A question of free will

[JR13]

you ever lick your finger after you've stuck it in your ear? tastes gross man.

[JR13]

you ever lick your finger after you've stuck it in your ear? tastes gross man.

[knucklefux]

i've said (abbreviated) versions of the same sort of thing around here and the resounding response was that there's something wrong with me (terms like idiot were used, i believe. considering the source, the irony did not escape me).

i think the concept of free will is appealing in much the same way that religion (and so, immortality) is...the alternative is pretty {censored}ty. nobody wants to hear that they aren't *really* calling the shots

[knucklefux]

i've said (abbreviated) versions of the same sort of thing around here and the resounding response was that there's something wrong with me (terms like idiot were used, i believe. considering the source, the irony did not escape me).

i think the concept of free will is appealing in much the same way that religion (and so, immortality) is...the alternative is pretty {censored}ty. nobody wants to hear that they aren't *really* calling the shots

[zehn]

 

Originally Posted by OverDriven

This is something that I've been thinking about for a long time, and I'm curious what others think.

The human body and brain is very complex machine consisting of many different kinds of chemicals and molecules working in concert to create what we know as life. As a scientific person, I believe (and science agrees) that our choices and actions are a product of unimaginably complex chemical reactions in the brain. When weighing a decision, our brain is actually weighing things like reward and benefit. Which action will release more dopamine in the nucleus accumbens? What are our serotonin levels at the moment? What about our epinephrine levels? This and many more factors are processed by our brains, and we come to our decision based on them. You consciously don't even know it's going on behind the scenes. In our minds, we feel that we have just made a choice. Did we?

Our own chemical reaction started the moment we were born. Our brains started changing in response to the actions of others around us. Those actions (of others) were also governed by chemical reactions. The events happening in our environment here on earth are also governed by physics. These affected us. You can trace it back, and back, and back.

This chain reaction has been happening since the beginning of time. When the universe began (in the big bang, or what ever really formed the universe), all of the particles were set in motion. These particles eventually became light elements, and then stars. Then they collapsed, created heavier elements, and eventually exploded, spewing these heavier elements all over the universe. These elements became planets, soil, water, eventually animals and people through evolution. Because there are laws of physics that they have followed, their current positions (all the way down to the current position of every atom) was predetermined at the moment of the big bang.

What I'm getting at is a question of free will. We all seem to think that we have the power to make choices every moment of every day. We think we are changing our paths. Are we? If the laws of physics are to be believed, all of our actions have been predestined since the beginning of time.

I may not have explained that well, so a better way to think about it is this: All particles must follow SOME law of physics (not that we know all of them currently). Let's say we were to be able to know the exact position of every particle a millisecond after the big bang. If we fed these laws into a supercomputer with unimaginably vast power and also input the positions of the particles just after the big bang, we would be able to calculate the entire past and future of the entire universe, and it would be quite simple really.

That being the case, it could easily be argued that we do not have free will at all. We are all simply perceiving the results of this complex reaction and we only FEEL like we are actively changing it.

Thoughts.

 

I'm no physicist, but this is where I believe you are off. Yes, all physical objects up to and including the smallest nanoparticles must follow the same rules of physics, but I don't believe that they have preordained paths through the Universe.

Even though our human perception of time is flawed, I believe that all particles (or collections of particles like the human body, a car, etc.) are simply reacting to what forces are currently acting upon them at any given point in time. Those actions and reactions are governed within some basic framework.

Do I think we have free will? Yes, but only in a relative sense.

[zehn]

 

Originally Posted by OverDriven

This is something that I've been thinking about for a long time, and I'm curious what others think.

The human body and brain is very complex machine consisting of many different kinds of chemicals and molecules working in concert to create what we know as life. As a scientific person, I believe (and science agrees) that our choices and actions are a product of unimaginably complex chemical reactions in the brain. When weighing a decision, our brain is actually weighing things like reward and benefit. Which action will release more dopamine in the nucleus accumbens? What are our serotonin levels at the moment? What about our epinephrine levels? This and many more factors are processed by our brains, and we come to our decision based on them. You consciously don't even know it's going on behind the scenes. In our minds, we feel that we have just made a choice. Did we?

Our own chemical reaction started the moment we were born. Our brains started changing in response to the actions of others around us. Those actions (of others) were also governed by chemical reactions. The events happening in our environment here on earth are also governed by physics. These affected us. You can trace it back, and back, and back.

This chain reaction has been happening since the beginning of time. When the universe began (in the big bang, or what ever really formed the universe), all of the particles were set in motion. These particles eventually became light elements, and then stars. Then they collapsed, created heavier elements, and eventually exploded, spewing these heavier elements all over the universe. These elements became planets, soil, water, eventually animals and people through evolution. Because there are laws of physics that they have followed, their current positions (all the way down to the current position of every atom) was predetermined at the moment of the big bang.

What I'm getting at is a question of free will. We all seem to think that we have the power to make choices every moment of every day. We think we are changing our paths. Are we? If the laws of physics are to be believed, all of our actions have been predestined since the beginning of time.

I may not have explained that well, so a better way to think about it is this: All particles must follow SOME law of physics (not that we know all of them currently). Let's say we were to be able to know the exact position of every particle a millisecond after the big bang. If we fed these laws into a supercomputer with unimaginably vast power and also input the positions of the particles just after the big bang, we would be able to calculate the entire past and future of the entire universe, and it would be quite simple really.

That being the case, it could easily be argued that we do not have free will at all. We are all simply perceiving the results of this complex reaction and we only FEEL like we are actively changing it.

Thoughts.

 

I'm no physicist, but this is where I believe you are off. Yes, all physical objects up to and including the smallest nanoparticles must follow the same rules of physics, but I don't believe that they have preordained paths through the Universe.

Even though our human perception of time is flawed, I believe that all particles (or collections of particles like the human body, a car, etc.) are simply reacting to what forces are currently acting upon them at any given point in time. Those actions and reactions are governed within some basic framework.

Do I think we have free will? Yes, but only in a relative sense.

[mamberg]

So if I decide to eat lunch on Monday and Wednesday this week, and Tuesday and Thursday next week - that is the only choice I could have made?

Does not seem plausible.

[mamberg]

So if I decide to eat lunch on Monday and Wednesday this week, and Tuesday and Thursday next week - that is the only choice I could have made?

Does not seem plausible.

[Nick H]

 

Originally Posted by mamberg

So if I decide to eat lunch on Monday and Wednesday this week, and Tuesday and Thursday next week - that is the only choice I could have made?

Does not seem plausible.

 

If for some reason you are busy every day except those days, then predictably you would, because there is no reason for you to not. Of course, most reasoning is alot less cut and dry than that, but none are truly random.

If you flip the same coin twice, the exact same way, in the exact same place, it should land on the exact same side. Difficult to predict, yes. Random, no.

[Nick H]

 

Originally Posted by mamberg

So if I decide to eat lunch on Monday and Wednesday this week, and Tuesday and Thursday next week - that is the only choice I could have made?

Does not seem plausible.

 

If for some reason you are busy every day except those days, then predictably you would, because there is no reason for you to not. Of course, most reasoning is alot less cut and dry than that, but none are truly random.

If you flip the same coin twice, the exact same way, in the exact same place, it should land on the exact same side. Difficult to predict, yes. Random, no.

[mamberg]

I often don't eat lunch - by choice.

I don't think that it is hard coded by environmental factors.

Lets say I make the decision above right now for next week and the week after.

And also decide to switch the days the following two Weeks.

If I stick to it - that means I couldn't have made any other choices????

Still not buying it.

[mamberg]

I often don't eat lunch - by choice.

I don't think that it is hard coded by environmental factors.

Lets say I make the decision above right now for next week and the week after.

And also decide to switch the days the following two Weeks.

If I stick to it - that means I couldn't have made any other choices????

Still not buying it.

[Kardula]

if my perception is my reality, then it matters not that I have free will, only the illusion of it.

[Kardula]

if my perception is my reality, then it matters not that I have free will, only the illusion of it.

[Ovid9]

I'm no physicist either, but from my paltry understanding is that while "classical" physics allows for the prediction of where things will be and what things will do "quantum physics" then blows that to kingdom come allowing for all sorts of bizarre things to occur though most often on a nano scale.

So, while I think the interaction of chemicals in our bodies, the makeup of our DNA and genes plays a huge part in determining our life and "choices" I do believe we have a measure of free will as well.

*waits for someone with physics credentials to show up and laugh at the history major*

[Ovid9]

I'm no physicist either, but from my paltry understanding is that while "classical" physics allows for the prediction of where things will be and what things will do "quantum physics" then blows that to kingdom come allowing for all sorts of bizarre things to occur though most often on a nano scale.

So, while I think the interaction of chemicals in our bodies, the makeup of our DNA and genes plays a huge part in determining our life and "choices" I do believe we have a measure of free will as well.

*waits for someone with physics credentials to show up and laugh at the history major*

[Nick H]

 

Originally Posted by mamberg

I often don't eat lunch - by choice.

I don't think that it is hard coded by environmental factors.

Lets say I make the decision above right now for next week and the week after.

And also decide to switch the days the following two Weeks.

If I stick to it - that means I couldn't have made any other choices????

Still not buying it.

 

Yes, because there is still a reason that you chose to do one thing over another. No one ever does anything for no reason, not because they cant, they just dont. So in a sense you cant, but not because its physically impossible.

[Nick H]

 

Originally Posted by mamberg

I often don't eat lunch - by choice.

I don't think that it is hard coded by environmental factors.

Lets say I make the decision above right now for next week and the week after.

And also decide to switch the days the following two Weeks.

If I stick to it - that means I couldn't have made any other choices????

Still not buying it.

 

Yes, because there is still a reason that you chose to do one thing over another. No one ever does anything for no reason, not because they cant, they just dont. So in a sense you cant, but not because its physically impossible.

[RUExp?]

[RUExp?]

[Sillypeoples]

Most anti free will arguments stem about intellectual justification for bad behaviour.

I'd explain further but I suspect the attention span on this forum is about as long as it takes to hold ones breath after a bong hit.

[Sillypeoples]

Most anti free will arguments stem about intellectual justification for bad behaviour.

I'd explain further but I suspect the attention span on this forum is about as long as it takes to hold ones breath after a bong hit.

[zehn]

 

Originally Posted by Sillypeoples

Most anti free will arguments stem about intellectual justification for bad behaviour.

I'd explain further but I suspect the attention span on this forum is about as long as it takes to hold ones breath after a bong hit.

 

Doesn't really require further explanation, anybody with a shred of intelligence could see that.

[zehn]

 

Originally Posted by Sillypeoples

Most anti free will arguments stem about intellectual justification for bad behaviour.

I'd explain further but I suspect the attention span on this forum is about as long as it takes to hold ones breath after a bong hit.

 

Doesn't really require further explanation, anybody with a shred of intelligence could see that.

[ron2112]

 

Originally Posted by ComOp

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

 

Beat me to it!!!