Members t60 fan Posted March 27, 2006 Members Share Posted March 27, 2006 Thanks knockwood, I think. I actually don't mind dissenting opinions (from mine). I come here (at least partially) to sound out and test my opinions, see if they hold water, so to speak. You raise a great point that Martin has been able to get away with a HPL git branded "Martin" without serious repercussion more better than I for one would have predicted. No doubt some were a little disgruntled, but I haven't seen too many Marty's in dumpsters lately. Yeah, as Git-Geek with a very open mind (that means I own and love a Taylor) *tries hard not to think about twinkees* I have in a retaliatory sort of way enjoyed the SHW-fiasco. Nonetheless, I am impressed beyond words at the body of work Martin has created while remaining midwest-USA. Awesome fails miserably as a word to describe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members t60 fan Posted March 27, 2006 Members Share Posted March 27, 2006 Oh wait, I forgot the title of this thread. What I meant was they are over-rated; in fact they suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tony Burns Posted March 27, 2006 Members Share Posted March 27, 2006 If your not crazy about Martins , most of us Martinities wont get too pissed off about it - were all one big happy family here - your kinda like the cousin everyone hopes doesn't show up at the family reunion ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members t60 fan Posted March 27, 2006 Members Share Posted March 27, 2006 Eddie! Hey Clark, bet you could use a cold one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted March 27, 2006 Members Share Posted March 27, 2006 Ya know, you guys got me wondering about what Martin's overhead actually is. They're located in an area of eastern Pennsylvania that is well north of the Philadelphia metroplex yet bordering New Jersey. I'm originally from slightly north of Nazareth in an area that I would qualify as "depressed" (Wilkes-Barre) and I'm wondering how expensive it really is to operate a moderately-sized business like CF Martin & Co. in the general Allentown/Bethlehem area. Doing some digging... ... interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members t60 fan Posted March 27, 2006 Members Share Posted March 27, 2006 Originally posted by kwakatak Ya know, you guys got me wondering about what Martin's overhead actually is. They're located in an area of eastern Pennsylvania that is well north of the Philadelphia metroplex yet bordering New Jersey. I'm originally from slightly north of Nazareth in an area that I would qualify as "depressed" (Wilkes-Barre) and I'm wondering how expensive it really is to operate a moderately-sized business like CF Martin & Co. in the general Allentown/Bethlehem area. Doing some digging...... interesting. Let me know if they need anybody of modest-to-questionable talents and intellect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted March 27, 2006 Members Share Posted March 27, 2006 Originally posted by t60 fan Let me know if they need anybody of modest-to-questionable talents and intellect. Actually, there is a position open there now and it fits this threadMartin opening Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members t60 fan Posted March 27, 2006 Members Share Posted March 27, 2006 Well, I've got lot's of opinions, like telling people what to do (especially with their money) and can second guess with the best of them. I wish I were qualified, sounds very cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tony Burns Posted March 27, 2006 Members Share Posted March 27, 2006 I sopose trying figure out what it really costs to build guitars is a fun proposition - I use to be Producton Planner for Fisher price Toys ( a zillion years ago ) , so im kinda up on stuff like that -- let me take a shot at it --please fill in what i miss-- Labor,benefits, taxes, utilities , material acuisition, finishes, sandpaer, machinery, accounting ,etc, etc( materials instock for future instruments is not like going to your lumber yard, so theres alot tied up in that- now their stocking up on African Mahogany since its on the Endangered B list .) storage of finished stock-cases- strings, etc, etc --- Thou im not happy with the Gotoh tuners they put on my Om-28v , i can understand trying to keep the costs down -- If the guitar lists at 4000 - the dealer more than likely gets the instrument for 1/2 plus shipping -- ( if they have it in stock ) so for that 2000 they get for the instrument ( martin or other builder )I dont think they see a couple hundred bucks profit-The dealer you buy it from makes more than the original manufacturer ( in most cases - unless he has a high overhead) when its all said and done -- smaller luthiers can keep their costs down some what, but they would have to sell a simalar guitar for alot more, to make a go of it -- the Chinese are another matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members da mayor Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Actually, there is a position open there now and it fits this thread Gee, all that and the guy has to be the factory tour guide in his spare time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Jasmine, back to your original question about the Authentic - here is a thread from the Martin group - as I said before this plain jane little git has a lot of people pretty stirred up. I wish they could get the shootout link working again so you could judge for yourself D-18A vs D-18GE The GE is thought by many as the best Martin dread on the market today, HD-28 not withstanding, but when I heard the A it was just a different animal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Andrewrg Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 In the US the typical dealer price is 40% off list which brings prices down to more reasonable levels.If Martin were to start losing sales in a big way prices would soon come down.The guitars are only overpriced if you are unwilling to pay what they are asking.They withdraw models which dont sell in significant enough numbers,the CEO5 comes to mind which sold 367 total.They just werent"traditional"enough for the average conservative Martin buyer I guess.The signature models are aimed more towards the collector,and again,they either build them in a short run or until people stop buying them.I dont think they were prepared for the popularity of the OOO28EC which continues to sell in good numbers-personally I hated the thing and sold mine after a week.Bottom line on cost as usual,you pay your money and take your choice.Martin are doing no more than the competition-if there`s a market niche to be exploited they go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by Tony Burns I sopose trying figure out what it really costs to build guitars is a fun proposition - Tony, I can't begin to offer estimates on cost but I think it is fun to contrast different manufacturer and (our perceived) philosophies of their businesses. Martin and Taylor for example - I think Bob Taylor has brought guitar making into the modern era with CNC machining, careful use of wood (multiple piece necks), alternate tone woods (sapele, koa, etc), new finishing methods (UV cured, satin finishes), as well as his marketing. I see this when I look at my 314, $1500 list guitar, but I can see all the cost cutting - the top doesn't match and isn't well sanded, I personally don't like satin finish (so I buffed it), I can see the joints in the neck, sapele just isn't African mahogany. But it plays sweet and was a gift from a wonderful person - and I play it a lot. Martin, with the family history and heritage, is the icon of traditional guitars - lots of hand assembly, carefully selected woods (as opposed to "select"), models that made sense and a tone to die for. But lately I see more weird models than I can shake a pick at, a resonator, painted guitars, tone woods that I've never heard of (some not from trees) and construction methods that they learned from Henry Ford or Bob Taylor. Last year Martin made 70,000 guitars.... When they make an 00-18A I'll probably buy one. Contrast that with the small factories today - Collings or Santa Cruise or Froggy or all the others - these people are using quality materials and methods that hold cost down, still produce a reasonable number if instruments so you and I can go into a store and play them, at prices that might be acceptable for a fine instrument. I hope these brands can prosper because we need them. You mentioned the imports, we need them too - for new players and players on a budget and people who need a campfire git and all the other reasons - we need well made price point guitars. We can leave the socio-political-economic discussion out of this - but we need guitars at these prices. And last, and far from least, are the individual luthiers who make a dozen or so instruments a year, largely on commission, out of the finest material and using traditional methods. Thank goodness there is a market for these beautiful guitars because the world would be a sad place without them and the craftsmen that build them. Someone said that Martin had it wrong - this is the Golden Era of guitars in the US and I agree. We are blessed by having so many wonderful choices - so many guitars, so little time. Sorry to ramble, beats the heck out of the work I'm supposed to be doing.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Queequeg Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 "List price" is nothing more than a peg against which the reseller's discount is figured, in much the same way, although more specific, as the 40% we have been bandying about with respect to the end- users' price. I see some similarities between what GM has done and CFMartin. Lots of duplication, lots of brand confusion. Yes, we have seen some trimming at GM with the elimination of Oldsmobile, and an attempt to get back to basics but probably too late to save the patient, at least as we have known it in the past. I have two Martins signed by CFM4, but there are 1000s of them signed so the impact has been cheapened and it no longer means anything to me. They are stoking the machine, but where are they going? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tony Burns Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 yes , yes , yes - i had a chance to talk with a music rep about a week ago, and he mentioned that most of your US musical instrument companies are under hard times, because of the Chinese imports and other cheap goods flooding the market - and the quest for quality at lower prices. Which is why Guild is now under Fender as well as a half a dozen other companies recently - Martins smart for trying to keep their costs down, not crazy about putting cheap tuners on their guitars - but everything else is up to par as to where it should be, and the tuners arnt that bad ( close any ways ) buying large quantities of materials as well as farming out some stuff is smart -( a super example is Gibson )- just about every company is doing that - look at your average car company, electronics- computers etc, are coming in from the orient lke crazy ( to keep the cost down ) - Wondering if my TKL case for my OM-28v- didnt come from the orient ( they say US, but Ive heard that before ) Martin was smart to make some of their low end stuff in Mexico - keeps their profits up, and im betting smoothes things over when the money is tight at the Nazareth Plant , and i dont want to see them fold like Guild ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarcapo Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by studyscoot just a side question. Why is it socially acceptable for average Americans to get pissed off at more wealthy Americans for no other reason other than their wealth? Because rich people suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knockwood Posted March 29, 2006 Members Share Posted March 29, 2006 Originally posted by guitarcapo Because rich people suck. There is also that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JasmineTea Posted March 30, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 30, 2006 Thanks everyone for posting on this thread. I'll get around to reading it one of these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members derivicus Posted March 31, 2006 Members Share Posted March 31, 2006 Martin guitars are highly overrated these days. They almost target the foolish and uneducated. Not that they don't make some great guitars, but there are so many as good or better for a fraction of the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knockwood Posted March 31, 2006 Members Share Posted March 31, 2006 Originally posted by derivicus They almost target the foolish and uneducated. Describes me perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tony Burns Posted March 31, 2006 Members Share Posted March 31, 2006 Martin guitars are highly overrated these days. They almost target the foolish and uneducated. Not that they don't make some great guitars, but there are so many as good or better for a fraction of the price. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Not sure what guitars, manufactured in this country your talking about. Especially when everyone compares what they make with Martin- Dreadnaught, OM etc, etc. Oh yes I played some fantastic instruments , many of which werent martins- but there still the gold standard- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cldplytkmn Posted March 31, 2006 Members Share Posted March 31, 2006 Originally posted by derivicus Martin guitars are highly overrated these days. They almost target the foolish and uneducated. Not that they don't make some great guitars, but there are so many as good or better for a fraction of the price. they're worth whatever people are willing to pay for them... period... it'd be so much easier in life if everything was laid out in separate piles of "good" "better" and "best"... but there's things like opinions and preferences that kind of screw that up... i'm not sure how its possible to say that there's so many 'as good or better'... its just a statement of your preference, presented as fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Queequeg Posted March 31, 2006 Members Share Posted March 31, 2006 Originally posted by derivicus They almost target the foolish and uneducated. winner: top 10 most ridiculous postings this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cldplytkmn Posted March 31, 2006 Members Share Posted March 31, 2006 i guess being the gold standard of the industry means people will either love you or hate you... or think you are ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members t60 fan Posted March 31, 2006 Members Share Posted March 31, 2006 Why does one have to be uneducated to be foolish? I am actually fairly educated (well, I have a Bachelor's degree if that means "educated"), but that in no way excludes me from being foolish. Now, back to the task of SLAM!ing Martins: I like to toss muffins into the soundholes of LSM models... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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