Members Melodeous Posted July 14, 2009 Members Share Posted July 14, 2009 Hokey smokes, Hudman. You've got some serious taste there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted July 14, 2009 Members Share Posted July 14, 2009 The guitar I'm playing in my avatar is $6500.00. I can sort of understand paying that kind of money for vintage pre-war Brazilian whatevers, but what does a luthier do to a modern guitar to make it worth $6500? Material cost is what? $400? So that leaves $6000+ for labor. Does that mean he spent 100 hours hand-tuning the top by carving braces and taping pennies to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knockwood Posted July 14, 2009 Members Share Posted July 14, 2009 I can sort of understand paying that kind of money for vintage pre-war Brazilian whatevers, but what does a luthier do to a modern guitar to make it worth $6500?Material cost is what? $400?So that leaves $6000+ for labor. Does that mean he spent 100 hours hand-tuning the top by carving braces and taping pennies to it? I might tend to agree with this kind of thinking if making a good guitar were much, much easier. But I think perhaps the incredible amount of skill required to produce a first rate acoustic guitar is being vastly underestimated. Folks with the skill and discipline necessary to produce such instruments consistently are incredibly rare. Also, when figuring labor cost, a dude who makes a $6500 guitar is in most cases not operating alone. That kind of price is typical of Goodall or Collings, for example, but these are not individual guys making guitars. They have employees, factories (however small), overhead. While the price of an individual boutique instrument may seem extravagant to some, I would doubt we're looking at an immense windfall of profit for the luthier unless we're talking about a guy like James Olson, but how many guys possess that level of skill? In general, while the more successful small builders are probably making a decent living, I don't think you're likely to see any of them featured on an episode of "Cribs" anytime soon. When you make guitars that sell for $6500, they're not exactly flying out of the factory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Melodeous Posted July 14, 2009 Members Share Posted July 14, 2009 It means he did that and a lot more. One of the most important things a luthier can do is carefully select the woods he uses. These are not just hanging on every other tree with his name carved in the trunk. These are selected from the finest instrument grade woods available and they're not cheap. They cost a lot more than anything you can mail order from Stew-Mac. And, they are not always readily available. The rarer the finest instrument grades, the more they cost just like anything else. Diamonds of the same weight and cut from the same master should cost the same right? They are graded on color and least number of inclusions. The better the color and fewer inclusions the more their value goes up. Same for woods with regard to their species, cut, color, strength/weight ratio and uniformity of grain. Go to any home improvement store and find yourself 2X4X8 boards without some kind of grain deformity. Pretty rare right? These instrument grade woods are expensive. The rest you call labor as if to say they whip these things out 10 a day with a bowl of rice in one hand like a pac rim producer. I understand your knee-jerk about the price so I suggest you do a little research and find this stuff out for yourself. You don't need to take anyone's word here. You teach yourself to play guitar, teach yourself about what goes into making a fine instrument - with both hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted July 14, 2009 Members Share Posted July 14, 2009 I can sort of understand paying that kind of money for vintage pre-war Brazilian whatevers, but what does a luthier do to a modern guitar to make it worth $6500?Material cost is what? $400?So that leaves $6000+ for labor. Does that mean he spent 100 hours hand-tuning the top by carving braces and taping pennies to it? I played that very guitar (a Tim McKnight dreadnought with garandillo back & sides and a lutz spruce top IIRC) and hell yea it's worth it. Here's the cost sheet: http://www.mcknightguitars.com/prices.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knockwood Posted July 14, 2009 Members Share Posted July 14, 2009 I played that very guitar (a Tim McKnight dreadnought with garandillo back & sides and a lutz spruce top IIRC) and hell yea it's worth it.How much did TM charge Hud for the photo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BROLEX Posted July 14, 2009 Members Share Posted July 14, 2009 I can sort of understand paying that kind of money for vintage pre-war Brazilian whatevers, but what does a luthier do to a modern guitar to make it worth $6500?Material cost is what? $400?So that leaves $6000+ for labor. Does that mean he spent 100 hours hand-tuning the top by carving braces and taping pennies to it? 80% of The Chinese can live on $5 dollars a day. why cant we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted July 14, 2009 Members Share Posted July 14, 2009 One of the most important things a luthier can do is carefully select the woods he uses.My last house was built with tight-grained reclaimed old-growth Douglas Fir. I know expensive woods. But I don't think even the best master-grade stuff becomes a huge cost factor when we're talking $6500 gits.Supply and demand for the specific luthier's work is probably the biggest factor. I think these guys have pretty good margins, and they price them for what the market will bear.That doesn't mean you're getting ripped off. But the price isn't a function of the build economics as much as it's a function of demand. Same for good art. Material and labor costs simply aren't a factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hudman Posted July 14, 2009 Members Share Posted July 14, 2009 I played that very guitar (a Tim McKnight dreadnought with garandillo back & sides and a lutz spruce top IIRC) and hell yea it's worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hudman Posted July 14, 2009 Members Share Posted July 14, 2009 My last house was built with tight-grained reclaimed old-growth Douglas Fir. I know expensive woods. But I don't think even the best master-grade stuff becomes a huge cost factor when we're talking $6500 gits. Supply and demand for the specific luthier's work is probably the biggest factor. I think these guys have pretty good margins, and they price them for what the market will bear. That doesn't mean you're getting ripped off. But the price isn't a function of the build economics as much as it's a function of demand. Same for good art. Material and labor costs simply aren't a factor. I used to think the same way until I learned more about guitar building. You paid your electrician and plumber more per hour than Tim is making. The difference is just about anyone with basic skills could wire and plumb your house. I can't say the same about building a high quality guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted July 14, 2009 Members Share Posted July 14, 2009 How much did TM charge Hud for the photo? Ya got me. The McKnights are actually very generous people so I figure they'd probably be flattered that he used the pic as his avatar. I gotta tell ya that Hud was really bonding with that guitar though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted July 14, 2009 Members Share Posted July 14, 2009 The builder, Tim McKnight builds 4 guitars at a time. It takes him 4 months to build them. He has a 24 month waiting list. Then his guitars are too cheap. Tell him to raise his prices. The day I get GAS for a $6500 git will be the day I start taking piano lessons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FlyingPancreas Posted July 14, 2009 Members Share Posted July 14, 2009 I don't understand all this obsession with money when really the true measure of a guitar's greatness obviously is its degree of shininess and oh man my guitar is shiny for serious BEHOLD THE SHEEN many times Denny and I have witnessed people leave guitar shops with very expensive guitars that were dull and we laughed and laughed and then Denny would buy me a Zagnut bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted July 14, 2009 Members Share Posted July 14, 2009 Then his guitars are too cheap. Tell him to raise his prices. The day I get GAS for a $6500 git is the day I start taking piano lessons. Have you seen the price for a good baby grand? They make $3K Martins look like cheap stuff. BTW, my wife's been pushing for a recycled school/church upright. This does not bode well for my plans for 40th birthday GAS. I'd like to get a mid- to high-end guitar before I get arthritis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted July 14, 2009 Members Share Posted July 14, 2009 Ya know, I just realized that this thread is useless without pics. Beside McKnight guitars, I've also secretly admired Paragon guitars. I feel funny about linking to one of my favorite images of their guitars, so here's the URL: http://www.nanwob.net/guitars/v/paragon/CocoSlopeD/vd0ozl_1_.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pascal Posted July 14, 2009 Members Share Posted July 14, 2009 In the world of classical guitars $6000 is nothing special. In my experience, there is clear a trend, yes: expensive guitars tend to be better than cheap guitars. There are exceptions, of course, and taste as well as disposable income will mean that YMMV when it comes to deciding whether it's worth it or not.Like someone already mentionned earlier, I personally have no problem saving and cashing the equivalent 1-2 months of income once in a while to buy a guitar I want. Years ago it used to get me a run-of-the-mill Takamine, now it'd be a luthier guitar. In the end it's the same proportion of my income, and yes it does make a great difference in terms of quality. And pleasure. In particular for acoustic guitars (I'd be more reluctant to spend big sums of money on a solidbody).It doesn't mean that cheap guitars aren't good enough and couldn't do the job... only that more expensive ones are usually even more fun, so if I can afford them, why not? disclaimer: my own experience is mostly with Selmer-style, classical and archtop guitars. Not really with steel-string flat tops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guildfire Posted July 14, 2009 Members Share Posted July 14, 2009 $6500 guitar? I don't think so. Would I like one? Sure but I'm not going to shell out that kind of hard earned coin for a guitar no matter who good it is. Especially when you can find much less expensive guitars that sound as good. Once you get past a certain threshold the incremental tone differences become very expensive. The tone increments creep while the cost skyrockets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chordchunker Posted July 14, 2009 Members Share Posted July 14, 2009 $6500 is the starting price for a good handmade USA archtop. They go way on up in price from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members totamus Posted July 14, 2009 Members Share Posted July 14, 2009 Its like everything else. If you want the very best, you have to be willing to pay for it. The old addage is getting the last 5% is 95% of the cost. That is true in nearly everything. Spending a lot on a guitar because you want bragging rights (ie cork sniffing) is just silly. Spending a lot because that last 5% is worth it to you is simply the price of your taste. If you need to ask if it is worth the money, well, I would guess that you are not really driven to have that last lttle bit, regardless of price. You cannot achieve economy of scale in guitars that are built as an individual. Whether it is worth it is entirely up to you. My tastes do not require an uber-expensive guitar. I'd just spill beer on it at a festival/gig/camp out. I wouldn't want it if I was afraid to take it to those places, as that is where the music happens... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members crashclc Posted July 14, 2009 Members Share Posted July 14, 2009 geez can this thread still be going? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sangemon Posted July 14, 2009 Members Share Posted July 14, 2009 BTW, my wife's been pushing for a recycled school/church upright. This does not bode well for my plans for 40th birthday GAS. I'd like to get a mid- to high-end guitar before I get arthritis. Hell, I'd look at that as an opportunity..."OK, honey, we can get the upright, and then next year...." And Bob's yer uncle, HD-35 in 2010. So it's your 41st birthday? Why quibble? Oh! And BTW, a friend of mine is moving to El Salvador and is letting me have her Baby Grand for the cost of shipping from Santa Fe, about $1300. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FlyingPancreas Posted July 14, 2009 Members Share Posted July 14, 2009 shiny > expensive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terry Allan Hall Posted July 14, 2009 Members Share Posted July 14, 2009 BTW, my wife's been pushing for a recycled school/church upright. This does not bode well for my plans for 40th birthday GAS. I'd like to get a mid- to high-end guitar before I get arthritis.Check your local Craigslist, particularily the "free" section...around here, there's nearly always a few free pianos, many in need only of tuning.A case of beer will usually entice a truck-owning buddie to be helpful (burp)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted July 14, 2009 Members Share Posted July 14, 2009 Check your local Craigslist, particularily the "free" section...around here, there's nearly always a few free pianos, many in need only of tuning. A case of beer will usually entice a truck-owning buddie to be helpful (burp)... She did and there was a couple for around $400. It's not the price though, it's the principle. We literally do not have anyplace to put one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guildfire Posted July 15, 2009 Members Share Posted July 15, 2009 She did and there was a couple for around $400. It's not the price though, it's the principle. We literally do not have anyplace to put one. Good, then you can tell her a new guitar takes up much less space than a piano. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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