addictive substance is due to your neuron's acclimation to higher amounts of dopamine. Whether or not you can or will choose to resist that pull depends upon chemical reactions in your brain. People who are hopelessly addicted are literally powerless because the chemical addiction in the brain is stronger than the chemical reaction and signaling that gives us better sense.

In order to get what I'm saying, you have to look at the brain completely as a chemical and electrical reaction, which it IS according to science.

Now, I admit that the one way I could be incorrect is via quantum physics, which some here have mentioned. Quantum physics operates on PROBABILITY. If all possibilities exist, and only become our reality through observation (ie the dual slit experiment), then it could blow a hole in my original post. These are things we're still trying to figure out.

 

i think quantum physics if over rated.

simmer down.

what i'm saying is that quantum physics really only applies to particles. once things start to have some mass, it breaks down. all the idiots you see trying to apply quantum mechanics to big stuff should spend some time trying to solve shrodinger's equation for 3+ particles.